An attempt to pursue a closer look at the Medieval period of France was done by Tingra....
MEDIEVAL HISTORY
Abbot Suger.....Life of King Louis the Fat.
Very good reading if anyone is interested in St Denis,s and medieval life as he saw it happen
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/sugar2.html thought it might be a good idea to have somewhere we could post our favourite historical reading materials
There is loads of excellent reading material on the website and the link here (the one i meant to post ) gives a fascinating insight into life in France in that period of time. Suger and St Denis is one of my favourite subjects
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/su ... hefat.html
I expanded the Mero bit by taking a different approach to it. I wonder after I manage to go thru The Rise how much of any of these socio-cultural milieu vestiges will appear in that book. This is my Mero take...
MERO TWIST
http://watch.pair.com/priory.html http://watch.pair.com/mystery-babylon.html http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 20of%20dan
http://www.ufodigest.com/tribeofdan.html http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bibli ... ar_14d.htm
http://watch.pair.com/dan.html http://www.hope-of-israel.org/i000035a.htm http://reluctant-messenger.com/judahs_sceptre_304.htm http://www.buy.com/prod/the-good-and-ev ... 55890.html
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Orthodox-Jud ... erpent.htm
http://www.biblemeanings.info/Words/Animal/Serpent.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(symbolism)
All of these links do an inter-connect, in that to know what Tribe of Dan is all 'boot means ya gotta know all the ramifications of 'serpent'. Then ya gotta put them within the religious context they all arose in. Then ya gotta see how all of this is manipulated by the human element of politics.
The connects here go from Tribe of Dan + this tribal connection to being 2 things simultaneously, namely being 'judges' +'serpents'. Then comes a point where all of these diverse elements get folded into a fledgling Christian Church from its Judaic-Talmudic roots, which in turn gets manipulated by rulers of the day to use as a control mechanism over their minions.
The Apocalypse in turn sees the end game of all of these machinations with the advent of AntiChrist as coming thru Tribe of Dan by way of a Mero connection, that is, if ya follow the line of thinking of various biblic commentators over the millenia.
The tie-in to RLC is by way of its being on the path of war of criss-crossing armies, be they Moors, Visigoths, Templar Crusaders, Joan of Arc + 100 Years War, the Inquisition, de Montforts Cathar crushers, excesses of Jacobin-Girodin French revolutionaries, The Reign of Terror, Napoleon's follow ups, Franco-Prussian conflict, throw in the Black Death for good measure and France was in constant turmoil.
There was always some group being harassed, exploited, persecuted somewhere in France by either internal forces or external forces. France was never a very tranquil place to live for the past 2,000 years, no? The myriad of topics + threads have discussed various epochs of this French history but not usually focusing on RLC enigma as the emanating source of this history.
To make life more esoterically interesting Nostradamus sees this area of France playing an active role when AntiChrist hits the world scene, how come? Why would the AntiChrist need to be concerned here, if ya go out from Nostradamus' quatrains? This soft underbelly will be the landing base for swarms of Arabs under direction of AntiChrist to do 2 things, capture the EU heartland and crush Church influence.
A Tribe of Dan related False Prophet + a Mero related AntiChrist with distant roots in RLC environs, perchance? Unfolding of this history is happening already with Sarkozy and lately Pope Ben 16 stirring up the Holocaust debate, no? A reading of the 3rd prophecy of Fatima with the Final Pope, noted in Malachy's list, on the run having to tread his way over bodies of massacred klerics, as noted in Nostradamus' quatrains, gives some credibility of this possible outcome, no?
Keep in mind the Apocalypse mentions a total collapse of the world economic scene as a precurser to appearance of AntiChrist, so what we have now may be just a warm-up act, or the real thing, time will tell, no?
Ya gotta factor in the Gog-Magog inter-connect, 'cuz King of North(Russia) rises to sweep the Holy Land when King of The South (Arab Federation) clash, as a result of moves made by King of South. What is really cool is that Russia kicks booty big time + rolls over the Arabs and then has to beat feet back to take on the East Chinks. That manoeuver by the South connects to the Nostradamus Quatrains. Possessing oil is a risky biz , no?
Cabala-Talmud-gnosticism
This was posted on the 'masters' forum and elicited only responses from 'roger'. It deals with the hows + whys the Gnosticism concept exists at all. This rabbi-author spells out how it all came about.
If ya have disagreements with his take, keep in mind it reps the schooling background of that rabbi.
This is what was posted to 'masters' forum, in toto...
I have read a lot of material purporting to be 'gnostic', whatever that means. These folks claim all sorts of stuff. A random sample of the diversity which I haven't come across on yer forum yet for what ever reason ya give. Here's what I mean.
I never see any refs to Laura Jadyck's gnostic intergalactic time + shape shifters from Cassiopeia. I never see any gnostic monoatomic gold gnostic pixie dusters mentioned by Lawrence Gardner. No gnostic white pebble collectors mentioned by Mary Sparrowdancer. No grey-reptilian gnostics mentioned by David Ickx. There are quite a few more, Twyman, Dan Brown, Harkey-Smith, aka McGowan, Lincoln and that whole genre of RLC writers, if ya get my drift.
Then I superimposed an even more encompassing overview of all of his, as follows...
Here is an excerpt from a person who sez he has the authentic take of gnosticism, check it out...
The Cabalist Jewish Connection
By Cohen G. Reckart, Pastor
What is missed by the majority of researchers of the trinity doctrine, is the educational and Jewish influence upon Athanasius. Athanasius was from Alexandria, a learning center heavily populated by Jews who had Hellenized, and who had adopted a Babylonian Gnostic re-interpretation of the Old Testament. It is well recognized that the Jews played a major role in fertilizing the world with their own brand of Greek Gnosticism, that included a secret belief in a trinity of Kether [first elohim], Hokhmah [second elohim], and Binah [third elohim] (16). That Kabbalism is Gnosticism, I have only to quote the most eminent scholar and Kabbalist of the twentieth century: "Behind the whole stands the living personality of a mystic who, starting with the philosophical and Talmudic education of his time, lets himself be ever more deeply drawn to the mystical and gnostic ideas of the Kabbalah" (17).
It is from the Kabbalah often also called the Quabbalah, that the trinitarian and pluralistic use of "echad" the Hebrew word for "one", is said by the mystics to mean "unity" rather than an absolute oneness. I have challenged this heresy for several years. For instance, the trinitarians and the Jewish mystics, including many Jewish Messianic Rabbis, will say that the Hebrew word "Elohim" is a plural of unity compromising three separate persons in the trinity, namely: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. These neo-Plato philosophers, corrupting the intent of the Word of God that there is one God, now saying that both the Hebrew word "Elohim" and "echad" means "unity". Well then, if these in this heresy believe this doctrine why then do they balk and hesitate to translate "Elohim" as "Gods" plural rather than in the singular "God"? Why then do they not likewise translate "echad" as "three" and not rather as "one"? Obviously such distortions would wreck the entire text of the Bible from lid to lid and these men of alleged great esteem are not ready to take that wrecking -ball upon the sacred text. The concept of a unity in a trinity or even more gods, has its roots within the ancient Jewish traditions of the Kabbalah, known in the days of Jesus Messiah as "THE TRADITIONS OF THE ELDERS." And, did Jesus validate these traditions as truth or of having within them the sacred revelations of God? And if he did not, what does this say of those alleged scholars and Bible teachers who take their trinitarian cue from Plato or these nefarious traditions?
If we were to translate "Elohim" as "Gods" since they say it is plural and means more than one person that are all equally God, and if we translate "echad" as "three" instead of the "One" as they teach it for doctrine, what would this heresy do to Deut 6:4?:
"Hear ,O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord."
Hear, O Israel: the Lords our Gods are three Lords!
And: In the beginning Gods created the heavens and the earth, and Thou shalt have no other Gods before us! Does not the first Commandment prohibit a plural view or pluralistic practice of worship of God?
Jewish Kabbalahism has been the secret lodge of the trinity doctrine since the days of Babylonian captivity. Even prior to that eviction from the Holy land, the Jews worshiped a trinity in the form of "Baal, Ashtoreth, and Tammuz." So the trinity is not new to them, nor is it new that Jews would believe in a trinity of gods. Elijeh confronted the trinitarians on Mount Carmel. And after this encounter, the Prophets have each in their generations and in their Ministries stood firm against the trinity doctrine of the pagans and any adoption of it to be applied to God. The trinity did not begin in Nicaea, it was just adopted from paganism at that time as an explanation of the relationship of the three gods: the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost to the former two.
How did the trinity come from Babylon to Egypt and then to Nicaea in 325AD? We shall now see the genealogy of the cult doctrine that has so many millions in bondage and captivity came through Jewish mysticism known as the Kabballah. Many are unlearned of this connection and because of it are blinded and remain lost without salvation in the cults of the trinitarians.
The Genealogy of the trinity from apostate Judaism:
Jews had settled in Alexandria from the time of Jeremiah. They held high positions in civic affairs, but mostly as educators. According to David M. Scholer, there were over a million Jews in Alexandria at the time of Philo (18). Philo Judaeaus, is perhaps the most celebrated Jewish Gnostic-mystic of the Christian era, being a contemporary of Christ and the Apostles. His daughter Bernice, was the wife of Herod Agrippa, who tried the Apostle Paul. Philo is recognized as the first who "openly" applied Babylonian and Greek methods of mysticism, in an allegorical re-interpretation of the Scriptures (19). He considered the Greek philosophers on the same level as the Prophets. He believed their logic, reasonings, and hypostasis were divine in origin. Later, so did the Roman and Greek Orthodox Catholics. Many Jews, following Philo's beliefs, Hellenized, and adopted the trinity concept of Plato and applied it to their God. This Gnosticism is known as Cabalism, the spiritual and metaphysical strength of the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds. Few know that behind Jewish mysticism is the secret belief in a triad of gods in interlocking trinities. These powers or elohims are pictured in the ten emanations of the Sefiroth, or tree of life, in Cabalism. This mysticism invalidates the literal meaning and interpretation of the Scriptures. Among Apostolics we call this "spiritualizing." In fact, "Christian spiritualizing" is mysticism, using private re-interpretation as a claim to invalidate the literal meaning and interpretation of Scripture. The trinity doctrine is birthed out of mysticism, not revelation. Out of this "spiritualizing and mysticism" comes the theory of the hidden trinity in God, that must come by "special" revelation through philosophy.
From Philo [20BC-50AD], to Athanasius [293AD-373AD], roughly 275 years, the Greek-Plato fermentation concerning God had reached its intellectual peak in Egypt. Judaism had fully molded to Platonism. Now it was time for the Christian Church to be molded. Would it reject Greek paganism, or philosophy as Apostle Paul called it [Col. 2:8]? Certainly we might question, that since Platonism was well known by Paul and the Apostles, why, if it was truth, that they rejected it and it took another 275 years for it to be accepted at Nicaea? Did God miss something here? Were his Apostles not led of the Spirit but those at Nicaea were?
Athanasius, the thirty two year old, archdeacon of Bishop Alexander, and the replacement of the aged Arius, championed Platonism, and fully impregnated the Roman and Greek Churches with it. "He received a liberal education. From early years he was instructed in Scriptures, that is the Septuagint and New Testament. He knew no Hebrew. These studies, combined with Greek learning, molded his later thought. In mind and outlook he was a through Greek. There was nothing of the native Egyptian about him" (20)
Athanasius was a Greek philosopher inside the pre-Nicaea Roman and Greek Churches. He did not accidentally come up with the Plato theory of godhead as his revelation, he learned it at the university where he studied and applied it brilliantly to the Scriptures as none before him. His genius and diplomatic power were assets around the old-heads at Nicaea, most who were unlearned, and some we might term today as liberals [so lose they don't believe fat meat is greasy]. How could a thirty two year old unknown archdeacon, come to such political strength behind closed doors, to cause 316 of 318 old grey-haired Bishops to fall for his Greek re-interpretation of monotheism [the Monarchy]? Could it be that Greek philosophy had already nearly deceived the Bishops that attended, through the writings of Clement, Irenaeus, Tertullian, et al? It must be said that the Monotheistic beliefs of the early Apostles and Christians, was firmly that there was one God and one person in the Godhead. This is verified by the following Scriptures, and the fact that the word "trinity" is not in the Bible:
MAL 2:10
10a: Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?
MAR 12:32
32: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he.
ROM 3:30
30: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
EPH 4:6
6: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1TI 2:5
5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
JAM 2:19
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble [the devil does not believe in three gods, he ought to know, he was there].
1TI 3:16
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh [as Jesus Christ], justified in the Spirit [to still be God], seen of angels [in heaven], preached unto the Gentiles [when on earth], believed on in the world [as God by Christians], received up into glory [back to his throne].
The Greek Orthodox deny that these Scriptures prove there is one God the Father; that God is one person; that God came to earth in the fleshly form as Jesus Christ; that we are to believe upon Jesus that he is Almighty God; and that he went back to heaven; from whence he will return in the last day for his people as GOD. That he is the great God and Saviour, both at the same time, who will come back from heaven, we have only to quote one verse of Scripture:
TIT 2:13
13: Looking for that blessed hope [the rapture], and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
Is not then the trinity doctrine, the fruit of the Nico-Latin seed, that grew in the fertile soil of Greek gnosticism, that tried to infiltrate the Church at Pergamos? Is not the acceptance of the trinity doctrine a proof that Greek Orthodoxy is a form of Hellenized Christian Gnosticism, and not the true Orthodox Apostolic Church at all? If the trinity doctrine was such a fact, why did it take 295 years before it become an established Church doctrine, in 325 AD at Nicaea?
I would urge Christian and Apostolic researchers not to minimize the Jewish-Greek-Gnostic influence, Athanasius wielded at Nicaea, and the fact that he learned the trinity doctrine from the two sources of Hellenized Judaism [Cabalism], and Plato philosophy. Those researching the trinity usually fail to make discovery of the bridge and route of the trinity doctrine from Babylon to Jerusalem to Greece to Alexandria and then to Nicaea. The genealogy is very clear to those who research the background life of Athanasius back to Philo.
there is this version to consider...
http://www.archive.org/stream/jewishenc ... g_djvu.txt
these folks claim they are are right...
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... &artid=280
They all come in conflict with this situation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woes_of_the_Pharisees The writers on Gnosis completely ignore the Cabala + Talmud, how come? The modern notion of the gnostic trend is all based on Jewish participation. Just check out the Princeton University Theological Seminary and its Professors who espouse this Gnosticism is Jewish approach, like Elaine Pagels and Amy Levine.
I find it rather skewed on their part to completely ignore this segment of the gnostic continuum considering all modern commentators draw on this source but never seem to give it any creedence. If there is any mention, its extremely minimal at best.
I would appreciate yer feedback,
Roger sez…
My quick answer would be that I don't think highly of the article or its author. And that I see no "talmudic" connection at all in Sauniere's church decor. If you do, feel free to point it out, but please be precise.
M T sez…
Why are there 3 figures around/on the altar in a manner as to make a mockery of what is traditionally considered as representing the Holy Trinity. Mary + Child, Joseph + Child, Magdalene on the panel in front of the altar are not representative of the Holy Trinity are they?
The devil greeting one at the entrance comes from what tradition? All the subtle alterations of the Stations are suggesting another theme as well, but whose?
The author of the article says he is a rabbi of sorts. He doesn't mention which of today's sub-groupings, like Reformed Judaism, etc, so I can't answer for his background training. He states Gnosticism comes from this background, so now you are in a position of disagreeing with him, but what is there to object to?
If a religion uses a trinitarian theme he says it came from the Talmudic-Cabala background, so how can you say he is wrong in that regard?
Roger sez…
You would prefer a depiction of the Holy Trinity, and Sauniere preferred a depiction of the Holy Family. I really think one shouldn't see more to it than that. I don't see at all that he's"mocking the Holy Trinity".
I'm not sure where the tradition of the Devil crushed by angels and a stoup of holy water began, but it's not unusual. It's interesting you'd see the devil as "greeting you", rather than the angels who, as you can see, are giving him quite a bit of trouble.
The water stoup with devil is a catalogue item.
As to the "Tamudic-Cabala" background, I would carefully avoid conflating the two.
M T sez…
As I see it, yer not a trained, published rabbi, neither am I, so how can yer outsider take be more vaild to critique a judaeo-gnostic source? That rabbi was presenting his schooling's viewpoint and he bases it on those 2 concepts, yes? Yer ordained qualifications are...? Yer nihil obstat qualifications are...?
In looking at Sauniere's Church, with those 3 foci, of which Magdalen is neither Holy family nor Holy Trinity, her inclusion reflects another tradition's concept of Trinity, and the use of Bloodline here is quite obvious, yes? In the Judaeo- talmudic tradition of the mother determines jewishness, as a precursor of anticipating the role of Miryam, why are their 2 women, 2 male figures, Joseph ís visible, The Holy Spirit is spiritualized by the Halo effect given to demo the Shekinah Glory, yet Magdalene is also given a Shekinah Glory Halo, even tho' she is only given star billing in the gnostc worlds' divine fem take.
Since the rabbi sez gnosticism takes its cues from a Talmudic-Cabala start point this automagically puts the placement of Magdalene on the altar is conflict with Church doctrine, yes? That space should be either the Alpha-Omega or the Chi-Rho to reflect their significance in the altar sacrifice, yes?
Joseph is also out of place 'cuz he has a spouse role but not a fathership role, yes? So what tradition would automagically include him? The Judaeo-Talmudic would demand it, yes? Joseph was the paternal connection to the House of David, just as Miryam is the maternal connection to the House of David.
Consider these links to put more perspective in place here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... _in_France
why does France still have more Jews than any other place outside of israel?
Isn't this what we are discussing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretic Isn't this what Sauniere is equivocating about?...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterodox Isn't this a part of it from a background perspective?...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_the_Supreme_Being http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carte ... n_1791.svg
Why did these only happen in France + nowhere else?
These concept's were around for quite a while, yes?...
http://www.gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/ ... 0/ch6.html
http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/judai ... ge=english
This helps put a perspective view on things, no? Who were for 1000s of years the most literate folk in the world? It don't take an Einstein grasp of physics to grasp, does it? How else could the concept of gnostic Catharism evolve without input + guidance from a gnostic Talmudic-Cabal source. How else could a replacement focus of a gnostic divine fem with Magdalen in the star role occur without input + guidance from this source.
Sauniere went to Lyon, yes? What else did Lyon have going for it, like maybe the 2nd largest concentration of Jews in France?
Gives ya something to think 'boot, no?
Roger sez…
It sounds as if you're developing, or have developed a theory. Why don't you write a well thought out article on the topic and send it in?
Just use normal English, explain your thesis and quote and cite your sources.
The editorial team here might even publish it.
All members are invited to contribute articles, if they feel they have a solid view they wish to share with
M T sez…
The background influence of this tradition has been my major focus in the RLC engima from day 1. It has been trivialized and denigrated more often than given credibility. Now that Talmudic trained commentators are posting to the 'Net, access to this ancient tradition is coming to the forefront.
I will quote a strange source to help put this background in sharper focus. A Civil War General Nathan Bedford Forrest, better known for his KKK creation, was asked what his key battle strategy was, he simply said, 'git thar fustest with the mostest'.
I saw a parallel here in RLC from a time-continuum perspective, 'cuz of all the players involved, the Talmudics were there 'fustest with the mostest', and have never left the region. The recent hullabaloo in Girona over the Cabalal center is an indication of this focal point.
Another semi-crypto player was converso Nostradamus, a sort of local boy makes good scenario also comes from just this area. Amazing how such a small backwater like South France + Aude can have such an impact, yes? In terms of just literary input, the RLC enigma far outstrips the Bermuda Triangle, Loch Ness creature, Yeti, etc by a long shot.
The bigger query is, how come? The tie-in of a cult of death is an integral part of Talmudic-Cabala lore, long before The Rise was able to exploit it. The Cathars had their mystery death cult, no? Where did they get it from? It certainly didn't come from Momma Church, but by fella gnostics who pre-dated them.
A cursory look at any wide spread heresy combated by the Church has its ultimate source in this gnostic ancestor, yes? Its not so strange to think this influence died out just 'cuz the cult of reason or cult of Supreme Being ran its course. Another ready made cult, the Rosicrucians were just a follow-up to fill in the gap, so to speak.
The Cabala is found thruout the entire Rosicru spectrum. Ya can't get a handle on the Rosicru without having a thoro' working knowledge of the Cabala, and lucky 'nuff the world-wide center was conveniently next door. Every researcher in the RLC enigma sees the imprint of the Rosicru. Ya can't read a single text without being immersed in Rosicru arcana regarding the tie-ins to the RLC enigma, and they in turn got their inspiration from the Talmud-Cabala gnostic take on things.
Since Sauniee was not total master of his house, he had to toe the line of his superiors if he expected to stay in place. Once Billard was gone things changed, no? But what didn't changed oddly 'nuff were all the changes Sauniere made to the Church domain. This tells me Beausejour had his marching orders as well to let things stay intact.
Other Churches in the immediate area were either torn down, remodeled, allowed to become ruins when ya read the fate of these Churches on the Perillos website, due to activities of the clerics who ran them. So why was RLC allowed to remain as a poster child to the world? It had to benefit somebody, yes? If not momma Church, then by default the gnostic Magdalene cult started by the gnostic Talmud-Cabala krowd.
I will eventually get more info to fill in the gaps of this outline and a seamless time-line transition from time of the Cathars to the onset of French Revolution to Napoleonic period to Sauniere to today. Its not that daunting 'cuz WW1+ 2 did not ravage this area after fall of the Cathars + Templars.
I got plenty of patience and time will tell.
Since I can't edit my previous post I'll add info here. What I find intriguing is that it seems anybody living in France way back when had access to the Cabala center in Girona, whereas the rest of the world had in have an 'in' if they expected to learn anything 'boot the Cabala or Talmud.
Consider the range of the following links and the item that links them all is that Cabala center and the availability of accessing Talmudic info. Why is France singled out for this largesse?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_Chevillon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Anne_Lenormand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Kardec http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Theon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulcanelli http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Gu%C3%A9non Then ya have a more recent group of folks who took their inspiration from their predecessors and the results are some what different even tho' the Cabala is a given...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheiro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bertiaux http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Yronwode The other common point being having a French or Jewish background also is factored in. Not just anybody could be in the know like the Theosophy krowd was at that time. This reflects on Sauniere's France and the action going on in Lyon as well.
The rest of Europe except for those into all things Gnostic didn't have a clue as to what's available in South France. When the firm that supplied Sauniere with an assembly line product like The Stations of the cross, where else in Europe could such gaudily designed objects be found. The artwork is more reminiscent of what a clan of gypsy's would be peddling.
There is a difference 'tween bad taste and no taste, yes? The same applies to how the philosophical tenets derived from the Cabala + Talmud are applied, especially by non-judaic trained seekers, yes?
Then we get to this situation...
http://www.gnostic-jesus.com/ http://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/gar/gar41.htm http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/theos ... istos.html
and compare them to this...
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/gnos ... nostic.htm
The debate 'boot who has the historically correct take is far from resolved in my book. The Rise is only a tiny slice, yes/no?
I new I forgot to add something, ... my hint for today is ,... don't get as olde as I am, it ain't good for yer health. The following link should have been posted to a previous post. It deals with the circumstances which made all the links of the previous post possible, when it comes to the situation unique to France.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristia ... Revolution,
By virtue of the widescale destruction to Church property, Church institutions that were the cement that held the French society together, these interlopers could run amuck and have a free rein.
Here are a couple more examples...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Monvoisin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etienne_Guibourg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis-Vin ... ve_du_Thym
These types of charlatans were to plague France for ever more, 'cuz they got a solid foothold into the French psyche. Otherwise, why does France have, per capita, more palm readers, etc, than anywhere else in the EU.
Just look at a recent poll of what are supposed to rep French Catholics. 4 out of 10 say the Pope is doing a bad job and should retire. This can only happen in an environment where the professed Faith of folk is lukewarm at best. France ain't 'zackly a hotbed for zealotry when it comes to things Catholic. That poll indicates the deplorable state of what passes for Christianity in France.
The Apocalypse of St. John mentions a Great Apostasy which will occur prior to appearance of the Anti-Christ. This poll may be a harbinger of just this prophecy.
With the above perspective in a historical framework, the episode of the penance-penitence cult as seen evolving over time in a very small sphere means it was just another series of events that can be described as a schismatic movement that failed to achieve what ever goals the controllers in the background, behind the scenes expected.
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