Arcadia Discussion Zone

OK. I'm really getting tired of this. I see people saying this or that looks like a "crista". Except: nobody's defined what one is, what one looks like, or what it is supposed to represent or symbolize. I would post this on the RlC-Masters "crista" subforum, but it looks like it's undergoing ... "maintenance". What really amazes me is I've gone through that subforum itself looking for answers to the below questions, but I still don't see them. I see people talking about something that no one has really defined or explained. That to this academic is insufficient.

This is not an invitation for insults. You can fling them if you want -- whatever floats your boat. I'm tired of that nonsense. I'd prefer clarity and direct answers. It would be so refreshing to see them for once. What I don't get is people referring to something, and then saying something looks like it, without saying what the thing they're supposed to look like, looks like ?!? To me this is a silly game.

So far we have been told a crista looks like a chi rho



An irminsul



A fleur de lis



The crest (cresta) on a helmet



A caduceus



The oriflamme



These are not all the same symbol. They don't even look to me like variants on the same symbol. I'm sorry. I don't get it. In this case, you can blame the student all you want, but I still think the explanations to date of the theory and concept have been flawed.

They don't all represent the same things. The oriflamme had flames on it, some think they were in the image of the sun, but this is debated. The fleur-de-lis is a lily/iris, it was before Clovis and Christianity, it has represented that back in ancient times. The irminsul is a tree of life. The caduceus is a symbol of Asclepius. How are all these things supposed to represent the sun?

Once again I ask -- pictures are lovely and we would love to see some, but don't direct me to go through all 47 pages of the Chi Rho thread again ...

1) WHAT IS A CRISTA? Answer in three sentences or less. If you cannot explain what it IS in three sentences or less, I think it's too complex to have ever existed and may belong in the same realm as the Jabberwock.

2) WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE? SHOW ME A PICTURE. Just show me a picture, don't tell me to rotate somebody else's, mix together this and that, just show me a picture of what a CRISTA LOOKS LIKE.

3) What does it REPRESENT? I know it's a solar symbol. Does it represent
a) a solar phenomenon (solar halo etc.) seen in the sky by Constantine
b) the "cresting" of sunrise - the sun over the horizon
or
c) a depiction of the solstices and the equinoxes and solar motion through the sky (BTW that theory traces back to Plato and the Timaeus)

4) Is it
a) a symbol which can be depicted on a variety of objects or in a variety of forms
b) a series of objects of which there might be many
or
c) an object of which one and only one exists. If only one exists, why? Could not one construct one that looks exactly like it? And why would that not serve the same purpose?

5) What was it used for? Does it have some connection with Babylonian or Egyptian cults of the dead? We know the Egyptians analogized the rising of the sun with the rising of the dead in the underworld. This is the only logical connection I can think of between a solar symbol and cults of the dead.

6) On what basis could we conclude Sauniere ever had it? I understand there is a depiction of what some think is "it" in his church. Fine. Is that sufficient proof that he had "it". Whatever "it" was? If he had it, and it's a singular object, where is it now?

You know, I'm sorry. I just see people saying this looks like a crista, that might have been used like a crista, this or that is a crista, but how come none of the above questions have been precisely explained or clarified? How can one know if something looks like it, if one can't explain what it looked like? How can one say something was used like it, if one can't explain what it was used for?

Ask a certain sect mate...they are pulling out all the stops to locate it.

The object that was "found, used and held on to tightly" by Saunière was searched for & found after his death by a certain Authority and secreted away to another place well out of harm's way.

In the last few years it has been re-located...the said object is well guarded and practically impossible to photograph...but it has been verified.

It is not an object that should be brought back into the mainstream and imho is much better off where it is...if a certain sect locate it...all hell could break loose.

Believe it if you want...or not.

WOW!

Double WOW WOW! And you're one of the guardians of this terrible secret Shiela.

Have ya seen it? What's it like? C'mon you can tell us, just between you, me and Google.

You must be looking over your shoulder, wondering if there's a Sectarian coming for you.

Sheila, think about it.

A --- You haven't seen it, you don't know what it does, you don't know for certain that Sauniere had it.

All you have is someone told you this.

(snip)

B ---- There's a body down a hole somewhere, we don't know who it is, where it is or who put it here just that someone told you it exists.

So is it

A
B
C None of the above?

It's not up to me to say any more....if someone else wishes to, they will join the conversation...if not...that's it.

quote the Raven-nevermore, er uh , whatever else he seek these daze...I think it's too complex to have ever existed and may belong in the same realm as the Jabberwock.

ya know Seeker, yer takin' advantage of ole jake's sense of humor AND I re...ze..mble that remark, hehehe.

I brought up that very same point way back when so don't feel alone Seeker. The Christa as spun by the spin meisters of the penance-penitence krew is their own brand of jabberwock. If ya re-call the Queen of farts, er, um, Hearts talking to Alice regarding truth the Queen said it was what she wanted it to be.

Alice did a reverse Voltaire and called her bluff by declaring, yer nothing but a deck of cards, like in maybe ...comedians? Voltaire defined history as a pack of tricks played on the dead, was that 'pack', actually a ref to a deck of cards, Tarot style?

Ya see Seeker, once ya enter the Martrix portal called the RLC enigma yer not in control any nore, you are controlled, hehehe, hahaha, hohoho, hum. Sheila just called yer bluff dude.

Yo Roscoe + Seeker, in this RLC matrix the penance-penitents sect conjured up, just like the Queen of farts, the sect decides on a whim what a Christa is, no more, no less, to quote the Raven... nevermore. Poe definitely knew what toking a roach could do. It may have something to do with that necropolis they so desperately long to connect with.

What sect? The Pastafarians? The Oddfellows? The Purple Penitents of Penzance?



Ooooh.... an Authority. Well, he was a Capital Letter Person, he must have been important.



By whom? Ninjas? The CIA?



Hot damn, the last time I saw people acting this bizarre, mysterious, and evasive, they thought they had found the Ark of the Covenant near RlC.

How can I know whether or not to believe in something if nobody will say what it is? THAT'S STEP ONE.

If we're referring to who I think we are, well, all I can say is I've encountered a lot of people along the way researching this subject who claim to have secret, insider knowledge.

The fascinating thing is, most of them, at least, weren't jerks. I thought that and being an ascended master were mutually exclusive. I guess not.

BTW, since the existence of this thing is based on Anne Lombard Jourdan's writings, has anybody attempted to kidnap and kill her for revealing it?

I guess not, since as I keep saying, her crista is an icon or image representing an idea which can exist in multiple forms - not a singular object.

'Isaac Ben Jacob' also removed 'himself' from Facebook. Maybe the whole IBJ Collective is undergoing "maintenance".

VAM

There are a lot of things going on behind the scenes that are best left alone at the moment.
People's safety might be at risk and Isaac will return when the time is right.

who's safety sheila?
stating this on a public forum concerns me.
it seems as though his forum has been deleted?

Seeker said.....
BTW, since the existence of this thing is based on Anne Lombard Jourdan's writings, has anybody attempted to kidnap and kill her for revealing it?

I guess not, since as I keep saying, her crista is an icon or image representing an idea which can exist in multiple forms - not a singular object.

Seeker you are completely missing the point here. The existence of this thing has nothing to do with Anne Lombard Jordan's writings
At least not in the way you mean, she had a theory and traced it back and came to the same conclusions as others that have done the same thing. The migration of symbols is something you should look at if you are really interested in the origins of the "Crista" as it will show you how an object can be one thing to one person and another thing to someone else.....such as the fleur de lis and the lilly.

This is a perfect example......

The caduceus. --- This is one of the interesting symbols of antiquity. It appears in many phases and is an excellent illustration of the migration of symbols. Its classic type held in the hand of Mercury and used today as a symbol of the healing art --- a winged rod round which two serpents are symmetrically entwined --- is due to the mythographers of later times, and is very remote from its primitive form. In the Homeric hymn it is called "the golden rod, three-petaled of happiness and wealth," which Phœbus gave to the youthful Hermes, but on early Greek monuments the three leaves are represented by a disk surmounted by an incomplete circle. It this shape it constantly appears on Phenician monuments; and at Carthage, where it seems to have been essentially a solar emblem, it is nearly always associated with the sacred cone. It is found on Hittite monuments, where it assumes the form of a globe surmounted by horns. Numerous origins and manifold antecedents have been attributed to it, such as an equivalent of the thunderbolt, a form of the sacred tree, or a combination of the solar globe with the lunar crescent. Some examples seem to indicate a transition from the sacred tree surmounted by the solar disk, to the form of he caduceus of the Hittites. Our author believes it was employed originally as a religious or military standard for flag, and that it was gradually modified by coming in contact with other symbols. Some Assyrian bas-reliefs display a military standard, sometimes consisting of a large ring placed upon a staff with two loose bandelets attached, sometimes of a winged globe similarly disposed. This Assyrian military standard may be the prototype of the labarum, which Constantine, after his conversion to Christianity, chose for his own standard, and which might equally well have been claimed by the sun worshipers. Under its latest transformation in Greece, a winged rod with two serpents twined round it, it has come down to our own times representing two of the functions of Hermes, more than ever in vogue among men, industry and commerce. It has survived in Indian under the form of two serpents entwined, probably introduced in the track of Alexander the Great. It was also met with in that country in earlier times in its simpler form, a disk surmounted by a crescent, resembling our astronomical sign for the planet Mercury. This earliest type of the caduceus, a disk surmounted by a crescent, appears at a remote date in India, and seems to have been confounded with the trisula.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/sym/mosy/mosy16.htm

Does not the Caduceus of the Greeks seem likewise to have been an essentially solar emblem? According to the words of Homer it was a rod of gold which alternately "charms the eyes of men and calls them from their slumbers;" it lures the dead to Hades, and can bring them back to the light of day; lastly, like a real magic wand, it changes all it touches into gold.

There are a lot of things that it would take twenty paragraphs to explain, Rog, at least to explain in sufficient detail. I'm asking for the Cliff Notes. To explain transubstantiation as a doctrine of the Church probably requires a long time. I'm not questioning that there are things you couldn't fully explain without taking a very long time. But you could also summarize what transubstantiation is in three sentences.

One would be "the body and blood of Christ is made manifest in the bread and the wine". See? That sentence gets into the essence of what it is. Of course, it doesn't get into the whole history of theological arguments over when and how it occurs, the encyclicals, the debates, blah blah blah, but it's still possible to summarize.

I know you and others have already said 1) it's a solar symbol 2) it symbolizes royal power & authority and 3) it was later Christianized.

You could have just repeated all that and put it in a sentence. Is that really so hard? It doesn't answer some other questions but hey it's a start!



You gave two examples over at Mania, Rog. Are we not good enough here for the same droppings from the table? Here were your two examples:





You said they're both upside down. That's good. It reminds me of arguments in art galleries of whether an abtract painting was hung upside down or not. How would you know?

I'll take your word both of these are upside down. (How are you so sure?)

Now come on: the next sentence is easy: "these symbolize and represent sunrise". Is that so hard? So the "m" shape on the top is symbolizing the sun "cresting" over hills on the horizon. Come on now. Is this hard? Is it really?



Show me anybody who used that word before Anne Lombard Jourdan, and to refer to anything else other than a) the crest on a helmet or b) a Greek cross.



Yes, and BTW, people making the claim that symbols change over time, illustrate that point with examples, showing and illustrating how one symbol became another. Sometimes they show the intermediate forms. You know, a little bit like physical evolution.

They don't just expect people to take their word for it.



Oh I know Rog. I don't want to be your friend. I really imagine if we ever met in the non virtual world I'm positive I wouldn't like you. I find there is a certain amount of their basic personality people betray with their online presence. And I can sense enough about you to know this.

I have to admit a certain curiosity as to what makes you tick, though. For a guy who doesn't have much to say to those unwilling to prostrate themselves in obedience, which I will never do for anybody, regardless of how self-important they think they are, you have more posts than anybody else on this forum.

That strikes me as somebody who actually wants people to listen to them -- I guess you DO like the pekingese, when they're licking your ankles, rather than biting them.

Of course, a large number of your posts are tearing down other peoples' thoughts and theories, when you usually don't want to answer questions regarding you and yours, which I consider hypocritical. I think that's reason two I don't like you.

Show me anybody who used that word before Anne Lombard Jourdan, and to refer to anything else other than a) the crest on a helmet or b) a Greek cross

Abbot Suger
When, out of affection for the Church, we contemplate these new and old ornaments, seeing that admirable cross of St. Eloi, the lesser crosses, and that incomparable ornament commonly called (the crista) all placed on the golden altar, I say, sighing right down to my heart, "Every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the jaspar, the chrysolite and the onyx, and the beryl, the sapphire and the carbuncle, and the emerald" (Ez. 28:13). Those familiar with the properties of gems note to their astonishment that no type except the carbuncle is lacking here, but rather all abound in great number.

happy now????

Thank you tingra, for answering without insults and with clarity. We may not agree, but I sure enjoy discussing and arguing a subject with someone willing to participate.

Yes, tingra, I concede that's one possible obvious mythological origin for the symbol. However, as always, I think accounting for the origin of the symbol is a bit wrongheaded if it ignores its long associations with the god Hermes -- NOT Apollo. (Technically, the rod of Asclepius had a single serpent, not the two entwined ones of the caduceus.)

And his use of that as his emblem only makes sense if you realize it's a the staff of a messenger.



Hermes' symbol of office as divine messenger was his staff, or caduceus. This was originally a willow wand with entwined ribbons, traditional badge of the herald. But the ribbons were eventually depicted as snakes. To support this mythologically, a story evolved that Hermes used the caduceus to separate two fighting snakes which forthwith twined themselves together in peace.

http://drblayney.com/Asclepius.html

Many "medical" organisations use a symbol of a short rod entwined by two snakes and topped by a pair of wings, which is actually the caduceus or magic wand of the Greek god Hermes (Roman Mercury), messenger of the gods, inventor of (magical) incantations, conductor of the dead and protector of merchants and thieves. It is derived from the Greek karykeion = "herald's staff", itself based on the word "eruko" meaning restrain, control.

[snip]

[Now please note what's in italics might be a favorable freebie to your faction. Continuing on...]

The Greek Hermes found his analogue in Egypt as the ancient Wisdom god Thoth, as Taaut of the Phoenicians and in Rome as the god Mercury (all linked with a magic rod with twin snakes).

The mythical origin of his magic twin serpent caduceus is described in the story of Tiresias. Poulenc, in "Les Mamelles de Tiresias" (The Breasts of Tiresias) tells how Tiresias--the seer who was so unhelpful to Oepidus and Family- found two snakes copulating, and to separate them stuck his staff between them. Immediately he was turned into a woman, and remained so for seven years, until he was able to repeat his action, and change back to male. The transformative power in this story, strong enough to completely reverse even physical polarities of male and female, comes from the union of the two serpents, passed on by the wand. Tiresias' staff, complete with serpents, was later passed on to Hermes...

[snip]

[BTW, I'm sorry, but I can't help but point out that Guillaume Apollinaire "inaugurated" Surrealism with the Breasts of Tiresias, and Poulenc, who put it to music, was a member of Cocteau's "Les Six".]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/caducei

1591, from L. caduceus, alt. of Doric Gk. karykeion "herald's staff," from karyx (gen. karykos) "a herald." Especially the wand carried by Mercury, messenger of the gods, usually represented with two serpents twined round it.

[snip]

http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/staves.html

The heralds of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance claimed to trace the origin of our office from the caduceator, a Roman official who, as you can guess, carried a caduceus, the emblem of Mercury, who was the herald of Olympus. His job was delivering messages declaring war and peace, calling for truces, and other duties that heralds have always performed in times of war. The caduceus of the caduceator was not the elaborate winged wand with snakes commonly associated with Mercury in art today. That representation of the caduceus emerged late in Antiquity, when the old Roman religion was fading out. Instead, the caduceator's caduceus, as well as that of Mercury, was about eighteen inches long, with a white ribbon tied near the top. The very top had a snall knob.

The caduceator seems to have disappeared as Roman culture decayed and Antiquity gave way to the Middle Ages. Even though the barbarians who took over most of the Empire admired Roman wealth and culture, they had their own customs when it came to war, which shoved Roman war customs into the dustbin of history. Also, the caduceator's clear ties to Mercury would have put the office under attack after the adoption of Christianity as Rome's official religion by Constantine the Great.

[snip]

And BTW, dear lady, that brings us back to Iris. Neat, isn't it? Notice what she's got in her hand.

http://www.fjkluth.com/iris.html



In Greek Ίρις-Ίριδα, the messenger of the gods among themselves in Homer (Il.8.398), and Hesiod (Th.780). Her name comes from Indo-European 'wei-1', 'To turn, twist' and 'rei-2'. 'Striped and in various colors'. This is in contrast to the derivation which Plato gives where he says 'Iris' comes from 'εἵρειν', 'To tell' because she was a messenger.

Iris is goddess of the rainbow and a messenger of the gods. She is often carrying messages for Hera. She is the daughter of Thaumas and Electra, one of the Oceanids and not the daughter of Agamemnon. Her sisters were the fearful harpies. She had no cult following and no temples dedicated to her. In some legends she is the mother of Eros by Sephyrus.

[snip]

The wand of Iris indicates she is a herald. The name of the staff, caduceus, is more related to its function than its shape. The origin of the shape is two intertwined snakes whose detail is lost in the wand of Iris. The name comes from the Indo-European 'kar-2', 'To praise loudly, extol' and is related to the greek word for herald's wand 'κηρύκειον'. In her other hand she holds an oinochoe jug. This may be needed to speak with spirits.

[snip]

[see --- another freebie?]

Yes! Elated!

I love references! I love them even more when people tell me where they actually come from!

I found yours. Thank you!

http://tinyurl.com/yh26fwf

"An incomparable ornament referred to as the 'crest' (crista)"

How do we know it wasn't just a gold ornament "crested" on top of the altar? I mean, that is what he's talking about.

Edited: tinyURL corrected.

i dont have a "fraction" or any particular beliefs, i was pointing out the migration of symbols and nothing more and that does not mean i believe all of that stuff. That website is a perfect example of symbolism and how people see different things at different times for different reasons

Yes tingra but I think studying the origins of symbols means you have to look at both etymology and iconography.

Of course an image can mean many things to many people. Knowing what that image was called & its etymological roots gives you more clues.

i didnt get the Crista reference from the internet, most internet references change "Crista" to [crest] or transpose it into the Escrin de Charlemagne simply because they dont know what he is talking about

Abbot Suger actually wrote....
Haec igitur tam nova quam antique ornamentorum discrimina ex ipsa matris ecclesiae affectione crebo considerantes, dum illam ammirabilem sancti Eligii cum minoribus crucem, dum incomparabile ornamentum, quod vulgo “crista” vocatur, aureae area superponi contueremur, corde tenus suspirando:
Omnis, inquam, lapis preciosus operimentum tuum, sardius, topazius, jaspis, crisolitus, onix et berillus, saphirus, carbunculus et smaragdus.

I know. My "Internet" reference was to a BOOK someone has transcribed onto the Internet ... God and Gold in Late Antiquity by Dominic Janes ... and he does give the original Latin.

How is your Latin BTW? Mine sucks. A certain former poseur always gave me a hard time on that. I can read ancient Greek, though.

I'm glad to see you think everybody else doesn't know what Suger was referring to ... but you've figured it out ... to which I can only also use the smiley

The problem with the so called evolution of symbols is that it is like etymology. One can make A = Z in 25 steps or less.

(Unless of course the person doing the attributing is a true expert, and is prepared to explain each step along the way).

So you can make a symbol on an upside down Merovingian coin = the holy window catch of Girona just by saying it is so, and then by obfusticating and blustering keep the whole snake oil show going for the gullible, ad infinitum.

However the Chrismon = Chi/Rho = Labarum symbol (as opposed to the fairytale crista) does have significant importance to the history/mystery/story of Rennes-le-Chateau.

BergerdeArcadie started the whole PAX/CHI RHO?? thread by pointing out that de Cherisey made an interesting reference to PX, Constantine etc. To read that reference luckily you only have to go to the first post on the first page of said thread.

Whatever you may think of Plantard (faux royal), de Sede (sci fi writer) and de Chiresey (clown) they were well read, and did real research. They were trying to work it out, and they released tid-bits along the way to keep the ball rolling. They too were snake oil salesmen with their own agendas. If it wasn't for Plantard, de Chiresey, and de Sede (and Sauniere and Corbu, and the Henry Lincoln team, etc.) there would be no history/mystery/story.

If you think about it, the whole reason we're discussing CHI RHO etc is because de Chiresey suggested it. I don't know where de Chiresey got the idea from. However I will make a suggestion. De Sede wrote a book on the Templars and would have known where to look to find the Templar Cartulaires (records) for the area.

It is unique and very distinctive that every one of the 5 document sets (folios) of Templar Cartulaires from Douzens (outside Carcassonne, headquarters for the Aude region) have a Chrismon on the cover. You can see the link referencing this here: http://www.templiers.net/cartulaires/index.php?page=douzens-introduction-au-cartulaire

Now one of the three musketeers (Plantard, de Chiresey, de Sede) was bound to have looked up the Douzens cartulaires and seen these Chrismons.

So.... do we then throw away the fact that we are told it was St. Eligius who MADE this "crest"?

http://arcscholar.blogspot.com/2009/07/ ... edral.html

In the 7th century, at the burial place of Saint Denis, Eligius “fabricated a mausoleum for the holy martyr Denis in the city of Paris with a wonderful marble ciborium over it marvelously decorated with gold and gems. He composed a crest [at the top of a tomb] and a magnificent frontal and surrounded the throne of the altar with golden axes in a circle. He placed golden apples there, round and jeweled. He made a pulpit and a gate of silver and a roof for the throne of the altar on silver axes. He made a covering in the place before the tomb and fabricated an outside altar at the feet of the holy martyr. So much industry did he lavish there, at the king’s request, and poured out so much that scarcely a single ornament was left in Gaul and it is the greatest wonder of all to this very day.

[snip]

Oh and BTW about horses and conquering with signs...

http://www.catholic-saints.info/patron- ... ligius.htm

Why is Saint Eligius is the patron of Goldsmiths, Blacksmiths, Horses, Taxi Drivers and Mechanics? Because of his former occupation as a goldsmith. Farriers and blacksmiths claim him for their patron on account of the following astounding legend. One day, when a horse was required to be shod, he plunged and kicked so much, that it was said he had the devil in him. St. Eligius was then appealed to, but instead of exorcising the devil he quietly cut off the animal's leg, placed it on an anvil and shod it properly, after which he replaced the leg by merely making the sign of the Cross.

[snip]

If I get the gist of that correctly Abbot Sugar (Abbot Sugar, Abbot of St-Denis, who died in 1151) is saying that what the common people call the crista is really an ancient symbol of the Mother Church, which he then equates to the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem.

I'd appreciate a good literal translation, plus the original reference if anyone can provide it.

Sorry Tingara, our posts were crossing and I didn't see the translation above, and the fact that Sugar was referencing Ezekiel, and not the New Jerusalem.

Would a Christa resemble a Catholic Monstrance like this one?