BLUE APPLES

RenaissanceMan · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2010 8:15 pm

Wayward, i'll bite. If i see the same horse shape as you, its got a blinker over its right eye shaped like a square C. To be honest, to me it looks more like a dog, but if it was Cerberus you might expect 3 heads. There is another square C wrapped around an ear of the large rabbit? behind Anthony's shoulder. Find another and i'll outline out the head i see - bat bits aren't involved.

Looking at Google Earth and Oak Island, is your horse shape the mainland promontory just west of OI?
To me OI looks like a labrador pup, you can even see its folded down ear. Cute.
If your horse is it, where does "of God" fit in?

RenaissanceMan · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2010 8:18 pm

Rain, you ask about the key that Poussin and Teniers have in both pictures and say it has been overlooked.

The key has only been partially explained so lets go over it again.

SHEPHERDESS NO TEMPTATION POUSSIN TENIERS HOLD THE KEY

In the Poussin theres a shepherdess
In the Teniers theres a poussin (young chicken)

The clue could be looked on as being addressed to a shepherdess.
The poussin in the Teniers 'no temptation' paintings was spotted by a shepherdess - Sheila.

Teniers sounds like 'tenirs' - to hold
In the Teniers its water that is being held, The water clearly represents Holy Spirit 'the water of life'
In the Poussin its the staffs that are being held. The staffs could represent 'the staff of life'
So at the very least we have 'life' which happens to be the meaning of St Anthony's cross and the real subject of both paintings.
(See my rather strange interpretation of the Poussin in The Shugborough Inscription thread in the Shugborough Hall section. Strange, but it does fit in perfectly with the Teniers.)

We can go deeper.
We know what the key is from another thread - the key of Solomon. Solomon is known for wisdom.
Both owls and books symbolise wisdom, you have just mentioned both.

Poussin painted the 'staff of life', bread - the Eucharist wafer, representing the body of christ.
Poussin painted a tomb.
You yourself have just been talking about St Barbara. Have you read Les saintes Puelles thread in the Perillous section? You should.
Barbara holds the chalice containing the blood of Christ, the spirit, to which is added the wafer, the body.

What happens next?

wayward · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2010 9:09 pm

Ren Man,I give up on trying to show anybody the horse.It is just one of those things that almost has to be outlined to be seen.I remember myself my wife and some friends were exploring a cave in Wyoming when my wife took some photos.We gave copies to everybody when we got back to Michigan,which we always did. Later that night one of our friends called,she had seen the ghost of an Indian in one of the photos, against the cave wall.None of us could see it no matter how she discribed it to us,but when we got together and she pointed it out it became quite obvious.Of course it was just a trick of the light and some different types of materials on the cave wall,but you understand my point (I hope).I guess I meant Native American and not Indian.oh well

richard.webster · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2010 10:40 pm

RenaissanceMan wrote:

SHEPHERDESS NO TEMPTATION POUSSIN TENIERS HOLD THE KEY

In the Poussin theres a shepherdess
In the Teniers theres a poussin (young chicken)

The clue could be looked on as being addressed to a shepherdess.
The poussin in the Teniers 'no temptation' paintings was spotted by a shepherdess - Sheila.

Teniers sounds like 'tenirs' - to hold
In the Teniers its water that is being held, The water clearly represents Holy Spirit 'the water of life'
In the Poussin its the staffs that are being held. The staffs could represent 'the staff of life'

Interesting thought, as ever, but isn't that to ascribe rather too much creative brilliance to the people who concocted that message, to imagine they could turn that into yet another double meaning? The guarding the key part is already in the sentence, in its own right, surely the similarity to the name of the artist is coincidental?

Whether they were by the same hand or not, I think it's useful in this instance to look at this coded message in the context of the other one. The Dagobert message is, if you choose to take it at face value as a piece of text, and allowing for the slight ambiguity at the end, a nicely constructed sentence; quite poetic, it could be part of a speech in a play. But then it's based on the simplest of raised letter codes, that allows one to write exactly the message that one wants. But the Shepherdess message is made from a code that is extremely complex, so one would think it would be more difficult to form a precise series of words. Hence this message, in contrast to the bold, declamatory Dagobert one, is fragmented, almost clumsy, as if put together in an abbreviated, shorthand style. So I would imagine that the construction of such a sophisticated code, out of a specific Bible passage, would entail some degree of compromise in the language used. Which would caution me against reading too much deliberate nuance into the text.

So for what it's worth, I think the first half of that message is quite unambiguous - a reference to two painters and certain of their works, followed by the statement that this "holds the key". The rest is inexplicable to me.

So I think it's all about the paintings, and not the text.

Anyway, that's all a smallish point in the midst of much thoughtful argument. Merely musing that there may have been limits to the ingenuity of the code makers. One wonders indeed whether some of the later ambiguity was partially by necessity, rather than wholly by design.

Sheila · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2010 10:49 pm

Some say, perhaps rightly .......that it is the original text used on these parchments that should be the focus of your attention.......rather than the so called "clues".

Much more of a challenge.... imho.

richard.webster · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2010 10:53 pm

Sheila wrote:

Some say, perhaps rightly .......that it is the original text used on these parchments, rather than the so called "clues" that should be the focus of your attention.

Indeed, or if not, a deliberately chosen piece of text, at the very least. Hence caution in imagining that it could have been so skilfully manipulated into such a confection of different meanings. They had to work with what they had, and make what they could of it .........

rain · **Posted:** 20 Jan 2010 12:16 am

Ahhh Confections so yummy.

rain · **Posted:** 20 Jan 2010 12:51 am

rs2008:

Quote:

Mmmmmm....and that would be another clue, the Equus behind the good Saint, its ears being the wings of the dinosaur thingy?? And what about the fowl peeing/pooping in the vase, that must be significant.........or have we been here before?

It's very interesting, I keep thinking the chicken is headless it looks so funny. I know it's got the runs, poor thing.

May I ask what would be the chemical composition of the Chicken Poo, rs2008? Acid content, Lime etc...

The other animals remind me of The Island of Dr. Moreau set in a Grotto. Kinda Creepy.

rs2008 · **Posted:** 20 Jan 2010 1:24 am

I think chicken poo is acidic, rain; my dad used to be careful where he spread it. My post was entirely tongue in cheek, especially for Sheila, who rose to the occasion and vowed to leave the discussion (understandably :wink:

), but I see now could not resist returning.
It's all very interesting to dissect various paintings and draw conclusions on what one can discern in them (a la Rorschach) with regard to BS and RLC; it's my understanding (please correct me someone) that; i) there is no good evidence that our nefarious abbe ever visited the Louvre, ii) copies of the shepherds and the temptation were not available at that time and iii) evidence that Poussin ever visited the RLC area is non-existent.

Sheila · **Posted:** 20 Jan 2010 10:04 am

Here we go again....

Chicken & bat guano is high in Nitrogen because of the Uric acid content, also high in phosphorus and ammonia.
I thought it was the Uric acid bit that was interesting because of the guano being excreted into the water jug...water that comes from the natural source that is also shown in these paintings.

You have to remember that Saint Anthony was a Desert Father in the Natron Valley/Wadi Natrum which has a Subaqueous anoxic environment like the Dead sea and the Red sea areas.The monastic community was formed in the second half of the 4th century in natural or man made caves....recent research shows that, most probably, the initial community was formed around a deserted massive defense tower, built by the Romans, to defend the salt and Natron production of the Wadi.

Saint Anthony decided to follow this tradition and headed out into the alkaline desert region called the Nitra in Latin (Wadi El Natrun today), about 95 km west of Alexandria, some of the most rugged terrain of the Western Desert. Here he remained for some thirteen years.

In the Old Testament rather than Natrum they use the word Neter which is also a common name for the abode of the dead. It means the "divine subterranean place"

Natron (Na2CO3, sodium bicarbonate) was an important material used for mummification, glassmaking, and to preserve food.Used in mummification because it absorbs water and behaves as a drying agent. Moreover, when exposed to moisture the carbonate in natron increases pH, which creates a hostile environment for bacteria. In some cultures natron was thought to enhance spiritual safety for both the living and the dead.

So we have an Alkaline mineral water mixed with a high Nitrate Uric acid....... more later must dash.

RenaissanceMan · **Posted:** 20 Jan 2010 11:31 pm

The original text seems well worth having a look at. It was from the Vulgate wasn't it?
Anyone know which passage?

Richard, i understand what you are saying about the limitation of the artists, both the painters and code writers.
Are you into geometry? Remove all the lettering from the large parchment. What is left? Start at the compass rose at the bottom centre. Look carefully at the parchment. In full view yet no one has noticed.

Have you looked at my web site? Try the Glastonbury section. The geometry is perfect. It can be used to correct David Wood's small errors. A way of checking it is correct is built in.
Then there is the interpretation of the symbolism.
Such things are not known to be possible yet it exists and is easily checkable.
If something exists it is of science. Where does that leave us?

Here is something else to think about.
Wayward saw a horse's head in one of the paintings above. He won't point it out and wants us to forget about it.
I had a look and made out a dog's head with a square C round one eye. You can see the other eye where you would expect it to be.There is another square C that wraps around the ear of the rabbit behind St Anthony. So we have a dog's head in a painting about the underworld together with two square C's. To me that screams the three headed dog Cerberus, guardian of the underworld.
It just happens that there is a large dog outlined in the landscape between the Glastonbury zodiac and the town of Langport. It was found when someone was investigating the local legend of the 'Girt Dog of Langport'. Presumably it is meant to be Cerberus guarding the zodiac.

...........

It could all be coincidence .... except that the coincidences roll on and on:

Here is the goose and rider again that looks exactly like the wood cut of Perrault's Mother Goose

How is the rider controlling the goose? If you look at the image you will see the river Ouse coming out of the rider's mouth and going to the goose's ear, then on to its mouth at Wellingborough. Of course its a lot clearer on a map.
Can you see what Bulldognic noticed? There is a large figure of Homer Simpson on the left of the image, the bottom of his eyeball resting on top of the goose's head. Unbelievably, he too is whispering into the goose's ear while looking directly up at the rider.
If you look at the Goose and Rider section of my web site you will see how this shocking image was found and what it represents. You will then see how Homer Simson fits in perfectly as modern man.

So we have the ear that one of the C's surround in the Teniers above being featured in the English landscape. What about the other C, the one that surrounds an eye in the Teniers?
Homer is looking at the head of the rider, presumably into her eye.
By pure coincidence, there is a village called Eye not more than two miles to the east Peterborough, the town that forms the head of the rider.

Unbelievable isnt it. Beyond belief. Mad. Yet there it is. Check out the web site for more.

If you havn't had enough and want more now, check this out.

(Taken from 1984 mapping)

Have a look at Bedford, the town that looks as though its clinging to Homer's navel with its teeth.
Tell me you have never seen that hairstyle before.

But the most incredible coincidence of all is that the tableau in the landscape in England is telling us exactly the same thing as the Teniers paintings - that we are spiritually dead.
Tell me that Bart and Homer don't personify it!!

wayward · **Posted:** 21 Jan 2010 3:13 am

Ren man,You are so close,I'll try this again,forget the horn on top,I have no idea what that represents.You do have the right painting,I have good info that is the one that was in the Louvre,btw,it does not matter if B.S. ever got a copy or not.The horse is subliminal,and only his right side shows.The bats ears are his" nostrils"(important),you have the right ear,the line down the right side of his body is easily visable.When I say right side I mean left to the viewer.I think even Sheila should be able to see it.Just below the right ear is the eye.If you don't see it now I positively give up.If you do see it you will know why it is the horse of god. Bill

rain · **Posted:** 21 Jan 2010 7:32 am

Quote:

Here we go again....

Chicken & bat guano is high in Nitrogen because of the Uric acid content, also high in phosphorus and ammonia.
I thought it was the Uric acid bit that was interesting because of the guano being excreted into the water jug...water that comes from the natural source that is also shown in these paintings.

You have to remember that Saint Anthony was a Desert Father in the Natron Valley/Wadi Natrum which has a Subaqueous anoxic environment like the Dead sea and the Red sea areas.The monastic community was formed in the second half of the 4th century in natural or man made caves....recent research shows that, most probably, the initial community was formed around a deserted massive defense tower, built by the Romans, to defend the salt and Natron production of the Wadi.

Saint Anthony decided to follow this tradition and headed out into the alkaline desert region called the Nitra in Latin (Wadi El Natrun today), about 95 km west of Alexandria, some of the most rugged terrain of the Western Desert. Here he remained for some thirteen years.

In the Old Testament rather than Natrum they use the word Neter which is also a common name for the abode of the dead. It means the "divine subterranean place"

Natron (Na2CO3, sodium bicarbonate) was an important material used for mummification, glassmaking, and to preserve food.Used in mummification because it absorbs water and behaves as a drying agent. Moreover, when exposed to moisture the carbonate in natron increases pH, which creates a hostile environment for bacteria. In some cultures natron was thought to enhance spiritual safety for both the living and the dead.

So we have an Alkaline mineral water mixed with a high Nitrate Uric acid....... more later must dash.

I think you mean sodium carbonate not sodium bicarbonate although I'm not very good at chemistry either.

Quote:

Sodium carbonate
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Sodium carbonate

other names[hide]Soda ash
Washing soda
Soda crystals
Identifiers
CAS number 497-19-8 Y,
5968-11-6 (monohydrate)
6132-02-1 (dechydrate)
PubChem 10340
ChemSpider ID 9916
EC number 207-838-8
RTECS number VZ4050000
Properties
Molecular formula Na2CO3
Molar mass 105.9884 g/mol (anhydrous)
124.00 g/mol (monohydrate)
286.14 g/mol (decahydrate)
Appearance White solid, hygroscopic
Density 2.54 g/cm3 (anhydrous)
2.25 g/cm3 (monohydrate)
1.46 g/cm3 (decahydrate)
Melting point 851 °C (anhydrous)
100 °C (decomp, monohydrate)
34 °C (decomp, decahydrate)

Boiling point 1600 °C (anhydrous)

Solubility in water 22 g/100 ml (20 °C)
Solubility insoluble in alcohol, ethanol
Basicity (pKb) 3.67
Refractive index (nD) 1.495 (anhydrous)
1.420 (monohydrate)
Structure
Coordination
geometry trigonal bipyramidal
Hazards
MSDS Safety Data Sheet External MSDS
EU Index 011-005-00-2
EU classification Irritant (Xi)
R-phrases R36
S-phrases (S2), S22, S26
NFPA 704 011
Flash point Non-flammable
Related compounds
Other anions Sodium bicarbonate
Other cations Lithium carbonate
Potassium carbonate
Rubidium carbonate
Caesium carbonate
Related compounds Ammonium carbonate
Natron
Sodium percarbonate
Y (what is this?) (verify)
Except where noted otherwise, data are given for materials in their standard state (at 25 °C, 100 kPa)
Infobox references
Sodium carbonate (also known as washing soda, soda crystals or soda ash), Na2CO3, is a sodium salt of carbonic acid. It most commonly occurs as a crystalline heptahydrate, which readily effloresces to form a white powder, the monohydrate; and is domestically well known for its everyday use as a water softener. It has a cooling alkaline taste, and can be extracted from the ashes of many plants. It is synthetically produced in large quantities from table salt in a process known as the Solvay process.

Contents [hide]
1 Uses
1.1 Other applications
2 Occurrence
3 Production
3.1 Mining
3.2 Barilla and kelp
3.3 Leblanc process
3.4 Solvay process
3.5 Hou's process
4 References
5 External links

[edit] Uses
The manufacture of glass is the most important use of sodium carbonate. When it is combined with sand (SiO2) and calcium carbonate (CaCO3) and heated to very high temperatures, then cooled very rapidly, glass is produced. This type of glass is known as soda lime glass.

Sodium carbonate is also used as a relatively strong base in various settings. For example, sodium carbonate is used as a pH regulator to maintain stable alkaline conditions necessary for the action of the majority of developing agents.[citation needed] It is a common additive in municipal pools used to neutralize the acidic effects of chlorine and raise pH.[1] In cooking, it is sometimes used in place of sodium hydroxide for lying, especially with German pretzels and lye rolls. These dishes are treated with a solution of an alkaline substance in order to change the pH of the surface of the food and thus improve browning.

In taxidermy, sodium carbonate added to boiling water will remove flesh from the skull or bones of trophies to create the "European skull mount" or for educational display in biological and historical studies.

In chemistry, it is often used as an electrolyte. This is because electrolytes are usually salt-based, and sodium carbonate acts as a very good conductor in the process of electrolysis. Additionally, unlike chloride ions which form chlorine gas, carbonate ions are not corrosive to the anodes. It is also used as a primary standard for acid-base titrations because it is solid and air-stable, making it easy to weigh accurately.

Electron Density of Na2CO3 computed with Ghemical/MPQC at the RHF 6-311G** level of theory.
Electrostatic potential of Na2CO3 computed with Ghemical/MPQC at the RHF 6-311G** level of theory.In domestic use, it is used as a water softener during laundry. It competes with the ions magnesium and calcium in hard water and prevents them from bonding with the detergent being used. Without using washing soda, additional detergent is needed to soak up the magnesium and calcium ions. Called Washing Soda, Soda crystals or Sal Soda[2] in the detergent section of stores, it effectively removes oil, grease, and alcohol stains. Sodium carbonate is also used as a descaling agent in boilers such as found in coffee pots, espresso machines, etc.[citation needed]

In dyeing with fiber-reactive dyes, sodium carbonate (often under a name such as soda ash fixative or soda ash activator) is used to ensure proper chemical bonding of the dye with the fibers, typically before dyeing (for tie dyes), mixed with the dye (for dye painting), or after dyeing (for immersion dyeing).[3]

[edit] Other applications
Sodium carbonate is a food additive (E500) used as an acidity regulator, anti-caking agent, raising agent and stabilizer. It is one of the components of kansui, a solution of alkaline salts used to give ramen noodles their characteristic flavor and texture.[4][5] Sodium carbonate is also used in the production of sherbet powder. The cooling and fizzing sensation results from the endothermic reaction between sodium carbonate and a weak acid, commonly citric acid, releasing carbon dioxide gas, which occurs when the sherbet is moistened by saliva.

As a food additive (E500), it is used in the production of snus (Swedish style snuff) to stabilize the pH of the final product. [6] In Sweden, snus is regulated as a food product because it is put into the mouth, requiring pasturization and only ingredents that are approved as food additives.

Sodium carbonate is used by the brick industry as a wetting agent to reduce the amount of water needed to extrude the clay.[citation needed]

In casting, it is referred to as "bonding agent" and is used to allow wet alginate to adhere to gelled alginate.[7]

Sodium carbonate is used in toothpastes, where it acts as a foaming agent, an abrasive, and to temporarily increase mouth pH.

Sodium carbonate may be used for safely cleaning silver. First, aluminium foil is added to a glass or ceramic container, and covered with very hot water and some sodium carbonate. Silver items are dipped into this "bath" to clean them, making sure the silver makes contact with the aluminium foil. Finally, the silver is rinsed in water and let to dry.[8]

Quote:

Main article: Solvay process
In 1861, the Belgian industrial chemist Ernest Solvay developed a method to convert sodium chloride to sodium carbonate using ammonia. The Solvay process centered around a large hollow tower. At the bottom, calcium carbonate (limestone) was heated to release carbon dioxide:

CaCO3 → CaO + CO2
At the top, a concentrated solution of sodium chloride and ammonia entered the tower. As the carbon dioxide bubbled up through it, sodium bicarbonate precipitated:

NaCl + NH3 + CO2 + H2O → NaHCO3 + NH4Cl
The sodium bicarbonate was then converted to sodium carbonate by heating it, releasing water and carbon dioxide:

2 NaHCO3 → Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2
Meanwhile, the ammonia was regenerated from the ammonium chloride byproduct by treating it with the lime (calcium hydroxide) left over from carbon dioxide generation:

CaO + H2O → Ca(OH)2
Ca(OH)2 + 2 NH4Cl → CaCl2 + 2 NH3 + 2 H2O
Because the Solvay process recycles its ammonia, it consumes only brine and limestone, and has calcium chloride as its only waste product. This made it substantially more economical than the Leblanc process, and it soon came to dominate world sodium carbonate production. By 1900, 90% of sodium carbonate was produced by the Solvay process, and the last Leblanc process plant closed in the early 1920s.

Quote:

Sodium bicarbonate
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Sodium Bicarbonate

IUPAC name [hide]
Sodium hydrogen carbonate
Other names Sodium bicarbonate
Bicarbonate of soda
Baking soda
Sodium hydrogencarbonate
Nahcolite
Identifiers
CAS number 144-55-8 Y
PubChem 516892
ChemSpider ID 8609
RTECS number VZ0950000
Properties
Molecular formula CHNaO3
Molar mass 84.01 g mol−1
Appearance white crystalline solid
Odor odorless
Density 2.173 g/cm3
Melting point decomp: 323.15 K (50 °C) - 543.15 K (270 °C)

Solubility in water 7.8 g/100 mL (18 °C)
10 g/100 mL (20 °C)
Solubility insoluble in alcohol, ether
Acidity (pKa) 10.3
Refractive index (nD) 1.3344
Hazards
MSDS External MSDS
EU Index Not listed
NFPA 704 010
Flash point Non-flammable
LD50 4220 mg/kg
Related compounds
Other anions Sodium carbonate
Other cations Potassium bicarbonate
Ammonium bicarbonate
Related compounds Sodium bisulfate
Sodium hydrogen phosphate
Y (what is this?) (verify)
Except where noted otherwise, data are given for materials in their standard state (at 25 °C, 100 kPa)
Infobox references
Sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydrogen carbonate is the chemical compound with the formula NaHCO3. Sodium bicarbonate is a white solid that is crystalline but often appears as a fine powder. It can be used to experiment and is not very dangerous. It has a slight alkaline taste resembling that of washing soda (sodium carbonate). It is a component of the mineral natron and is found dissolved in many mineral springs. The natural mineral form is known as nahcolite. It is found in its dissolved form in bile, where it serves to neutralize the acidity of the hydrochloric acid produced by the stomach, and is excreted into the duodenum of the small intestine via the bile duct. It is also produced artificially.

Since it has long been known and is widely used, the salt has many related names such as baking soda, bread soda, cooking soda, bicarbonate of soda. Colloquially, its name is shortened to sodium bicarb, bicarb soda, or simply bicarb. The word saleratus, from Latin sal æratus meaning "aerated salt", was widely used in the 19th century for both sodium bicarbonate and potassium bicarbonate. The term has now fallen out of common usage.

Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Production
3 Mining
4 Chemistry
4.1 Thermal decomposition
5 Applications
5.1 Cooking
5.2 Neutralization of acids and bases
5.3 Medical uses
5.4 Personal hygiene
5.5 Soda loading
5.6 As a cleaning agent
5.7 Miscellaneous
6 See also
7 References
8 Further reading
9 External links

[edit] History
The ancient Egyptians used natural deposits of natron, a mixture consisting mostly of sodium carbonate decahydrate and sodium bicarbonate. The natron was used as a cleansing agent like soap.

In 1791, a French chemist, Nicolas Leblanc, produced sodium bicarbonate as we know it today. In 1846 two New York bakers, John Dwight and Austin Church, established the first factory to develop baking soda from sodium carbonate and carbon dioxide.[1]

rain · **Posted:** 21 Jan 2010 7:44 am

BTW thank you Sheila I appreciate you answering my question, as you can see I'm examining the information that you have offered on the Chicky Poo and St Anthony.

the reason I was able to pick up the difference (and it has nothing to with RLC) is I read The mysterious island by Jules Verne awhile ago and it deals with making soda ash on the fly etc...

A very good book if you're ever stuck on deserted island. :lol:

Just thought I'd point that out and I look forward to anymore information you have to offer on the topic.

Sheila · **Posted:** 21 Jan 2010 9:09 am

yes, it should read sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate....

RenaissanceMan · **Posted:** 21 Jan 2010 6:09 pm

Wayward, still cannot see any sign of a horse. You should outline it and post via imageshack etc. Sounds like you need to explain the "of God" link in detail as well and not just say its obvious. The 'horn' is the other ear formed by the arm of the demon coming over the rock.

Could Teniers have meant this to be Cerberus? If so, why didn't he make the 'horn' arm more like the other ear? Are the two square Cs just coincidence? Presumably they would represent the other two heads, you wouldn't need another C. Thats the problem with shapes in a painting, its all presumably and maybe unless the links are very clear. Some may think the Cerberus links are clear enough, others will think its all rubbish.

I think there are enough links in the other paintings without this probable Cerberus not to need to worry about it.

wayward · **Posted:** 21 Jan 2010 6:21 pm

Re Man, PM me and I will send it to you. Bill

RenaissanceMan · **Posted:** 22 Jan 2010 12:18 am

Something did come of this Cerberus stuff. Looking Cerberus up, i found he was the object of Hercules' 12th and final labour. Very important given the subject of the Poussin, partner of the Teniers.
Even more important is that Hercules freed Theseus while he was in the underworld. Apparently Theseus left a part of his thigh behind as Hercules was not able to free it.
So Theseus was wounded in the thigh, making him an early equivalent of the Fisher King, king of the Grail Castle and cause of the wasteland.
This should make us think of the myth of Theseus and Ariadne, and the Labyrinth with the Minotaur at the centre.

Ariadne might make us think of this:

She is exceptionally important.

Sheila · **Posted:** 22 Jan 2010 9:31 am

Ariadne makes us think of an octopus?

....i'm all ears.

ndawe · **Posted:** 22 Jan 2010 10:26 am

And she's apparently all legs.

Sheila · **Posted:** 22 Jan 2010 5:54 pm

RM....If you search for the island of Euboia and it's west coastal port of Eretria you will see where this image comes from...this coin is from the 5th century.

Here are more of these lovely coins.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&r ... a=N&tab=wi

Sheila · **Posted:** 23 Jan 2010 1:43 pm

....all i can hear is the furious rustle of turning pages as the whole forum decamps to their bookshelves

rain · **Posted:** 23 Jan 2010 2:30 pm

They might get lost isn't it Euboea as well.

lovuian · **Posted:** 24 Jan 2010 6:56 am

Sargon of Akkad established an enclave in Ugarit when he expanded Akkadian Empire (later Babylonian) to the Mediterranean. Akkadian became the Lingua Franca = diplomat language and for instance in Amarna library we find a tablet in Akkadian from Phoenician City Tyre. After them followed maybe the Babylonians and Hammurabi 1792 - 1750 is the best known.

For the Akkadians/ Babylonians Ugarit was a good transit harbour to the cedar and goods of the Levant as well as copper and olive oil from Cyprus as nearest. The trade with these started in 4th millennium BC when Sumerians also were mining in Sinai. The cities in Canaan learnt how to barter. Trade is a matter of using the balance so that seller and buyer get satisfied. We see a couple of balances in our rock-carvings so people discussed methods of bartering.

Ugarit, Ancient City near Latakia in Syria invented an alphabet using Akkadian cuneiform. From the beginning they used 30 letters and it was reduced to 22 or 25. They have found tablets in Ugarit, Sumerian, Hurrian and Akkadian and with 7 different scripts. For instance neighbouring Byblos used its own script that reminds a little about Cypriot

The Ugarit texts seem to tell us about the step between original "natural World Order" and the urbanised that is far from nature

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~catshaman/09handman/0cadmus.htm

Acadians

RenaissanceMan · **Posted:** 24 Jan 2010 11:10 am

Nicely found Sheila,

A coin featuring Hathor, ancient cow goddess, in the same mould as Isis, with her cow horns, and Rhea, mother of Zeus, who it is said formed the Milky Way with a spurt of her milk. All aspects of the ancient Mother Goddess, Rhea being the oldest.
Seven drops of milk are shown on the ground. Seven drops that bring the barren land to life.
She is pregnant with a strange shape that has the power to transform.

It is a little like the crescent moon on its back. A circular shape floats just above it. Originally representing the full moon, we can look on it as the sun as ultimately the meaning is the same.
The sun and moon combine to produce perfection.

Or we can look upon it as a chalice, the chalice of the Grail perhaps, where the Dove descends to lift the curse.

Or we can look upon it as the container of the wine, with the bread about to be added.

Or maybe we could look upon it in terms of the Fleury tableau, with open hands reaching out for what is about to be given.

We could even look upon it as a pearl, about to be swallowed by a fish.

Which ever symbolism we choose, the meaning is the same. Throughout the years the hope has been the same and the symbolism has remained constant.

The octopus is different. Whereas the symbolism on the face is open and only bounded by the round edge of the coin, the octopus is enclosed by a square, symbolising worldly things. The base of the octopus even touches the edge of the square, the edge having been distorted to meet it.

The most obvious thing about the octopus is its encircling arms, even the suckers are shown.
These are the things that in open water would encircle and drag you down to oblivion.

Yet the very fact that it is shown touching the surrounding square makes it look as though it could be a vase sitting on a windowsill with some strange plant growing out of the top ......

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