Arcadia Discussion Zone

"The old fleurs-de-lis, especially the ones found in our first kings' scepters, have a lot less in common with ordinary lilies than the flowers called flambas [in Occitan], or irises, from which the name of our own fleur-de-lis may derive. What gives some colour of truth to this hypothesis that we already put forth, is the fact that the French or Franks, before entering Gaul itself, lived for a long time around the river named Luts in the Netherlands. Nowadays, this river is still bordered with an exceptional number of irises —as many plants grow for centuries in the same places—: these irises have yellow flowers, which is not a typical feature of lilies but fleurs-de-lis. It was thus understandable that our kings, having to choose a symbolic image for what later became a coat of arms, set their minds on the iris, a flower that was common around their homes, and is also as beautiful as it was remarkable. They called it, in short, the fleur-de-lis, instead of the flower of the river of lis.

Oh dear...is he possibly writing a book about 'C' too?

I think we're gonna need another bottle of bubbly...

Tingra said:What web pages? I have never come across any that describe those coins in that way and believe me I have studied a lot of them. You cant make sweeping statements in huge letters ending with… “No errors there” and expect no come back, or state that other opinions are the correct one without knowing at least a little bit about the subject you are pontificating about.

I don’t profess to be an expert on this in any way shape or form, but I have studied these things for a long time Shasta, there are various explanations for the fleur de lis symbol depicted on the helmet of Constantine, the nail (Helena) is one of them and if you had even done a cursory search you would have known that.

No problem, If we continued I would end up boring you rigid with my conclusions on how the fleur de lis, oriflamme, graal, lance etc all became enshrined in a particular timeframe of events that changed European history as we know it, a fascinating subject for me but not everyone else, I realise that

Conflating the Constantine coin with mother Mary and the Lilly or whatever it was you said did make me laugh tho, I would love to see those links you mentioned so can you re post them please

Laters....Off to work

In the 14th century French writers asserted that the monarchy of France, which developed from the Kingdom of the West Franks, could trace its heritage back to the divine gift of royal arms received by Clovis. This story has remained popular, even though skepticism started in the 17th century and modern scholarship has established that the fleur-de-lis was a religious symbol before it was a true heraldic symbol. Along with true lilies, it was associated with the Virgin Mary, and in the 12th century Louis VI and Louis VII started to use the emblem, on scepters for example, so connecting their rulership with this symbol of saintliness. [the source for this is Michel Pastoureau, Heraldry: its origins and meaning p.99-]

Louis VII ordered the use of fleur-de-lis clothing in his son Philip's coronation in 1179, while the first visual evidence of clearly heraldic use dates from 1211.

...Constantine may have used the lily in any one of the older contexts listed in my post above, whether marshlands or to represent Christ or Mother Mary...or simply as a decorative element to say "see how pretty I am!"..

no need to repeat every possibility what was going on in his mind... numerous web sites that explore this in depth and say pretty much the same things over and over..which is what we could end up doing here..

Ahaa!! I knew that dreaded C- word was gonna pop up sooner or later. I`ve asked Isaac a few times about his research regarding the C word...but he never replies. A true professional indeed.

I guess it takes awhile to invent these elaborate tales.

I assumed when you said numerous websites explore the theory and repeat it over and over that Constantine (A pagan roman emperor) used a fleur de lis to represent Christ or mother Mary you meant more than a whicky article, hence my curiosity……. that says no such thing BTW.

Hmmm, I wonder why he doesn’t reply to you CG, I would hazard a guess that by saying he is inventing elaborate tales is not going to endear him to your cause, he probably reads this forum like eveyone else

TCP...This is from the British des Marets family, from where we shared a common origin; It appears online here:
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.demarest/285.2/mb.ashx

The word Marez has these variations:Marès or Marés,desmarets, demorree, and about 50 more variations..
Martz France is about 25 miles north of Paris..Region Nord-Pas-de-Calais..Department Nord...Arrondissement Cambrai

Boullion was on the border with France...the border shifted several times and it is now in Belgium..
"In the Middle Ages Bouillon was a lordship within the Duchy of Lower Lorraine" thus putting it squarely in the same provence as Martz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouillon

I have passed your post on and waiting a reply from one of the US family members who is up on the current research.
Many kind thanks for all your help.

"EARLY GENEALOGICAL RECORDS

The earliest records of the desMarets family go back to about the sixth century and it is understood that these records were compiled by Louis the XIV of France to authenticate the lines of the nobility of France and are in Paris. The records herein printed, were developed originally by Jacques Joseph de Maretz, representing the Roman Catholic, South Netherland branch, and by Louis Trip de Marez representing the Protestant, North Netherland branch, in 1732. The family is recorded as having sprung from the house of the barons of Bousis, peers at Cambray, bearing in azure a cross argent.

I. Jean, Lord of Bousis, lived in the first half of the 11th Century married a sister of Eustace, Lord of Picquiguy, in Picardy, and had a son Baldwin, who became the first Lord of Marets, a fief comprising the town and vicinity of Marets, near Cambray."

II. Baldwin I, Lord des Marets, is mentioned among the nobles who took part in the Tournament of Anchin, in 1096, the original call-roll of which has been preserved. This tournament was preparatory to the First Crusade, and Baldwin took part in this crusade. His wife was Alice de Tyrel, sister of Allard de Tyrel, Lord of Poix , in the Land of Cambray, living at Cambray .

The participation of Baldwin (I) des Marets in the First Crusade can be proven historically. His name appears enrolled among the participants in the Tournament of Anchin, in 1096. Anchin was a Convent situated on a small island in the river Scarpe. Here Anselllm, Duke of Ribemont and Valenciennes, called together the chief nobles of his vicinity for a brilliant tournament, shortly after Peter of Aamiens had preached the crusade. All participants in the tournament took solemn oath that they would go on the crusade. The document of this oath still exists. Its text has been published in the original Latin, together with a French translation, in : 1'Histoire Genealogique de la Maison de Neufville, by A. C. de Neufville, 1859. The French text can also be found in: Dutilhoeul's "Petites Histoires de Flandres et d'Artois."

The deeds in Palestine of further members of the des Marets family of Cambray and Cambresis have been described by William, Archbishop of Tyre, in Phoenicia, who lived in the time of the 2nd Crusade and who was an eyewitness to many happenings, in his: "Historia Belli Sacri a Principibus Christianis in Palestine et in Oriente Gesti."

This work, after having existed in manuscript for many generations, was finally printed for the first time at Basel in 1549, and again, its Latin text accompanied by a French translation in 1844, by the "Academie des Inscriptions." A copy of this beautiful book is in the Royal Library at The Hague, Holland. It gives details about Baldwin II, des Marets, and his brother, Reginald, son-in-law of Josselin de Courtenay, Count of Edessa.

In Chapter XIV it is described how Baldwin des Marets in a nightly expedition accompanied Joselin with his horsemen, and how they crossed the river before Edessa. After the re-capture of Edessa by the Christian army, Baldwin des Marets was in command of the forces which operated in Northern Palestine, on the western borders of the county of Edessa and the northern portions of the County of Antioch, mainly for the protection of the road used by the Crusaders on their way to Jerusalem. A station on that road was named "Maresia," for the commander. Maresia, however, was never a separate county of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Formerly the name of the place had been "Germanica Caesarea," so named for Caesar Germanicus. In the mouth of the Turks, "Maresia" has become "Marash".

III. Baldwin II, Lord des Marets, received for his bravery in the Holy Land from the King of Jerusalem, in fief the city of "Rhosas," in Palestine which fact according to Lyle Carpentier's named genealogy caused his ancestral Arms to be augmented with four roses, or. These completed Arms, at least the shield , seem to have occurred on a medal, which is mentioned in the Will of Baldwin's great-grandson, Baldwin des Marets, Lord of Sorick. (The original Will is still in possession of the descendants of Jean des Marets (1518-1604), the de Marez-Oyens family at Amsterdam. It had in 1656 still the seven original seals, of which at present only one is left intact.)

Le Carpentier , in his work, "Histoire de Cambray," quotes the work of William, Archbishop of Tyre, folios 861, 896 and 900, so as to prove that this Baldwin des Marets, together with the Count of Edessa, Josselin de Courtenaay, re-occupied the City of Edessa in 1142, taking it from Sultan Noradin, and that Baldwin fell against the Turks in 1145.

Baldwin's younger brother, Reginald des Marets, is also said to have gained possessions in Palestine, the fief named "Maresia" after his hometown of Marez. This Reginald des Marets married a daughter of the Count of Edessa. His widow, after he had died without issue, remarried with Almaaarick, Count of Joppe, who in 1162 became King of Jerusalem. The above-named Will mentions Reginald's sword, which was given to him by his father-in-law, the Count of Edessa.

Baldwin II, Lord des Marets, married with the daughter of Eustace Grener, Constable of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, Lord of Sydon and of Caesarea, in the Holy Land. Their sons follow."

IV. Baldwin III, Lord des Marets, was the youngest son of Baldwin II and his wife,- - - - - Grener. After his two elder brothers had fallen in battle against the Turks, and after all his possessions in Palestine had fallen in hands of these "infidels," he returned to Cambresis, the land of his fathers. Some of his ancestral lands there he bequested to the Abbey of Saint Aubert, at Cambray. His wife was Melisande de Beauvoise. They had three sons.

1. Baldwin (IV), who follows below,

2. Goswin, who died in Palestine, and

3. (?) , whose direct line died out in the third generation

V. Baldwin IV, Lord des Marets, inherited his father's possessions in the Land of Cambray. In 1233 he gave these lands to the Abbey of Vaucelles and went to Palestine. There he fell in the battle of Ascalon, in 1239. He had married Gillette de Jauche, daughter of Simon de Jauche, Governor of Cambray. They had the following sons:

1. Baldwin, who follows below,

2. Hugo, who still possessed his great-uncle Reginald’s sword,

3. Jean, who became bailiff of Creveceur.
(The Act of Indemnity by which this last named Jean des Marets relinquished his rights to his paternal estate, leaving them to his eldest brother, Baldwin, is dated July 31, 1287. The original is with other family papers still in possession of the de Marez-Oyens family at Amsterdam, descendants of Jean des Marets (1518-1604).

"VI. Baldwin V, Lord des Marets, knight, was Lord of Sorick, Maretz, Vilers, Chesneaux, Hurtebise and Flechin. His will has been mentioned above. His wife was Ermegarde de Rambures, whose mother was of the house of Walincourt. They had five sons, three of whom are known:

1. William, who follow below,

2. Godwin, who’s direct male line died out in the 4th generation.

3. Hugo, who seems to have become the ancestor of the des Marez branch of Arras, bearing five, stead of four roses.

"VII. William des Marets, 6th Lord of Marets, Lord of Loges and Cheneaux, is mentioned, according to Le Carpentier, in Charters of the years 1293, 1331, and 1335, respectively to be found in the archives of the Abbey of Saint Aubert, at Cambray, at Walincourt, and at Verger Abbey.

His wife was Guiote de Hames, daughter of Walter de Hames, who in 1272 was bailiff of Courtenay, (Of this family came the well-known Nicolas de Hames, herald of the Golden Fleece, a Protestant in the eventful days of the beginning of the rebellion of the Netherlands against the tyrant Phillip II).

In 1293 William des Marets sold much of his land located near the Abbey of Saint Aubert. Of his marriage two children are known:

1. Baldwin, who follows below, and a daughter,

2. (?), who became the wife of Wigbold of Esquencourt.

VIII. Baldwin VI, 7th Lord des Marets, knight, Lord of Hurtebise, of half-Flehan, and of Eth, in Henault.

He married Agnes de Forest, daughter of Herbert de Forest. He died in the year 1331, and his widow in 1335, as appears from the above-mentioned Charters, in which also William, his father, is named.

This couple had five sons and two daughters. Of the daughters, the eldest became a nun. The youngest married with Jean de Lamelin, Lord of Fasnieres, in Henault. The sons were:

1. Baldwin, who follows below.

2. Jacques, Lord of Camerin, in Aartois,

3. Jean, Lord of Autrep,

4. William, Lord of Bossu, in Picardy, and of Fleurbay,

5. Pierre, who settled in Flanders, and whose direct line died out in the second generation.

The name Jacques des Marets, Lord of Camerin, changed his ancestral Arms, adding to it a chief azure charged with three roses, or. His brother, Jean des Marets, Lord of Autrep, also changed his Arms in manners following: quartered: in 1 and 4, in azure a cross argent; and 2 and 3, in azure four roses, or.

IX. Baldwin VII, 8th Lord des Marets, Lord of Hurtebise. His tomb is in the Church of Saint Andrews, at Catteau Cambresis.

He had for wife Jacqueline de Ranchicourt, lady of Remes, and of la Vacquerie. They had two sons:

1. Jean, who married a daughter of Walter (VI) of Enghien, and who left no issue. This Jean des Marets died of grief upon the news of the death of his friend, Sohier, Count of Brienne, second Duke of Athens, who had been beheaded at Quesnoy at the command of Albrecht of Bavaria, Count of Henault and of Holland, in 1366.

2. Baldwin, who follows below.

X. Baldwin VIII, 9th Lord des Marets, Lord of Eth and Hurtebise, by inheritage from his father, and Lord of Remes and la Vacquerie, by inheritage from his mother, became by purchase Lord of Farbus, in Artois.

He married Emma de Neuville, lady of Carnin, in Artois. He died at Cambray, in 1395, leaving one daughter and two sons:

1. Baldwin, who married and had only two daughters. His inherited lands therefore after his death were sold or divided.

2. Hugo, who follows below.

XI. Hugo, 10th Lord des Marets, Lord of Farbus, died in 1429.

His wife was Guillemette de Solomnes, of whom he had eleven children. Several of these children, males as well as females, entered ecclesiastical orders, and died unmarried. Two of his sons became founders of branches, namely:

1. Baldwin. He was the great-grandfather of Jean des Marets, who married Martha de Bernicourt, which last-named couple by the genealogists Le Vaillant and the Atteveld and Jacques des Marets (born 1519). (See above).

2. Reginald, who follows below.

XII. Reginald des Marets, Esquire, Doctor of Laws, was a magistrate at Cambray. He marries Agnes de la Saulx, of whom three sons:
1. Jean des Marets, who follows below,

2. Pierre des Marets, who married Agnes Shamart, of whom he had seven children, and numerous posterity,

3. Jacques des Marets, who was Canon of Saint Gery, at Cambray, and who died about A.D. 1500.

XIII. Jean des Marets, Esquire, Doctor of Laws, was a magistrate at Cambray. He married four times: Johanna Rosel, Marie de Franqueville, Catharine Gerardel and Aldegonde de l'Aoust. By his four marriages he had thirteen children; by Catharine Gerardel he had Jacques, born 1480-1500

(I believe at this point ...we still shared these common ancestors)...


XIV. Jacques des Marets, Sr., wife's name not found, had two sons: Jean born c. 1518 and Jacques born c. 1519.

XV. Jacques des Marets, founder of the Demares family in England, was born in the year 1519, and the fact that he was a brother of Jean des Marets, born 1518, founder of the Marees or de Marez family in Holland, has never been doubted. He fled during the religious and political persecutions by the Inquisition and the House of Hapsburg in the Netherlands with his family to Norwich, in England. This probably occurred in 1567. He and his family belonged to the Walloon Reformed Church at Norwich.

Jacques des Marets died at Norwich in 1604, the same year when his brother Jean died at Amsterdam. His wife was Antoinette Suceur.

In a power-of-attorney issued by his widow and heirs in 1604, he is called as having died at the age of eighty-five. This document was in 1732 in hands of Jacques Joseph de Marez se Sancourt, in the Land of Cambray.

From the above named document it appears that Jacques des Marets, of Norwich, England, and his wife, Antoinette Suceur, had three sons, namely: Francois, Pierre (who died before his father) and Jean, of whom Francois de Marets and Jean de Marets with their families were living at Norwich in 1604.

An excellent account of "The Walloons and Their Church at Norwich" is furnished by the late vice-president of the Huguenot Society of London, W. J.C. Noens (1888).

"Of the Marsh" indeed.... "Du Marais"

Now regarding TCP's request for info about the Baldwins and Godfreys and kings of the region during the First Crusade, I have been hounding relatives who maintain the ancestor site, also on Facebook.. to get a clarification. I did additional research into the whole region. Metz (of des Marets ) was actually the capitol city for an area that extended into 'Lower Lorraine'- Cambray-Walloon-Boullogne(Bollion)-Austrasia. This region is northeast of Paris.

To really confuse history further, sometimes the borders were changed, so Boullion was once in France but is now in Belgium...the castles for Godfrey de Boullion and Godfrey and Baldwin, lords des Marets, are still in the region and visited by family relatives. There are also sites online where you can see them.

Some were kings, some were knights and noblemen, but all were related, at the very least they were cousins...

This came about because of the quirky French laws of inheritance..every son was entitled to break off an equal share of his father's estate and call it his own..

and so from our common relative, (whomever that may have been) we have Godfrey of Boullion as King of Jerusalem, related to Godfrey des Marets and to Baldwin (of which many shared those names) knights and noblemen..all from exactly the same region. Metz was still considered the capitol at the time (if I recall correctly)..

My cousin Robert Demarest said this: " If the current line stands and I'm right with my other work, Godfrey and Baldwin are the brothers of Baldwin I Lord desMaret's wife, who was his cousin. That would make them roughly our 27th Great Uncles..."

Sorry, but this is the best I can do to this point. If I learn more, I will add to this..I never thought all this would ever come up again...In a way it's for the best....maybe helps to clear the air and start fresh.. I hope so.

This (des Marets) is what is known as a territorial surname, a consequence of feudal landownership. In medieval times in France, such a name indicated lordship, or ownership, of the village. But some early Norman nobles in England chose to drop the French derivations and call themselves instead after their new English holdings.

Thanks for all your research and input TCP...and what response are you expecting?
I am a Demarest, of that I am certain. And for certain I am descended from David and Marie (Soheir) Demarest...

From what the article says ..
no one is certain of every line going back...This refers to the European lineages.

Excellent research on your part... But never the less, certainly not conclusive....in the emails with my Demarest cousins, they have made journeys back to France and expended a lot of their own time and money into searching for Church and town records...

They have connected our family back to the First Crusades...of this they are certain..By your own comments above, the squibble seems to center around the House of Cambray connections. Nothing else.

I know their history since their arrival in America in the 1660's to escape religious persecution....that makes me proud....to know our family originated in in France over a thousand years ago, at a time when places were used to identify families...thus the descriptive location 'des Marets'..a thriving French city still existing today. And for certain I do know that family members, at their own expense, have been there to gather records..

Some family members were mentioned at the Crusades..that makes me proud, even if you insist to me that they were 'mere' water bearers for the troops....It changes nothing..if they were Crusaders or princes and kings.. or not...I would not be less proud ....because so few people in the world today have any records at all!

Why, you made me proud when you wrote above "There is no factual, documentary evidence that Demarests descended from David desMarest are in any way related to the des Marets family of Cambray/Cambrai."

You have verified what our family has said all along, that our family does indeed go back a long way. You quoted a comment made on a web site way back in 2004...8 years ago.....and since then family members have made the journeys to France at their own expense...gathering Church and town records to fill in the questionable pieces correctly. No one set out to commit a fraud or misrepresent anything..There are bound to be similar dilemmas in most family research. I praise the strong efforts this family has made to honestly get to the truth.

It will all get sorted out one way or another. It may simply depend on one record remaining to be discovered in one little Church somewhere in France, and I'm sure it will happen some day. .. but it wont change a thing about how proud I am, and it certainly wont change more than a line or two of my book, because that's not what my book is about.

My book is about a sense of God, and family, and history, and DNA, and terrorism that prevents us all from knowing more.

It's down to the DNA, Tim......the DNA.

Shasta wrote:
Some family members were mentioned at the Crusades..that makes me proud, even if you insist to me that they were 'mere' water bearers for the troops....It changes nothing..if they were Crusaders or princes and kings.. or not...I would not be less proud ....because so few people in the world today have any records at all!


TCP wrote: No, from the looks of it there were des Marets knights who did very well in the First Crusade. What's looking doubtful right now is whether or not your immigrant ancestor is any relation to them.

TCP said: And any genealogist who's ever worked with French records would spot the contradiction in any sort of claim that records might have been found recently in small village churches, since those records were consolidated in large departmental archives over two centuries ago. I have a feeling, however, that you're about to revise your narrative again to fit the facts.

TCP said: "I noticed that there is a Demarest DNA Project web page at Family Tree DNA.com that's been up since 2006 but has no members and no data. I wonder why that is?"

TCP said: Visiting the castles of Godfrey and Boullion are a waste of time for the Des Marets.

TCP..you emphasized that David Demarest of the 16oo's was not a "Lord"......why not? because he left what he had in France, and that included manor houses and French titles. As I recall (I will have to relocate the source again) he was a prosperous and respected attorney.
Regarding the dates for escaping religious persecution that you mentioned, this persecution and discrimination actually began in the 1500's...and that is when many fled to Zeeland (Brussels; question; are Brussels and the Netherlands the same? I know little of that region) including DesMarets..

"The Edict of St. Germain promulgated 36 years before by Catherine de Médici had granted limited tolerance to Huguenots, but was overtaken by events, as it was not formally registered until after the Massacre of Vassy on 1 March 1562, which triggered the first of the French Wars of Religion". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Nantes

Peter Minuet and the Purchase of Manhatten Island by the Dutch

"Peter Minuit was born in 1580 in Wesel. This was during a period of religious tensions between Protestants and Catholics polities following the Protestant Reformation that culminated in the Thirty Years' War. Minuit's Walloon family, originally from the French-speaking city of Tournai in modern day Belgium, was among those Protestants who migrated away from suppression under the Roman Catholic government of the Spanish Netherlands. In 1580, Minuit's family took refuge in the city of Wesel, which had become a haven for Protestants as early as 1540.

The Eighty Years' War split the Netherlands into a Catholic South and a Protestant North. The religious wars were concluded by the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. They would leave much of Germany devastated, though Westphalia suffered less than some areas. Protestant refugees from German states and France migrated to sympathetic nations and cities such as London. The neighboring Dutch Republic emerged in the 17th century as a dominant force in Europe."

He was a Walloon. His wife was a Huguenot, as was Marie Soheir-DesMarets. This suggests that the Minuets and the DesMarets were known to each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Minuit

It is hard to imagine that some who were from Marets France, and nearby regions, bore the name Des Marets and went to the First Crusade..but were not in any way related to other Des Marets who came from exactly the same areas and led to the Demarests in America? Can you explain how you came up with this theory? Of course they were related!

Yup. I am revising my narrative. I stand corrected. What they have been doing (as I've been told when I asked about this) is to track down families still in France who were mentioned in the Bibles and records brought with the immigrants to America..then they are asked to produce their Bibles and family records and so on,,,and so on, as far back as one can get this way...I cannot imagine their dedication, and the expenses they are willing to go through! They have my admiration.

Not if they are also researching old family Bibles and records in the region. They seem to have information that leads them back to this line of inquiry...We must wait and see what comes of it next.

Have a wonderful evening TCP...and thanks again for being so meticulous...it is always important to me to see how I have written things that get misunderstood, or may be inaccurate...I would rather correct these things than let misunderstandings and animosities and accusations hang in the air..
Best, Shasta

"In 1886, David D. Demarest published a speech entitled Huguenots On The Hackensack, drawing attention to the important historical role played by David desMarets in the settlement of modern-day Manhattan and Bergen County, New Jersey. Drawing strongly on Riker's Harlem, this document is significant today for two primary reasons: it was the first document to claim that David desMarets was born in 1620 in a town called Beauchamps in what is today northern France...

Notes for David Des Marets: "David Des Marets was a member of a distinguished family from the province of Picardy, France; descended from Baudoin, Seigneur des Marets, 1080 and also from his son Baudoin des Marets, "who made over to the Abbey of Mount St. Andre in 1190 several heritages situated in the Seigneury des Marets". The family seat was at Menil-le-Cressons and they were allied to the Cressons of Burgundy. A Huguenot, he fled with his parents to Sluis, Zealand, Holland c1635; was living in Leyden in 1640; removed to Mannheim, Germany. He became an Elder in the French Church at Mannheim on the Rhine and four of his children were baptised there. When the Palantine was threatened by neighbouring Catholic princes, they escaped by the Rhine river to Amsterdam. He left from Amsterdam in the "Bearer" to New Amstel on the Delaware River and made a return trip to Holland in 1657. He left from Amsterdam with wife and four children in the "Bonte Koe" (Bontica - Spotted Cow) to New Amsterdam in 1663. He commanded a company of the New Haarlem militia in the second Esopus War, 1663; was a delegate from Staten Island to the General Assembly (Landtag) of the New Netherlands and magistrate for Staten Island, 1664; one of the founders of New Haarlem and purchased land there in 1665; overseer, 1667--8, 1671-2; "schepen (alderman)", 1673; magistrate, 1673, 75; large landowner. He bought several thousand acres from the Tappon Indians in 1677 and founded the French Church at Kinderkameek. " Source: Compendium of American Genealogies "David des Marets left France with his family and lived 12 years in the Netherlands then went to the US; spent two years on Staten Island where he was connected with the Huguenot church, (the church contains a tablet in his memory), then 12 years in Haarlem, connected with the Dutch church. In 1677 he secured from the Indians and Sir George Carteret the French Patent of the Hackensack. In 1678 he came accompanied by seven adults of his own name; a few other French families--La Rou, de Viaux, DuRie. " Source: Holland Society of New York compiled genealog -------------------- IMMIGRATION: 1663, Bontecou to New Amsterdam -------------------- Married Marie Sohier at the French Church Middleburg, Zeeland, 7/24/1643.

They migrated to America sailing from Holland April 16,1663http://www.geni.com/people/David-Demarest/6000000003688449519

My goodness TCP! YOu have done an incredible amount of research into this branch of the Demarests!
But it is always in the direction of denegration. I'm sure that some will read your posts and benefit from your contributions..however there is always the possibility that many others (who admittedly know more about the family than I do)

will see the flaws in it and probably be well armed with counter arguments..

Demarests were probably just a bunch of wanna-bes, unrelated to the "big shot' demarests who road to the Crusades on white horses and were barons and princes....whilst these 'other' Demarests were pretenders on the other side of the swamps... hellraising rednecks, poor white folk who stole (or borrowed) a good family name and now are attempting to sulley it ! at least that's what you seem determined to prove here.

No matter what is said, you find a way to get those downgrading comments in. And so, it isnt the "facts" that we have been haggling over all this time.....

it's those little digs you like to get in to the conversations that tells me everything I need to know about you, and tells me this is an argument you want to win by degradation......not with "facts" that you selectively take out of context, out of narratives, and post to suite YOUR own agenda......something you repeatedly accuse me of...oh sure...we can go round and round with these posts..but I choose not to. This allows you the final word against me and my family.. you may (and probably will) accuse me of anything....

My silence is just an expression of my disgust with you...

You made yourself clear with this:
"You might want to take the inaccuracies seriously, remember that what's posted here stays up for an indefinite period of time and anyone using the proper search parameters can access it."

I'm sure that's exactly your intention, Tim, to point that out to as many as possible...I should really post rebuttal after rebuttal, or perhaps drag family members in so you can ask them where I am not up on this stuff..like the cousins who actually went to France...sorry, but I DID have to ask them about that because I honestly did not know much about it...I have always made that clear to you....that I know only a little of what the family told me...It was never imperative that I investigate further...I have many cousins who do that.

Frankly you have upset me and tired me out...

I wont go any further with you and I caution anyone reading these (I can't imagine why) that I left this hanging on purpose.

I am making no further efforts to explain myself or my family where TCP is concerned. When someone reveals such a persistent and determined agenda to undermine someone else., to expand as much energy as TCP has on all the above posts, then throw in disparaging remarks....it stops being about research and becomes a personality issue....

A prime example would be the way you just blew off our family name by saying that a Demarest in our family line was born in Picardy France, not in Marets, and probably from a swamp in Picardy. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read that.. That tells me everything I need to know about your agenda and about how you intended to handle 'facts' and research about our family...pretty lame, I might add.

I see your posts as attempts to raise your esteem as a Mall cop and quite frankly I think it stinks....It's just plain bad public display, and bad behavior on your part, Tim.

If you left it about research, I might have responded.....but to you this is not about research at all. It never was.

Have a nice life. And keep that Mall badge shiny! It's probably the most important status recognition you will ever have in this life.
Shasta

PS I am expecting a book review from you any day....just a hunch...that it will be as debauching as your comments on these forums...it's just your style, you can't help yourself, can you!