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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 25 May 2012 2:05 pm 
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Grand Master
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008 11:01 am
Posts: 1702
Shasta wrote:
Well you certainly have an excellent memory! Congratulations for that...mine is more like a sieve now..
Growing old takes great bravery. You'll get there just fine.


Speaking of remembering things......having these conversations with you all last week jolted some old wounds open again..things that kinda got buried because they are too painful to bring back up.....

First, on the surface it appears that I over-reacted when MCG went public, but when you know the background better, it may all start to make sense.

It happened on the very week or two that I had just completed a new application to National Geographic for my Biblical Genome Project...(I didn't call it the "DNA of God' Project yet...that came later). Thgis included a potential "Grail child" who lived in Kashmir...She was to be the 'cameo' of the Project...the reason for it all to happen in the first place. This had not been aneasy accomplishment since the death of her grandfather, Bashrat Shaheen, and threats to this family from fundamentalists.

This was my third attempt to gain recognition and support from Nat Geo, and I had assurances that they were keenly interested. It meant everything to me to get this right..I was planning to take the applications and idea back to their DC offices within a few weeks...that's why I crashed and took the news so hard when she rushed to New York ahead of my trip and got published......I was discussing this Grant and this trip on my forum, and the great time-consuming difficulty in getting the Grant applications done right. She knew that...she was reading my forum and copying things like crazy! There is no denying this because there were numerous witnesses who brought this to my attention, plus what she included in her published book(s).

Years of my work to pull this project together, all for nothing...all destroyed in few thoughtless moments to satisfy ego and greed......I had a major meltdown...I cannot count the tears and the the terrible sense of betrayal...not only for what it did to destroy the DNA Project....but for what it did to the family in Kashmir..I feared they would never trust me with such a project again...after the ridicule heaped on KMG....none of us wanted to face that among ourselves. I hope this helps in your understanding what really happened at the time..

I was an emotional basket case long after. I am too old to return to this now..and for me all hope is gone. It is over. It is what it is..I am not carrying grudges or anger against anyone...as I told you before TCP...no one can beat me up as much as I beat myself up...I am left with an overwhelming sense of having failed a lot of people..I dont blame anyone but myself.

Just a few months ago, I was asked to return to India and resume the Project...this even appeared on my Facebook page, posted by an attorney who was interested in helping...plus the Government of India and the Tourism Board of Kashmir have all expressed keen interest in the Project and my return to continue there..also, the Producer of the film, Yashendra, seems to show an interest in picking up the pieces and trying something new ...but that would be his project now, not mine.. I have to wait for some health issues to resolve, plus I didn't have enough funds left in the bank to go running around Inida, uncertain where to start or how much it would cost.....

I can only hope that someone else takes an interest and sees it through one day, but I doubt that it will be me now.

Now regarding TCP's request for info about the Baldwins and Godfreys and kings of the region during the First Crusade, I have been hounding relatives who maintain the ancestor site, also on Facebook.. to get a clarification. I did additional research into the whole region. Metz (of des Marets ) was actually the capitol city for an area that extended into 'Lower Lorraine'- Cambray-Walloon-Boullogne(Bollion)-Austrasia. This region is northeast of Paris.

To really confuse history further, sometimes the borders were changed, so Boullion was once in France but is now in Belgium...the castles for Godfrey de Boullion and Godfrey and Baldwin, lords des Marets, are still in the region and visited by family relatives. There are also sites online where you can see them.

Some were kings, some were knights and noblemen, but all were related, at the very least they were cousins...This came about because of the quirky French laws of inheritance..every son was entitled to break off an equal share of his father's estate and call it his own..and so from our common relative, (whomever that may have been) we have Godfrey of Boullion as King of Jerusalem, related to Godfrey des Marets and to Baldwin (of which many shared those names) knights and noblemen..all from exactly the same region. Metz was still considered the capitol at the time (if I recall correctly)..

My cousin Robert Demarest said this: " If the current line stands and I'm right with my other work, Godfrey and Baldwin are the brothers of Baldwin I Lord desMaret's wife, who was his cousin. That would make them roughly our 27th Great Uncles..."

Sorry, but this is the best I can do to this point. If I learn more, I will add to this..I never thought all this would ever come up again...In a way it's for the best....maybe helps to clear the air and start fresh.. I hope so.

_________________
Don't make the same mistakes twice. Say NO to reincarnation.


Last edited by Shasta on 25 May 2012 11:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 25 May 2012 3:23 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Joined: 31 May 2008 12:53 am
Posts: 8982
Location: Los Angeles
Shasta wrote:
Shasta wrote:
Well you certainly have an excellent memory! Congratulations for that...mine is more like a sieve now..
Growing old takes great bravery. You'll get there just fine.


Speaking of remembering things......having these conversations with you all last week jolted some old wounds open again..things that kinda got buried because they are too painful to bring back up.....

First, on the surface it appears that I over-reacted when MCG went public, but when you know the background better, it may all start to make sense.

It happened on the very week or two that I had just completed a new application to National Geographic for my Biblical Genome Project...(I didn't call it the "DNA of God' Project yet...that came later).This was my third attempt and I had assurances that they were keenly interested. It meant everything to me to get this right..I was planning to take the applications and idea back to their DC offices within a few weeks...that's why I crashed and took the news so hard when she rushed to New York ahead of my trip and got published......I was discussing this Grant and this trip on my forum, and the great time-consuming difficulty in getting the Grant applications done right. She knew that...she was reading my forum and copying things like crazy! There is no denying this because there were numerous witnesses who brought this to my attention, plus what she included in her published book(s).

Years of my work to pull this project together, all for nothing...all destroyed in few thoughtless moments to satisfy ego and greed......I had a major meltdown...I cannot count the tears and the the terrible sense of betrayal...not only for what it did to destroy the DNA Project....but for what it did to the family in Kashmir..I feared they would never trust me with such a project again...after the ridicule heaped on KMG....none of us wanted to face that among ourselves. I hope this helps in your understanding what really happened at the time..I was an emotional basket case long after. I am too old to return to this now..and for me all hope is gone. It is over. Just a few months ago, I was asked to return to India and resume the Project...this even appeared on Facebook from an attorney who was interested in helping...plus the Government of India and the Tourism Board of Kashmir have all expressed keen interest in the Project..and the Producer of the film, Yashendra, seems to show an interest in picking up the pieces and trying something new ...but that would be his project now, not mine.. I have to wait for some health issues to resolve, plus I didn't have enough funds left in the bank to go running around Inida, uncertain where to start or how much it would cost.....

I can only hope that someone else takes an interest and sees it through one day, but I doubt that it will be me now.

Now regarding TCP's request for info about the Baldwins and Godfreys and kings of the region during the First Crusade, I have been hounding relatives who maintain the ancestor site, also on Facebook.. to get a clarification. I did additional research into the whole region. Metz (of des Marets ) was actually the capitol city for an area that extended into 'Lower Lorraine'- Cambray-Walloon-Boullogne(Bollion)-Austrasia. This region is northeast of Paris.

To really confuse history further, sometimes the borders were changed, so Boullion was once in France but is now in Belgium...the castles for Godfrey de Boullion and Godfrey and Baldwin, lords des Marets, are still in the region and visited by family relatives. There are also sites online where you can see them.

Some were kings, some were knights and noblemen, but all were related, at the very least they were cousins...This came about because of the quirky French laws of inheritance..every son was entitled to break off an equal share of his father's estate and call it his own..and so from our common relative, (whomever that may have been) we have Godfrey of Boullion as King of Jerusalem, related to Godfrey des Marets and to Baldwin (of which many shared those names) knights and noblemen..all from exactly the same region. Metz was still considered the capitol at the time (if I recall correctly)..

My cousin Robert Demarest said this: " If the current line stands and I'm right with my other work, Godfrey and Baldwin are the brothers of Baldwin I Lord desMaret's wife, who was his cousin. That would make them roughly our 27th Great Uncles..."

Sorry, but this is the best I can do to this point. If I learn more, I will add to this..I never thought all this would ever come up again...In a way it's for the best....maybe helps to clear the air and start fresh.. I hope so.


Much to say in response, but I'm heading off for a camping trip shortly so it will have to wait until I'm back Monday evening.

In the meantime -

1) The des Marets family (yours, not all families using that appended toponym) was seated in the region of Calais. The surname means "of the swamps", it does not derive from Metz (named for the tribe of the Mettis, or Mediamatricis) which, by the way, is/was located in Upper Lorraine, nowhere near Calais (which was part of the County of Boulogne, not Bouillon). Godfrey was a scion of the House of Boulogne as the 2nd son of Eustache II, Count of Boulogne, and was Count (not Duke) of Bouillon as heir of his mother's brother Godfrey IV, Duke of Lower Lorraine. Note Upper and Lower Lorraine - separate states at this point in history. Looking at a map, Lower is upper (modern Belgium) and Upper is lower (eastern border between France and Germany).

2) Godfrey de Bouillon had two brothers - Eustache III, Count of Boulogne and Baldwin, King of Jerusalem. They had one known sister, Ida, wife of Hermann van Malsen-Cuyck, and thus they were not the brothers-in-law of Baldwin I des Marets. The wife of Baldwin I des Marets (and mother of his children) was Alice de Tyrel, daughter of Walter de Tyrel, a knight from Cambrai.

I'll look forward to your response in a few days.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 25 May 2012 3:31 pm 
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Thanks TCP...I'm passing your post on to family members...
I will post their reply when I have one...
Thank you for your help...Have a GREAT TRIP! All the best,
Shasta

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 25 May 2012 3:38 pm 
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TCP...This is from the British des Marets family, from where we shared a common origin; It appears online here:
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.demarest/285.2/mb.ashx

The word Marez has these variations:Marès or Marés,desmarets, demorree, and about 50 more variations..
Martz France is about 25 miles north of Paris..Region Nord-Pas-de-Calais..Department Nord...Arrondissement Cambrai

Boullion was on the border with France...the border shifted several times and it is now in Belgium..
"In the Middle Ages Bouillon was a lordship within the Duchy of Lower Lorraine" thus putting it squarely in the same provence as Martz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouillon

I have passed your post on and waiting a reply from one of the US family members who is up on the current research.
Many kind thanks for all your help.

"EARLY GENEALOGICAL RECORDS

The earliest records of the desMarets family go back to about the sixth century and it is understood that these records were compiled by Louis the XIV of France to authenticate the lines of the nobility of France and are in Paris. The records herein printed, were developed originally by Jacques Joseph de Maretz, representing the Roman Catholic, South Netherland branch, and by Louis Trip de Marez representing the Protestant, North Netherland branch, in 1732. The family is recorded as having sprung from the house of the barons of Bousis, peers at Cambray, bearing in azure a cross argent.

I. Jean, Lord of Bousis, lived in the first half of the 11th Century married a sister of Eustace, Lord of Picquiguy, in Picardy, and had a son Baldwin, who became the first Lord of Marets, a fief comprising the town and vicinity of Marets, near Cambray."

II. Baldwin I, Lord des Marets, is mentioned among the nobles who took part in the Tournament of Anchin, in 1096, the original call-roll of which has been preserved. This tournament was preparatory to the First Crusade, and Baldwin took part in this crusade. His wife was Alice de Tyrel, sister of Allard de Tyrel, Lord of Poix , in the Land of Cambray, living at Cambray .

The participation of Baldwin (I) des Marets in the First Crusade can be proven historically. His name appears enrolled among the participants in the Tournament of Anchin, in 1096. Anchin was a Convent situated on a small island in the river Scarpe. Here Anselllm, Duke of Ribemont and Valenciennes, called together the chief nobles of his vicinity for a brilliant tournament, shortly after Peter of Aamiens had preached the crusade. All participants in the tournament took solemn oath that they would go on the crusade. The document of this oath still exists. Its text has been published in the original Latin, together with a French translation, in : 1'Histoire Genealogique de la Maison de Neufville, by A. C. de Neufville, 1859. The French text can also be found in: Dutilhoeul's "Petites Histoires de Flandres et d'Artois."

The deeds in Palestine of further members of the des Marets family of Cambray and Cambresis have been described by William, Archbishop of Tyre, in Phoenicia, who lived in the time of the 2nd Crusade and who was an eyewitness to many happenings, in his: "Historia Belli Sacri a Principibus Christianis in Palestine et in Oriente Gesti."

This work, after having existed in manuscript for many generations, was finally printed for the first time at Basel in 1549, and again, its Latin text accompanied by a French translation in 1844, by the "Academie des Inscriptions." A copy of this beautiful book is in the Royal Library at The Hague, Holland. It gives details about Baldwin II, des Marets, and his brother, Reginald, son-in-law of Josselin de Courtenay, Count of Edessa.

In Chapter XIV it is described how Baldwin des Marets in a nightly expedition accompanied Joselin with his horsemen, and how they crossed the river before Edessa. After the re-capture of Edessa by the Christian army, Baldwin des Marets was in command of the forces which operated in Northern Palestine, on the western borders of the county of Edessa and the northern portions of the County of Antioch, mainly for the protection of the road used by the Crusaders on their way to Jerusalem. A station on that road was named "Maresia," for the commander. Maresia, however, was never a separate county of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Formerly the name of the place had been "Germanica Caesarea," so named for Caesar Germanicus. In the mouth of the Turks, "Maresia" has become "Marash".

III. Baldwin II, Lord des Marets, received for his bravery in the Holy Land from the King of Jerusalem, in fief the city of "Rhosas," in Palestine which fact according to Lyle Carpentier's named genealogy caused his ancestral Arms to be augmented with four roses, or. These completed Arms, at least the shield , seem to have occurred on a medal, which is mentioned in the Will of Baldwin's great-grandson, Baldwin des Marets, Lord of Sorick. (The original Will is still in possession of the descendants of Jean des Marets (1518-1604), the de Marez-Oyens family at Amsterdam. It had in 1656 still the seven original seals, of which at present only one is left intact.)

Le Carpentier , in his work, "Histoire de Cambray," quotes the work of William, Archbishop of Tyre, folios 861, 896 and 900, so as to prove that this Baldwin des Marets, together with the Count of Edessa, Josselin de Courtenaay, re-occupied the City of Edessa in 1142, taking it from Sultan Noradin, and that Baldwin fell against the Turks in 1145.

Baldwin's younger brother, Reginald des Marets, is also said to have gained possessions in Palestine, the fief named "Maresia" after his hometown of Marez. This Reginald des Marets married a daughter of the Count of Edessa. His widow, after he had died without issue, remarried with Almaaarick, Count of Joppe, who in 1162 became King of Jerusalem. The above-named Will mentions Reginald's sword, which was given to him by his father-in-law, the Count of Edessa.

Baldwin II, Lord des Marets, married with the daughter of Eustace Grener, Constable of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, Lord of Sydon and of Caesarea, in the Holy Land. Their sons follow."

IV. Baldwin III, Lord des Marets, was the youngest son of Baldwin II and his wife,- - - - - Grener. After his two elder brothers had fallen in battle against the Turks, and after all his possessions in Palestine had fallen in hands of these "infidels," he returned to Cambresis, the land of his fathers. Some of his ancestral lands there he bequested to the Abbey of Saint Aubert, at Cambray. His wife was Melisande de Beauvoise. They had three sons.

1. Baldwin (IV), who follows below,

2. Goswin, who died in Palestine, and

3. (?) , whose direct line died out in the third generation

V. Baldwin IV, Lord des Marets, inherited his father's possessions in the Land of Cambray. In 1233 he gave these lands to the Abbey of Vaucelles and went to Palestine. There he fell in the battle of Ascalon, in 1239. He had married Gillette de Jauche, daughter of Simon de Jauche, Governor of Cambray. They had the following sons:

1. Baldwin, who follows below,

2. Hugo, who still possessed his great-uncle Reginald’s sword,

3. Jean, who became bailiff of Creveceur.
(The Act of Indemnity by which this last named Jean des Marets relinquished his rights to his paternal estate, leaving them to his eldest brother, Baldwin, is dated July 31, 1287. The original is with other family papers still in possession of the de Marez-Oyens family at Amsterdam, descendants of Jean des Marets (1518-1604).

"VI. Baldwin V, Lord des Marets, knight, was Lord of Sorick, Maretz, Vilers, Chesneaux, Hurtebise and Flechin. His will has been mentioned above. His wife was Ermegarde de Rambures, whose mother was of the house of Walincourt. They had five sons, three of whom are known:

1. William, who follow below,

2. Godwin, who’s direct male line died out in the 4th generation.

3. Hugo, who seems to have become the ancestor of the des Marez branch of Arras, bearing five, stead of four roses.

"VII. William des Marets, 6th Lord of Marets, Lord of Loges and Cheneaux, is mentioned, according to Le Carpentier, in Charters of the years 1293, 1331, and 1335, respectively to be found in the archives of the Abbey of Saint Aubert, at Cambray, at Walincourt, and at Verger Abbey.

His wife was Guiote de Hames, daughter of Walter de Hames, who in 1272 was bailiff of Courtenay, (Of this family came the well-known Nicolas de Hames, herald of the Golden Fleece, a Protestant in the eventful days of the beginning of the rebellion of the Netherlands against the tyrant Phillip II).

In 1293 William des Marets sold much of his land located near the Abbey of Saint Aubert. Of his marriage two children are known:

1. Baldwin, who follows below, and a daughter,

2. (?), who became the wife of Wigbold of Esquencourt.

VIII. Baldwin VI, 7th Lord des Marets, knight, Lord of Hurtebise, of half-Flehan, and of Eth, in Henault.

He married Agnes de Forest, daughter of Herbert de Forest. He died in the year 1331, and his widow in 1335, as appears from the above-mentioned Charters, in which also William, his father, is named.

This couple had five sons and two daughters. Of the daughters, the eldest became a nun. The youngest married with Jean de Lamelin, Lord of Fasnieres, in Henault. The sons were:

1. Baldwin, who follows below.

2. Jacques, Lord of Camerin, in Aartois,

3. Jean, Lord of Autrep,

4. William, Lord of Bossu, in Picardy, and of Fleurbay,

5. Pierre, who settled in Flanders, and whose direct line died out in the second generation.

The name Jacques des Marets, Lord of Camerin, changed his ancestral Arms, adding to it a chief azure charged with three roses, or. His brother, Jean des Marets, Lord of Autrep, also changed his Arms in manners following: quartered: in 1 and 4, in azure a cross argent; and 2 and 3, in azure four roses, or.

IX. Baldwin VII, 8th Lord des Marets, Lord of Hurtebise. His tomb is in the Church of Saint Andrews, at Catteau Cambresis.

He had for wife Jacqueline de Ranchicourt, lady of Remes, and of la Vacquerie. They had two sons:

1. Jean, who married a daughter of Walter (VI) of Enghien, and who left no issue. This Jean des Marets died of grief upon the news of the death of his friend, Sohier, Count of Brienne, second Duke of Athens, who had been beheaded at Quesnoy at the command of Albrecht of Bavaria, Count of Henault and of Holland, in 1366.

2. Baldwin, who follows below.

X. Baldwin VIII, 9th Lord des Marets, Lord of Eth and Hurtebise, by inheritage from his father, and Lord of Remes and la Vacquerie, by inheritage from his mother, became by purchase Lord of Farbus, in Artois.

He married Emma de Neuville, lady of Carnin, in Artois. He died at Cambray, in 1395, leaving one daughter and two sons:

1. Baldwin, who married and had only two daughters. His inherited lands therefore after his death were sold or divided.

2. Hugo, who follows below.

XI. Hugo, 10th Lord des Marets, Lord of Farbus, died in 1429.

His wife was Guillemette de Solomnes, of whom he had eleven children. Several of these children, males as well as females, entered ecclesiastical orders, and died unmarried. Two of his sons became founders of branches, namely:

1. Baldwin. He was the great-grandfather of Jean des Marets, who married Martha de Bernicourt, which last-named couple by the genealogists Le Vaillant and the Atteveld and Jacques des Marets (born 1519). (See above).

2. Reginald, who follows below.

XII. Reginald des Marets, Esquire, Doctor of Laws, was a magistrate at Cambray. He marries Agnes de la Saulx, of whom three sons:
1. Jean des Marets, who follows below,

2. Pierre des Marets, who married Agnes Shamart, of whom he had seven children, and numerous posterity,

3. Jacques des Marets, who was Canon of Saint Gery, at Cambray, and who died about A.D. 1500.

XIII. Jean des Marets, Esquire, Doctor of Laws, was a magistrate at Cambray. He married four times: Johanna Rosel, Marie de Franqueville, Catharine Gerardel and Aldegonde de l'Aoust. By his four marriages he had thirteen children; by Catharine Gerardel he had Jacques, born 1480-1500

(I believe at this point ...we still shared these common ancestors)...



XIV. Jacques des Marets, Sr., wife's name not found, had two sons: Jean born c. 1518 and Jacques born c. 1519.

XV. Jacques des Marets, founder of the Demares family in England, was born in the year 1519, and the fact that he was a brother of Jean des Marets, born 1518, founder of the Marees or de Marez family in Holland, has never been doubted. He fled during the religious and political persecutions by the Inquisition and the House of Hapsburg in the Netherlands with his family to Norwich, in England. This probably occurred in 1567. He and his family belonged to the Walloon Reformed Church at Norwich.

Jacques des Marets died at Norwich in 1604, the same year when his brother Jean died at Amsterdam. His wife was Antoinette Suceur.

In a power-of-attorney issued by his widow and heirs in 1604, he is called as having died at the age of eighty-five. This document was in 1732 in hands of Jacques Joseph de Marez se Sancourt, in the Land of Cambray.

From the above named document it appears that Jacques des Marets, of Norwich, England, and his wife, Antoinette Suceur, had three sons, namely: Francois, Pierre (who died before his father) and Jean, of whom Francois de Marets and Jean de Marets with their families were living at Norwich in 1604.

An excellent account of "The Walloons and Their Church at Norwich" is furnished by the late vice-president of the Huguenot Society of London, W. J.C. Noens (1888).

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 25 May 2012 7:57 pm 
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High King

Joined: 26 Oct 2006 9:11 pm
Posts: 2775
Location: Livingston, Scotland.
TCP wrote:
Pilrig wrote:
My g-g grandad, an Ayrshireman in the manner of Robert Burns :wink:. He was a widower with two kids, met my g-g grandmother got her pregnant then married another woman later in the year..and she had a kid within a year of marriage...must be something in the Ayrshire water.


Run-off from the Johnnie Walker distilleries, no doubt. I've got people on my grandmother's side who came from Ayrshire, so no judgment here!

(Though I prefer Tullamore Dew from t'other side o' the Moyle...)

TCP



Alas Johnnie Walker is no longer from Ayrshire http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/gla ... 246010.stm


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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 25 May 2012 9:15 pm 
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Robert Demarest said: "Of the Marsh" is one thought as to the origin of the name. The other is "Of Marets", locational in nature. The second is the most widely accepted."

http://www.facebook.com/groups/43704727468/10150836048362469/?comment_id=10150837242297469&notif_t=group_comment
Upper and Lower Lorraine were indeed the same place.
Quote:
In 959 King Henry's son Duke Bruno the Great divided Lotharingia into two duchies: Lower and Upper Lorraine (or Lower and Upper Lotharingia) and granted Count Godfrey I of Mons (Hainaut) the title of a Duke of Lower Lorraine. Godfrey's lands were to the north (lower down the Rhine river system), while Upper Lorraine was to the south (further up the river system). Both duchies formed the western part of the Holy Roman Empire established by Bruno's elder brother Emperor Otto I in 962.
Both Lotharingian duchies took very separate paths thereafter.

Metz is seen on the map below. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Lorraine
Attachment:
Lotharingia.png
Lotharingia.png [ 105.52 KiB | Viewed 598 times ]

Contents

1 Kings of Lotharingia
2 Dukes of Lorraine
3 Dukes of Lower Lorraine
3.1 Matfriding dynasty
3.2 Carolingian dynasty
3.3 House of Ardennes–Verdun
3.4 House of Luxembourg
3.5 House of Ardennes–Verdun
3.6 Salian dynasty
3.7 House of Boulogne (Ardennes–Bouillon)
3.8 House of Limburg
3.9 House of Leuven
3.10 House of Limburg
3.11 House of Leuven
4 Dukes of Upper Lorraine
4.1 House of Ardennes-Bar
4.2 House of Ardennes-Verdun
4.3 House of Metz (Ardennes-Metz)
4.4 House of Anjou
4.5 House of Lorraine
4.6 House of Leszczyński
Please note at 3.7 that House of Bologne and of Bouillon are the same. All originated from the
Dukes of Lower Lorraine.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Lorraine

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 26 May 2012 12:03 pm 
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"Of the Marsh" indeed.... "Du Marais"


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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 26 May 2012 12:44 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
"Of the Marsh" indeed.... "Du Marais"


I am inclined toward 'of the marsh' because the region is famous for many rivers and streams that flow through, making marshy land famous for lilies that grew in such abundance that they were stylized into fleur-de-lis for Coats of Arms as a reminder of 'home'...and today this fleur-de-lis is still symbol of French monarchy and one of the best recognized designs in the world...it may have existed before the French adopted it....but not with the same connotations.

Attachment:
flur de lis1.jpg
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From the genealogy I posted above, "2. Hugo, who still possessed his great-uncle Reginald’s sword," (originally Godfrey's sword from the First Crusades) This sword hangs in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. Mark Twain wrote about it in 'A Tramp Abroad' circa 1888, after seeing it in Jerusalem, and that's how I learned where the sword was. ...I wanted to see it and asked several priests where it was...finally someone led me to a private area of the Church, where it is fastened on a wall very high up..We pulled a table underneath and I climbed on the table to take a photo...Since then several other family members have got to see it and have posted pictures. It is nailed to the wall inside its scabbard, so it is now impossible to see the actual sword..there is a sign board to the left describing its history..I am hoping that one day the guardians can be persuaded to remove it from its scabbard to allow modern photos of the blade...I am sure it is probably engraved with family names, or a tamga, or something to identify it..
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The castle of Godfrey de Boullion, still a place of pilgrimage for family members..
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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 2:37 pm 
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Shasta wrote:

I am inclined toward 'of the marsh' because the region is famous for many rivers and streams that flow through, making marshy land famous for lilies that grew in such abundance that they were stylized into fleur-de-lis for Coats of Arms as a reminder of 'home'...and today this fleur-de-lis is still symbol of French monarchy and one of the best recognized designs in the world...it may have existed before the French adopted it....but not with the same connotations.


The fleur de lis is a depiction of a golden flame IMHO, not a flower…..same as the Oriflamme (from Latin aurea flamma, "golden flame"), the enigmatic design did indeed exist long before the French monarchy adopted it although its because of them it has become a famous symbol.

I cant imagine battle hardened warriors from any era adopting a flower as a symbol.


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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 2:52 pm 
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Quote:
I cant imagine battle hardened warriors from any era adopting a flower as a symbol.

An iconic photo from Vietnam protestors :-
Image
And as Tingra says, it is unlikely the flower would be used as a symbol for violence and war. Shasta, have a look at IBJ's and Anne Lombard-Jourdan's research on the Fleur-de-lis.
http://isaacbenjacob.com/
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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 3:38 pm 
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I looked over Isaac Ben Jacob's website (which, by the way, I found intriguing and will return to read at leisure) at first glance I did not see any articles relating to the fluer de lys...
However, the exact translation of fleur de lys IS 'Lily flower' ....'flame' would be 'flamme' in French..The Zoroastrians were known to the Greeks, and indeed to all people of the ancient world, and as 'fire worshippers' they had symbols for their sacred fires, but none comes close to resembling the fleur de lys. In fact, the upward pointing triangle has usually been the alchemical symbol for fire since ancient times. It is one of the four alchemical elements. The symbol is derived from the medieval magical Seal of Solomon.
I believe there is no mistake. The fleur de lys means the lily flower...nothing else.

From this website (one among hundreds on this topic) http://www.fleurdelis.com/fleur.htm we get the following:
Quote:
Legend
The English translation of "fleur-de-lis" (sometimes spelled "fleur-de-lys") is "flower of the lily." This symbol, depicting a stylized lily or lotus flower, has many meanings. Traditionally, it has been used to represent French royalty, and in that sense it is said to signify perfection, light, and life. Legend has it that an angel presented Clovis, the Merovingian king of the Franks, with a golden lily as a symbol of his purification upon his conversion to Christianity. Others claim that Clovis adopted the symbol when waterlilies showed him how to safely cross a river and thus succeed in battle. {Shasta's note: I have read elsewhere about how the lilies reminded him of home...and that is where he would have learned 'where to cross safely' through marshy lands}

Heraldry
In the twelfth century, either King Louis VI or King Louis VII (sources disagree) became the first French monarch to use the fleur-de-lis on his shield. English kings later used the symbol on their coats of arms to emphasize their claims to the throne of France. In the 14th century, the fleur-de-lis was often incorporated into the family insignia that was sewn on the knight's surcoat, which was worn over their coat of mail, thus the term, "coat of arms." The original purpose of identification in battle developed into a system of social status designations after 1483 when King Edmund IV established the Heralds' College to supervise the granting of armor insignia.


And where would we be without seeing Wikipedia's comments about fleur de lis!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleur-de-lis

The French Royal Standard

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 3:54 pm 
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Quote:

I cant imagine battle hardened warriors from any era adopting a flower as a symbol.


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Tingra, PLease tell me the approximate dates of these coins and I will tell you what some of those symbols represent...If one of these coins iis from the era of Constantine, who is usually represented by the Chi Rho (an ancient Egyptian symbol in use long before Christianity) during his era, the fleur de lys was already a recognized symbol of the lily and used to represent certain regions or homelands that were marshy....the symbol was instantly understood by all. No errors there.

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 7:28 pm 
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Shasta wrote:
I believe there is no mistake. The fleur de lys means the lily flower...nothing else.


Well…Francois Velde and Michel Pastoureau would be proud of that statement, if they say it’s a stylized flower then a flower it must be right? :D Not a lilly tho.

Here is FVs website, the one usually consulted for this topic, a lot of personal opinions and hardly any discussion on where or how the phrase Fleur de lys or Lis originated……why, where, when and by whom it became known as the fleur de lys/lis is the important aspect in my opinion.

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/fdl.htm

The first clear-cut use of the word "fleur de lis" in its heraldic acception is in 1225 in Durmart le Gallois, although Victor Gay (Glossaire Archéologique du Moyen-Âge, vol. 1, Paris, 1887) claims that the word is used in an ordnance of Louis VII (1137-1180), without giving any reference.

Durmart le Galois (also spelled Gallois , more briefly a Roman of Durmart ) is an Old French romance , dated to the first half of the 13th Century (probably 1220s or 1230s).

The text consists of about 9,000 verses of eight syllables. The roman concerns the adventures of Durmart, son of the king of Gaul and of Andelise, daughter of the king of Denmark, who was the most accomplished knight of his time.

http://archive.org/stream/liromansdedur ... 8/mode/2up

of course there is also this.....

The most probable explanation of the origin of the fleur-de-lis as a device of the Kings of France is that put forth by M. Rey, which has received the approval of Mr Planche, "that the fleur de lys, or flower de luce was merely a rebus signifying fleur de Louis." Up to the time of Louis VII the kings of that name (identical with Clovis) called themselves, and signed themselves, Loi"s or Loys. Even after the name had settled into its present form, Loys was still the signature of the kings of France up to the time of Louis XIII (1610-43). Loys, or Louis VII received from his father the surname Florus.

And this......Chretien de troyes, Eric and Enide……Plus ot que n’est la flor de lis
http://aprendeenlinea.udea.edu.co/revis ... /1256/4588

Shasta wrote:
If one of these coins iis from the era of Constantine, who is usually represented by the Chi Rho (an ancient Egyptian symbol in use long before Christianity) during his era, the fleur de lys was already a recognized symbol of the lily and used to represent certain regions or homelands that were marshy....the symbol was instantly understood by all. No errors there.


Yes those are Constantine coins, i am interested to know how you conclude that the Fleur de lys symbol was used by Constantine to represent the lily and marshy homelands or regions.


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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 8:23 pm 
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Dear Tingra, Thank you for that interesting information! However, the use of the fleur de lys as a flower associated with roylaty was already in use as far back as Mesopotamia..there would be no reason for any Clovis or Louie to think they could change the meaning of 'lily' to 'Louie".....
Quote:
The design can be found in many places long before heraldic times, as far back as Mesopotamia. It is essentially a stylized flower, and served as a decorative element and became associated over time with royalty, especially in the High Middle Ages.
As a heraldic charge, it dates from the 12th c. It is first adopted as a semis on a field by the French king Philippe II (1180-1214) with certainty, perhaps already by his father Louis VII (1137-80). At a minimum, the arms "azure, a semis of fleur-de-lis or" are associated with French kings from 1200.
The fleur-de-lys, as emblem (as opposed to heraldic charge) appears on coins and seals from the 10th c. at least. Typically, it forms the end of a scepter, or decorates the rim of a crown, or is held, over-sized, by the king along with a scepter. So there is, by the 11th-12th c., a strong association with royal sovereignty. In fact, coins of the Emperor Frederic I show him holding such a scepter. Moreover, supposing that it was already called a fleur-de-lys at the time, the lilly flower had strong religious connotations, especially with the Virgin Mary, and later (in the 14th c.) with the Trinity.
what it is, or initially was, is hotly debated. I dismiss all non-floral origins as fanciful. It is a stylized flower, but which flower? It looks more like an iris than a lilly. Moreover, lillies are never yellow in the wild, whereas some irises are. Could there have been confusion between the two flowers? The word "lis" appears in French in 1150, whereas the word "iris" designates the flower in the 13th c. The term "fleur de lis" in the heraldic sense is attested in 1225. A confusion seems implausible.
However, a hypothesis ventured in the 17th c. sounds very plausible to me. One species of wild iris, the Iris pseudacorus, yellow flag in English, is yellow and grows in marshes (cf. the azure field, for water). Its name in German is Lieschblume (also gelbe Schwertlilie), but Liesch was also spelled Lies and Leys in the Middle Ages. It is easy to imagine that, in Northern France, the Lieschblume would have been called "fleur-de-lis." This would explain the name and the formal origin of the design, as a stylized yellow flag. There is a fanciful legend about Clovis which links the yellow flag explicitly with the French coat of arms.
Here is a loose translation from translation Michel Pastoureau: Traité d'Héraldique, Paris, 1979.

"The use for ornamental or symbolic purposes of the stylised flower usually called fleur de lis is common to all eras and all civilisations. It is an essentially graphic theme found on Mesopotamian cylinders, Egyptian bas-reliefs, Mycenean potteries, Sassanid textiles, Gaulish coins, Mameluk coins, Indonesian clothes, Japanese emblems and Dogon totems. The many writers who have discussed the topic agree that it has little to do graphically with the lily, but disagree on whether it derives from the iris, the broom, the lotus or the furze, or whether it represents a trident, an arrowhead, a double axe, or even a dove or a pigeon. It is in our opinion a problem of little importance. The essential point is that it is a very stylised figure, probably a flower, that has been used as an ornament or an emblem by almost all civilisations of the old and new worlds.

The oldest known examples of fleur-de-lis similar to those used in the Medieval Western world and in modern times can be found on assyrian bas-reliefs from the 3d millenium BC. It is found on tiaras, necklaces, scepters, and seems already to play the role of royal attribute. Those found a little later in Crete, India and Egypt probably have a similar meaning. In numismatics, we find the fleur-de-lis on a few Greek coins and on several Roman coins from the Republic (mark of monetary magistrates) or the Empire (attribute of Hope) and especially on Gaulish coins. [The book shows three coins: a Gaulish coin (1st c. AD), a Mameluk coin (1390) and a coin of Louis VI of France (1110-30), all displaying an unmistakable fleur-de-lis (at least the upper-half of one, and a sort of triangle in the lower-half).] Whereas, in Greek and Roman coins, it is a fleuron of variable shape, in the Celtic case it is a true heraldic fleur-de-lis as it reappears in the 13th c.

It remains to know why the king of France adopted the fleur-de-lys as an emblem when all other sovereigns of Europe chose animals. The reason seems twofold: on the one hand this flower had always retained its role as attribute of sovereignty: it is in this capacity that it appears on several royal Carolingian and Ottonian attributes, on the scepter of Capetian kings since Robert (996-1031), on the reverse of Louis VI coins (early 12th c) and even on coins of Lothaire (954-986). On the other hand, the flower acquired a strong religious meaning, either Christic or Marial...

The coins of Louis VI and Louis VII are the earliest on which the fleur-de-lys appears. But it also appears at that time on the coins of Florence (a city which wad the mint of many European sovereigns, and whence the name florin is derived). M. Rey, in view of these facts, inquires: "Can we not say then, that the coincidence of the surname Florus with the name of Loys or lis, of that of Florence with that of fleur de lis, of all these names and surnames, gave rise to the formation of the name of our illustrious emblem?"

Possible Germanic origin:
...Lieschblume. As it turns out, according to the Brockhaus Encyclopedia, the word Liesch (also found as Leesch and Lees) designates a number of plants of the reed family, and also reed-shaped plants, like (among others) the gelbe Schwertlilie. Now Lilie is lilly, Schwertlilie is iris, and gelbe Schwertlilie (yellow iris literally) is the Iris Pseudacorus, the native wild iris of Europe. In Grimm's Deutsches Wörterbuch (Leipzig, 1885, vol. 7), liesch is said to have appeared in many forms in the Middle Ages and in dialects: lisch, lüsch, lies, liesz, liesze, lieyes, leys (the last two in "niederrheinisch", Lower-Rhine dialect I presume). Also, Grimm translate Lieschblume as "flos iridis, flos gladioli".

So Lieschblume is iris flower, and the Liesch is one of the names of the yellow flag, I. pseudacorus. Moerover, Liesch was variously written as Lees, Lies, Liesz, Leys, Lieyes. That's enough to let me believe that, in pre-heraldic times (say 10th-11th c.) a confusion could have arisen in the North of France between Lieschblume, translated as fleur-de-lis and the iris flower.

Other interesting details:

according to Brockhaus, the lilium of Old Testament is none other than the Iris pseudacorus.
the Iris pseudacorus, as the lilly, was an emblem of Mary, and Brockhaus cites Dürer and Hugo van der Goes.
another name for the yellow flag in French is "flambe" or (in some dialects) "flamme". The word comes from flamma or flammula. There is a 14th c. citation in Godefroy: "Yreos est flambe qui a la fleur blanche" (H. de Mandeville). Littré says: "Flambe: nom donné à l'iris Germanica et à l'iris des marais (iris pseudacorus), dite aussi flamme dans quelques provinces." (name given to i. Germanica [which is blue] and to the yellow flag, also called Flamme in some provinces.)


The above are exceprts from this website, where the full discussion can be read: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/fdl.htm


I am staying with the 'flower' as the original and correct explanation, but as you see, we can each draw our own inferences from the scraps of history left to us....no one is completely right, or completely wrong in this context...... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 8:34 pm 
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Dear Tingra....you said:
Quote:
Yes those are Constantine coins, i am interested to know how you conclude that the Fleur de lys symbol was used by Constantine to represent the lily and marshy homelands or regions.


I will retract my former statement and refraze it...Constantine may have used the lily in any one of the older contexts listed in my post above, whether marshlands or to represent Christ or Mother Mary...or simply as a decorative element to say "see how pretty I am!"..

no need to repeat every possibility what was going on in his mind... numerous web sites that explore this in depth and say pretty much the same things over and over..which is what we could end up doing here..

Rulers and royalty had already adopted the flower/lily symbol for reasons other than an alliance with Clovis/Louis...again, we will never really know...your guess and your research is as good as my sources...shall we shake on it and raise a glass to Louie? :)
All the best, Shasta
A link to a web site (one of many) with pictures of Constantine coins, their symbols and meanings..http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/symbols/

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 8:51 pm 
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Shasta wrote:
I am staying with the 'flower' as the original and correct explanation.... :D


most people do :lol: like i said, they get as far as reading what you have copied onto here and dont bother delving any deeper.....each to there own i suppose.

i dont agree it is the correct explanation, the historical time frame surrounding the adoption of the name and symbol is vast and any in depth study of the period should at least warrant further investigation to any individual specifically interested in the importance of this and other symbols.


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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 9:10 pm 
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Dear Tingra.......I do not want to do an in-depth study of the fleur de lys.. :(

I barely have enough hours to do an in depth study of Safiyah and Kinanah, the biography I am writing about the Battle of Kyhber....
Further, the information is not totally relevant to my previous book....if we change the outcome of the fleur de lys, that would have no impact whatsoever on the topic and purpose of my book.......as much as I want to be accurate, when we are faced with so many disputed "facts"....there is really no choice but to take a stand, a POV, and then quickly move on...which is what I did..if anyone questions those conclusions, as you did, then a brief explanation, and a few examples..indicating that historians do not agree should suffice...

I am always delighted to see what new research you post....if you have the time and the interest, then I respect you and support you..
Best,,Shasta

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 9:55 pm 
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Shasta wrote:

I will retract my former statement and refraze it...Constantine may have used the lily in any one of the older contexts listed in my post above, whether marshlands or to represent Christ or Mother Mary...or simply as a decorative element to say "see how pretty I am!"..

no need to repeat every possibility what was going on in his mind... numerous web sites that explore this in depth and say pretty much the same things over and over..which is what we could end up doing here..


What web pages? I have never come across any that describe those coins in that way and believe me I have studied a lot of them. You cant make sweeping statements in huge letters ending with… “No errors there” and expect no come back, or state that other opinions are the correct one without knowing at least a little bit about the subject you are pontificating about.

I don’t profess to be an expert on this in any way shape or form, but I have studied these things for a long time Shasta, there are various explanations for the fleur de lis symbol depicted on the helmet of Constantine, the nail (Helena) is one of them and if you had even done a cursory search you would have known that.

Shasta wrote:
Dear Tingra.......I do not want to do an in-depth study of the fleur de lys.. :(


i only replied to put the record straight :D

goodnight :D


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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 10:06 pm 
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tingra wrote:
I cant imagine battle hardened warriors from any era adopting a flower as a symbol.


Wars of the Roses? :wink:

Speaking of Angevins, also worth mentioning in passing their given name, albeit retrospectively, of Plantagenets, from planta genista, after the sprig of common broom worn in the hat of Geoffrey of Anjou (father of Henry II).

Quote:
The name Plantagenet has twelfth-century origins as a nickname Plantegenest or Plante Genest of Geoffrey V of Anjou derived from the name of a shrub, the common broom, known in Latin as the Planta genista. It is claimed the nickname arose because Geoffrey of Anjou wore a sprig of the common broom in his hat. The significance has been said to relate to its golden flower and contemporary belief in its vegetative soul. Since the 15th century, Plantagenet has been applied retrospectively as a surname for the descendants of Geoffrey of Anjou. There is barely any contemporary evidence for the name before the mid fifteenth century, and the house itself used no surname until the legitimist claimant Richard Plantagenet, Duke of York, father of both Edward IV and Richard III, assumed the name about 1448.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Plantagenet

Common Broom:
Image

I would think flowers and plants must occur quite often in heraldry, although I'd agree that as symbols in their own right they don't really evoke the battlefield. But interesting how so many countries include some kind of plant, somewhere in their symbology - the rose, the thistle, the leek and the shamrock in our own islands, for example.

Apologies for interrupting the fleur de lys conversation, I just found the flower comment interesting when I saw it.


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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 10:23 pm 
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Dear Tingra...

I have the greatest respect for your years of study of these subjects.....heraldry and coins...they are complex fields and the experts rarely agree. I consulted some experts about coins..one in particular, Joe Cribbs, (gosh I hate to drop names, but he was credited in my book) was very helpful. He headed the Numismatics department at the British Museum...he was a specialist in Central Asian coins of Christ's era....I had such high hopes that he could set me straight about some of the old coins from India....however, in the end he was at a loss to explain many things that India scholars were claiming as "fact"....no one agreed.

It was long, time consuming, and very frustrating because I so wanted to make some accurate statements in my book..several of these old coins acknowledged 'Soter Mega' the solar king sometimes associated with Issa. That would be Jesus!

But it was impossible, especially because Cribbs apparently doesn't believe in the theory that Jesus might have survived crucifixion. And so in this situation, no one will look further at any "evidence" that Jesus may indeed have survived and was recognized as a king. The scholars in India are much more open to these ideas...Thus there are huge disagreements.. half the footnotes in my book are taken up with explaining these differences...It's the same with the fleur de lys background...how much of my book should I take up to explain these discrepancies too? Especially if this is not as relevant as the coin issues to my book..?

I did post links to some web sites that mentioned theories about Mother Mary.Christ, and other explanations for use of the fleur de lys...If you look at the posts above, you can follow those links until you find the articles I quoted.

I admire your research abilities! You have my admiration and respect.

All the best,

Shasta

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 10:28 pm 
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Dear Richard,,,

as I tried to explain to Tingra...every 'expert' has reached conclusions that they will defend to the death...
Whether or not it agrees with their peers is not important...their peers have different conclusions.. I learn a lot from the research of others..I enjoy the info that Tingra shared...and the info that you just shared above....

So much to learn! My little blonde brain trying to absorb it alll.....I am woefully inadequate.. :cry: Tingra would do best to take me up on the offer to share a toast of bubbly to old Louie, and you are invited too Richard! ....whatever Louie's choices or reasons for fleur de lys, , may he rest in peace and laugh with us all!

Warmest best,

Sue

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 11:10 pm 
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Hi Sue, maybe it should be Clovis who deserves a toast ?
Quote:
By the 12th century the fleur-de-lis had become the heraldic emblem of the Capetian kings of France, whose court propaganda traced the first adoption of the fleur-de-lis to the conversion of the Frankish King Clovis I in 493. The story takes various forms, many of which relate to Clovis' conversion, and support the claim of the anointed Kings of France that their authority came directly from God, without the mediation of either the Emperor or the Pope.
Anne Lombard-Jourdan traces the fleur-de-lis to a transformation of the Merovingian crista, a symbol evoking the rising sun (word derived from crescere, "to grow", alluding to the newborn Sun) represented on their coinage, which had the form of a Greek cross with the horizontals curved upwards on either side. Though Lombard-Jourdan associates the emblem with a Romano-Gallic sanctuary Christianized as the Basilica of Saint-Denis in a seamless continuity, most scholars would hesitate to pursue the sign so far.
Some versions of the legend enhance the mystique of royalty by describing a vial of oil sent from heaven to anoint and sanctify Clovis at his coronation, perhaps brought by a dove to Saint Remigius. Another variation says a lily appeared at Clovis' baptismal ceremony as a gift of blessing from an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is often associated with the flower.
Clovis' Burgundian wife, Clotilde, later to be Saint Clothilda, is usually significant in these stories. As well as her part in encouraging her husband to become a Christian, her presence helps emphasise the importance of Burgundy's support for the monarch.
A story which places less emphasis on Christianity and the divine right of the French kings tells of Clovis putting a flower in his helmet just before his victory at the Battle of Vouillé, leading him to choose the fleur-de-lis as a royal symbol.

Regards
Nic


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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 11:38 pm 
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Hi NIc...I am delighted that you posted that info! Most fascinating..... I want to finish this biography about Safiyah and Kinanah, and then I hope to compete a biography about Clovis and Clothilde....what a fascinating story about them! What a life! Research is always the hardest part because of all the possible interpretations of events...I am ever grateful when people pass along little bits of info that might have taken me years to find.....
Thanks Nic......you gonna join us for that toast? Clovis would love you being there :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 28 May 2012 12:52 am 
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BULLDOGNIC wrote:
Hi Sue, maybe it should be Clovis who deserves a toast ?
Quote:
By the 12th century the fleur-de-lis had become the heraldic emblem of the Capetian kings of France, whose court propaganda traced the first adoption of the fleur-de-lis to the conversion of the Frankish King Clovis I in 493. The story takes various forms, many of which relate to Clovis' conversion, and support the claim of the anointed Kings of France that their authority came directly from God, without the mediation of either the Emperor or the Pope.
Anne Lombard-Jourdan traces the fleur-de-lis to a transformation of the Merovingian crista, a symbol evoking the rising sun (word derived from crescere, "to grow", alluding to the newborn Sun) represented on their coinage, which had the form of a Greek cross with the horizontals curved upwards on either side. Though Lombard-Jourdan associates the emblem with a Romano-Gallic sanctuary Christianized as the Basilica of Saint-Denis in a seamless continuity, most scholars would hesitate to pursue the sign so far.
Some versions of the legend enhance the mystique of royalty by describing a vial of oil sent from heaven to anoint and sanctify Clovis at his coronation, perhaps brought by a dove to Saint Remigius. Another variation says a lily appeared at Clovis' baptismal ceremony as a gift of blessing from an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is often associated with the flower.
Clovis' Burgundian wife, Clotilde, later to be Saint Clothilda, is usually significant in these stories. As well as her part in encouraging her husband to become a Christian, her presence helps emphasise the importance of Burgundy's support for the monarch.
A story which places less emphasis on Christianity and the divine right of the French kings tells of Clovis putting a flower in his helmet just before his victory at the Battle of Vouillé, leading him to choose the fleur-de-lis as a royal symbol.

Regards
Nic


Ahaa!! I knew that dreaded C- word was gonna pop up sooner or later. :) I`ve asked Isaac a few times about his research regarding the C word...but he never replies. A true professional indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Koi Pond Attacks and other misunderstandings
PostPosted: 28 May 2012 1:26 am 
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Quote:
Ahaa!! I knew that dreaded C- word was gonna pop up sooner or later. :) I`ve asked Isaac a few times about his research regarding the C word...but he never replies. A true professional indeed.


Oh dear...is he possibly writing a book about 'C' too?

I think we're gonna need another bottle of bubbly...

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