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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2012 6:49 pm 
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Grand Master

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And now today we see the latest leaked document news showing Obama bowing down and giving in to the international corporations in direct antithesis to his consumer protection promises.

Quote:
Much of the document focuses on granting multinational corporations, specifically those from overseas, more political power through clauses that will anger environmental activists and labor unions. As established by the document, international multinational corporations would be able to appeal American laws regulating trade to an international tribunal, which would then rule for or against the request.

The document’s contents are expected to instigate significant backlash against the Obama administration, as they reveal the President’s intent on reneging against campaign promises he made back in 2008. While Obama promised to avoid “bilateral trade agreements that stop the government” from protecting its citizens, the leaked document uncovers a different face of the Obama administration in its dealings with multinational corporations.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/obama-in ... nt-leaked/


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2012 7:48 pm 
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TCJ wrote:
And now today we see the latest leaked document news showing Obama bowing down and giving in to the international corporations in direct antithesis to his consumer protection promises.

Quote:
Much of the document focuses on granting multinational corporations, specifically those from overseas, more political power through clauses that will anger environmental activists and labor unions. As established by the document, international multinational corporations would be able to appeal American laws regulating trade to an international tribunal, which would then rule for or against the request.

The document’s contents are expected to instigate significant backlash against the Obama administration, as they reveal the President’s intent on reneging against campaign promises he made back in 2008. While Obama promised to avoid “bilateral trade agreements that stop the government” from protecting its citizens, the leaked document uncovers a different face of the Obama administration in its dealings with multinational corporations.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/obama-in ... nt-leaked/


On se pose des questions sur les pretendus-Democrates qui soutiennent Obama coute-que-coute. Ils feraient sans doute mieux d'abandonner leurs pretensions et de voter pour le "real deal", le candidat Republicain. Surtout quand ils ont le culot d'essayer de faire la morale aux autres!


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2012 8:30 pm 
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http://liquidfluoridethoriumreactor.gle ... ear-waste/

Here's an interesting article on the capabilities of these Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors if you can get past the scientific figures n' stuff......The Thorium boys contend that LFTRs can deliver clean, safe, cheap power and that they can also reduce the radioactivity of our existing deadly stockpiles which amount to megatons of radioactive waste/spent fuel, from a 300,000 year problem down to a 300-year problem by using it as a secondary fuel.... using it to run the Reactors.

I'm all for solar technology but it won't get rid of the existing nuclear waste and here we have a Nuclear Reactor that;

• uses no water and so can’t have high pressure steam or hydrogen explosions,

• with fuel that can’t have a nuclear melt down,

• that fissions over 99% of its fuel so there’s no waste needing storage for hundreds of thousands of years,

• that can consume spent nuclear fuel from other reactors.


This technology will obviously be too late to save the Japanese people and all that are downwind of the unfolding disaster but i feel a need to research and read up on Thorium and Monazite sands.


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2012 9:03 pm 
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The below link's second video is two hours but the first few minutes explain the processes in a nutshell. Well done.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gor ... agate-hard


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2012 9:22 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Thanks TCJ, in a nutshell indeed....an excellent 5 minute TED talk.


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2012 9:59 pm 
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Grand Master
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wayward wrote:

This is of course MHO, but, I believe the only long term answer with today's technology is nuclear power, plug in cars and shoot the waste to "Ra". Certainly there will be accidents, but todays power plants are much more advanced than those from only a few years ago. One thing that should probably not be done is to build a nuclear power plant over a major fault zone. Again, only IMHO :wink:. The winky is for Sparty



You'd be more than happy to have the next new one in your back yard then Bill?

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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2012 10:05 pm 
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Grand Master
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Tertius wrote:
Heureusement que ce n'est certainement pas vers vous qu'on se tourne pour les solutions!



Yes, of course. Radioactive waste could easily be encapsulated in swiss cheese buried under Mont Blanc!

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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2012 10:56 pm 
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Quote:
shoot the waste to "Ra"


A massive, unprecedented in scope and costly expenditure with a very high risk of disastrous failures. It's not just the spent fuel rods that need more responsible addressing, but all manner of highly contaminated construction materials and machinery parts that need disposing of also.
I'd wondered once if dumping it all into an ocean subduction crevasse would be an answer but then one day radioactive volcanoes could be a harsh realty. Maybe not, but it seems un-wise.


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2012 11:23 pm 
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Grand Master
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The other side of the thorium question:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... ar-uranium

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E. P. Thompson, The Poverty of Theory


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 12:12 am 
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High King

Joined: 11 Nov 2009 4:34 pm
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Location: traverse city,michigan
hotspur wrote:
wayward wrote:

This is of course MHO, but, I believe the only long term answer with today's technology is nuclear power, plug in cars and shoot the waste to "Ra". Certainly there will be accidents, but todays power plants are much more advanced than those from only a few years ago. One thing that should probably not be done is to build a nuclear power plant over a major fault zone. Again, only IMHO :wink:. The winky is for Sparty



You'd be more than happy to have the next new one in your back yard then Bill?



Yes, just as you would like to have the necessary garbage dump in your backyard.

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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 12:24 am 
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Grand Master
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wayward wrote:
hotspur wrote:
wayward wrote:

This is of course MHO, but, I believe the only long term answer with today's technology is nuclear power, plug in cars and shoot the waste to "Ra". Certainly there will be accidents, but todays power plants are much more advanced than those from only a few years ago. One thing that should probably not be done is to build a nuclear power plant over a major fault zone. Again, only IMHO :wink:. The winky is for Sparty



You'd be more than happy to have the next new one in your back yard then Bill?



Yes, just as you would like to have the necessary garbage dump in your backyard.




Which garbage dump would that be Bill?

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"That historical explanation cannot deal in absolutes and cannot adduce sufficient causes greatly irritates some simple and impatient souls"
E. P. Thompson, The Poverty of Theory


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 12:26 am 
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Interesting link hotspur, thanks. From the comments;

Quote:
No a Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactor did not run ever at Oak Ridge. A uranium fueled molten salt reactor ran at Oak Ridge. There are many possible designs for molten salt reactors and LFTR is but one (promising) design.

Playing fast and loose with terminology is a sure indication that the author is not interested in presenting an informative and accurate piece, but rather a low grade political polemic.


Not sure if the writer above was being too harsh but the article's author failed to understand that the fissile materials that could be used for weaponry are intermixed with another similar uranium isotope which make refining so dangerous as to be practically impossible.

There's confusion running about different processes also.

Quote:
the Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor (LFTR). LFTR is a radically different approach to nuclear power, an approach strongly favored by the creator of today's reactors, Alvin Weinberg. Despite holding key patents on today's reactor technology, Weinberg insisted that LFTR be pursued as the safest, most environmentally responsible alternative. Facing political opposition, research was halted, Weinberg passed on, and until recently the technology was forgotten.


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 12:56 am 
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High King

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Location: traverse city,michigan
hotspur wrote:
wayward wrote:

This is of course MHO, but, I believe the only long term answer with today's technology is nuclear power, plug in cars and shoot the waste to "Ra". Certainly there will be accidents, but todays power plants are much more advanced than those from only a few years ago. One thing that should probably not be done is to build a nuclear power plant over a major fault zone. Again, only IMHO :wink:. The winky is for Sparty


Yes, just as you would like to have the necessary garbage dump in your backyard.


Which garbage dump would that be Bill?[/quote]


I am referring to imminent domain. Of course I don't want a nuclear power plant in my backyard, any more than you would want a garbage dump in your backyard. But governments, being what they are, can put them any where they wish, as well as they can highways. If it is considered good for the majority (some countrys not even that), if you know what I mean.
I still think it is important to remember that France produces some 80% of its electricity from nuclear power.

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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 12:59 am 
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Grand Master
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wayward wrote:
I am referring to imminent domain. Of course I don't want a nuclear power plant in my backyard, any more than you would want a garbage dump in your backyard. But governments, being what they are, can put them any where they wish, as well as they can highways. If it is considered good for the majority (some countrys not even that), if you know what I mean.
I still think it is important to remember that France produces some 80% of its electricity from nuclear power.



The thing is Bill, it will always be in someone's "backyard" - as long as it's not our own.

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"That historical explanation cannot deal in absolutes and cannot adduce sufficient causes greatly irritates some simple and impatient souls"
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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 1:06 am 
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High King

Joined: 11 Nov 2009 4:34 pm
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Location: traverse city,michigan
hotspur wrote:
wayward wrote:
I am referring to imminent domain. Of course I don't want a nuclear power plant in my backyard, any more than you would want a garbage dump in your backyard. But governments, being what they are, can put them any where they wish, as well as they can highways. If it is considered good for the majority (some countrys not even that), if you know what I mean.
I still think it is important to remember that France produces some 80% of its electricity from nuclear power.



The thing is Bill, it will always be in someone's "backyard" - as long as it's not our own.



No hotspur. it will be in whosever backyard the (your) government wishes to put it in, you will have no say in the matter. I don't want it and neither do you, but for the common cause someone will get it. This is why I referenced the garbage dump, it will be somewhere. If it is my own I certainly will complain, and what good will that do me? I think that there are over 20 nuclear power plants (not reactors, power plants) in France, whose backyards are they in?

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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 1:18 am 
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Grand Master
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wayward wrote:
I still think it is important to remember that France produces some 80% of its electricity from nuclear power.




The watchdog estimates the changes would cost tens of billions of euros.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16393560


BTW, the Three Mile Island plant failure was not the result of being located on an active fault. (There's an idea for you Bill. If you want to avoid the location of a nuclear power plant in your backyard, sit yourself on an active fault - hopefully the authorities will have the sense not to build on one.)

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Last edited by hotspur on 14 Jun 2012 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 1:25 am 
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High King

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hotspur wrote:
wayward wrote:
I still think it is important to remember that France produces some 80% of its electricity from nuclear power.




The watchdog estimates the changes would cost tens of billions of euros.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16393560


BTW, the Three Mile Island plant failure was not the result of the result being located on an active fault. (There's an idea for you Bill. If you want to avoid the location of a nuclear power plant in your backyard, sit yourself on an active fault - hopefully the authorities will have the sense not to build on one.)



I believe some of the problems with Three Mile have been addressed, and certainly there is more advancement to come.
Hmmm, build on a fault zone to avoid having a nuclear power plant in your backyard, why didn't I think of that?

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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 2:05 am 
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The Diablo Canyon facility in California has the same build time-frame and basic plant design as Japan's.

Image

Quote:
The arrow below the red A balloon is where there was quite a big tsunami surge in the past


Quote:
However, by the time of the plant’s completion in 1973, a seismic fault, the Hosgri fault, had been discovered several miles offshore. This fault had a 7.1 magnitude quake 10 miles offshore on November 4, 1927, and thus was capable of generating forces equivalent to approximately 1/16 of those felt in the 1906 San Francisco earthquake.[4] The company responded to the resulting protests by improving the structural integrity of the building.

We now know for a fact that nearly identical nuclear stations in Japan sited nearly exactly the same distance from the ocean in a nearly exactly the same setting…FAILED BADLY.


http://emsnews.wordpress.com/2011/03/13 ... goes-down/


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 6:26 am 
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Queen Bee
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Quote:
If you want to avoid the location of a nuclear power plant in your backyard, sit yourself on an active fault - hopefully the authorities will have the sense not to build on one.


unless the authorities are French obviously....they have an unfailing habit.

....and let's not even go down the route of the Japanese locations or the proposed Italian venture.


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 6:37 am 
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Queen Bee
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and for those who are not aware of French stupidity....



We have the Cadarache facility which is just 60 kilometres north-east of the city of Marseille in the Bouches-du-Rhône, this is a French scientific research centre which specialises in nuclear energy research.
The Cadarache facility is one of the largest nuclear research sites in Europe, hosting 21 fixed nuclear installations, including reactors, waste stockpiling and recycling facilities and research centers.

One of the most notable nuclear installations at Cadarache is the ITER experimental nuclear fusion tokamak, which is expected to be completed by 2018. When operational, ITER is hoped to be the first large-scale fusion reactor to produce more energy than is used to initiate its fusion reactions. Other nuclear installations at Cadarache include the Tore Supra tokamak – a predecessor to ITER – and the Jules Horowitz Reactor, a 100-megawatt research reactor which is planned for completion in 2015.

Numerous nuclear research activities are conducted at Cadarache, including mixed-oxide fuel (MOX) production, nuclear propulsion and fission reactor prototyping, nuclear fusion research and research into new forms of fission fuel. Nuclear waste is also treated and recycled at the site.

oh, and btw.....

Cadarache is situated on the Aix-en-Provence-Durance seismological fault, and lies close to another fault, Trévaresse. The Aix-Durance fault caused France's worst recorded earthquake in 1909


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 6:51 am 
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Queen Bee
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The oldest one in France is Fessenheim Nuclear Power Plant which is located in the Fessenheim commune in the Haut-Rhin department in Alsace in the north-eastern corner of the country, and basically slap-bang in the middle of Europe.

Due to its location in the Rhine Rift Valley near the fault that caused the 1356 Basel earthquake, there are serious safety concerns.....the Fessenheim plant is subject to particular risks from seismic activity and flooding.


There have been ongoing concerns about the seismic safety of the plant and, following the 2011 Fukushima nuclear accidents, there have been calls for the seismic risk to be re-evaluated based on a 7.2 magnitude earthquake; the plant was originally designed for a 6.7 magnitude earthquake. The Swiss cantons of Basel-Stadt, Basel-Landschaft and Jura have also said that they are to going to ask the French government to suspend the operation of Fessenheim while undertaking a safety review based on the lessons learned from Japan.

Despite regional concern over the plant in the aftermath of Fukushima, nuclear power remains popular in the commune of Fessenheim itself, where the plant has brought prosperity and employs many locals...which is the reaction you get throughout France when you wear a "Nuclear Power - No Thanks" T-shirt...taking away local jobs, how dare she!

Let's hope the new government follow through with their plans to decommission this old facility.


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 7:14 am 
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High King
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Sheila wrote:
The Despite regional concern over the plant in the aftermath of Fukushima, nuclear power remains popular in the commune of Fessenheim itself, where the plant has brought prosperity and employs many locals...which is the reaction you get throughout France when you wear a "Nuclear Power - No Thanks" T-shirt...taking away local jobs, how dare she!


You'd probably get the same reaction in Sellafield, Cumbria (Windscale, as was, before they "re-branded" it). I think I'd rather have no power for half the day, than live anywhere near one, but obviously I don't work in the industry, my livelihood doesn't depend on it, and I can afford to have a different perspective. But I still wouldn't build any more if it was up to me. Apparently there are about eighty of them, of different types, under construction around the world at the present time, mostly in China and India, and probably all sorts of cost cutting going on, and corners being cut.


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 7:23 am 
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Grand Master
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Also bear in mind that countries draw on each others power supplies in times of need. The UK 'borrows' electricity from France (with their agreement) on a daily basis when our own levels dip so i don't think it's a question of blaming one country over another.

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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 8:29 am 
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Queen Bee
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France is one of the few countries in the world with an active nuclear reprocessing program, with the COGEMA La Hague site, which is as close to the English channel as it gets and is probably closer to you guys that to us here in the Limousin.
Enrichment work, some MOX fuel fabrication, and other activities take place at the Tricastin Nuclear Power Centre. Enrichment is completely domestic and is powered by 2/3 of the output of the nuclear plant at Tricastin. Reprocessing of fuel from other countries has been done for the United States and Japan, who have expressed the desire to develop a more closed fuel cycle similar to what France has achieved. MOX fuel fabrication services have also been sold to other countries, notably to the USA for the Megatons to Megawatts Program, using Plutonium from dismantled nuclear weapons.

While France does not mine Uranium (any more) for the front end of the fuel cycle domestically, French companies have various holdings in the Uranium market....and don't get me started on that.

Final disposal of the high level nuclear waste is planned to be done at the Meuse/Haute Marne Underground Research Laboratory deep geological repository.


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 Post subject: Re: Plus de soixante ans apres..
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2012 8:39 am 
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Queen Bee
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it's not a question of blame, rather than a question of why locate such dangerous reactors in areas of high seismic risk....how on earth did the French win the ITER contract when the proposed building site at Cadarache is over the Aix-Durance fault which caused France's worst recorded earthquake in 1909...and by the way France only just pipped Japan to the post. How could anyone in their right mind believe that nuclear power or reprocessing plants can ever be designed, engineered or constructed to withstand the immense seismic activity accompanied by the tsunamis that Japan is prone to.
Only a couple of months back Italy was all up for starting it's reactor building programme before it got rattled by some rather severe earthquakes...how could anyone consider Italy as a safe location!


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