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 Post subject: for those who have eyes + ears...
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 6:47 pm 
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Grand Master

Joined: 04 Aug 2007 7:08 pm
Posts: 1234
Location: scandinavia
Palsy,

In John's Apocalypse he writes of things so mind-boggling to him he can only use the vocabulary he had at hand. He uses the phrase eyes + ears to mean comprehension thru all the senses, then amalgamate them with the knowledge Jesus bestowed on His Apostles.

This means a leap of faith is involved 'cuz there's nobody on the planet today who saw Jesus firsthand 2,000 years ago. If ya notice all authors and artists of and after that time make a subtle reference to a sheen of glory emanating from Jesus, some call this the Shekinah, no?

Point I get at, in all ethereal renditions concerning Jesus, especially rendered by innumerable artist, this 'light' effect is crucial to the overall effect and message intended for the observer. The same technique is utilized by artists over millenia to describe UFOs.

Since I, like TCJ can't reveal what we know due to the nature of the security clearance system, I will give ya this lil' tidbit that Johnny Cash got clearance from The Pentagon to relate. Cash made a recording in 2000 in which he digresses from his singing to relate a story. He was drafted in the early 1950's, given a battery of tests like all inductees and as a result was sent to Monterey Institute to be trained as a hi-speed morse code intercept translator in Russian.

He was sent to a location in Germany which I know where, perhaps TCJ as well. Cash sez one day a flash message hit his console and what transpired was a verbatim message, unscrambled, relating a Russian pilot flying from 2 known points in Russia and the time required and was the 1st instance the Russians were over Mach-1 flying speed.

I bring this up to illustrate a point. Necessity is the mother of all inventiveness. The Russians were determined to hang in there with the West no matter the cost. Here in the 1950s how many folks realize the military was already utililizing solid state electronics, ala Tesla, long before the 'space race' supposedly unleashed a gazillion electronic gadgets.

The military research climate is always 20+ years ahead when it comes to what we call cutting edge today. Todays so-called cutting edge was perfected 20+ years ago. Palsy is incredibly limited, it truly boggles my mind to witness how he limits himself to being a synapse short of a complete circuit of 2 functioning brain cells.

In Palsy's single-digit, mental-midget world, if Palsy can't comprehend it, well, it don't exist.

That's why I made mention of a statement taken from the Apocalypse. If ya can't grasp the scope of what John wrote yer in a bind, podnah. I will go so far as to say, ya shoot yerself in the foot if ya say, there's no way the hi-tech community can deliver what they hint about, its all sci-fi. Well, reality sez otherwise. In the next few years yer gonna see more razzle-dazzle gadgetry than just non-invasive body scanners looking for hidden objects.

The stuff I see coming down the pike will be these body scanners detecting yer brain waves, all of them and then be able to insert pre-programmed brain waves when yer in a period of low activity, like sleep and get ya to think thoughts yer usually not producing. What's at stake is a robotization process to prevent folks from protesting and going to the barricades.

Ye'll be put in sleep mode, programmed to act like sheeple. If ya think this is far-fetched, the surveillance system the UK put in place is already sending out subliminal messages letting folk know they are being observed, ala Orwell's 1984. The notion of thought crimes is already here.

The more obvious blatant examples are voice overs telling folks they are being observed by these surveillance cameras, 'cuz an observer linked to that particular camera is making the comment. The next phase is to automate these output signals to synch with normal brain wave patterns at an intensity to over-ride the low energy output the body needs to create these waves.

For those who may remember, there was a period of intense microwave bombardment of foreign Embassies + consulates to ferret out which signal frequencies they encountered. This phase was already started at the beginning of the Cld War in the late 1940s. A backside to these microwave saturations was the rise of brain cancers of occupants in all of these Embassies.

The cost was actually higher to the Soviet bloc, 'cuz they were always playing catch-up. Defensive measures taken by the West were eventually copied by the Soviets, so this escalation process culminated in the late 1980s, early 1990s when Pappy Bush + Gorbi joined forces to end the charade called the Cold War.

A new phony Cold War has blossomed up, solely to assist Putin in consolidating control over Russia. The Muslims sit on oil rich turf in the South portions, all the '-stans ya find there. The biggest thorn is the Afghan variant. Bush + Putin wanna construct a Pipelinestan thru all of these places to feed India + China, the future consumers to set the world consumer economy engine going.

With all these machinations of a political nature going on, think tanks all over the world are already war-gaming the what if's of today's situation. I dare say the final Armageddon scenario is included, due to its inevitability.

Here's a last challenge to synapse-challenged Palsy. When do ya think yer gonna be mandatorily micro-nano chipped subcutaneously so that yer life history can be scanned as ya pass thru pre set control points, not of yer choosing?

jake


Last edited by jakeabf on 29 Dec 2008 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 6:49 pm 
Rubbish...!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 6:55 pm 
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Grand Master

Joined: 22 Sep 2008 3:15 pm
Posts: 1566
Von Däniken was fairly well debunked and discredited ages ago.

Paul isn't up to date on this topic.

He is ignorant of mass sightings by hundreds in Brazil, Mexico, Germany and elsewhere, or perhaps he won't address the obvious as he won't with Shasta's topic here and her constant queries other than with a scoff and exclamation point.

His knowledge is seemingly not unlike his dusty tomes on Rennes that has everyone yawning here with his repetitious repertoire.

Note his lack commentary on government officials, astronauts and cosmonauts testimonies while stating no one of intelligence and common sense wonders of these anomalies.

Shasta, he can be a worthy devil's advocate often times but mostly comes in as a despoiler caused by his Lincoln trauma. The one totally denied weeks ago here but now today admitted to.

Pitiful...:(


Last edited by TCJ on 29 Dec 2008 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 6:58 pm 
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High King
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M Norton wrote:
By "skeptic@ibsfinance.com" (Australia)
This book is a real hoot! Unlike most fantasy / comedy, this one actually pretends to be a factual account of the "evil conspiracies" afoot in the world today. Stan's "how to build your own flying saucer", and "where Einstein went wrong with relativity", will have you rolling in the aisles.

I guess this sceptic is of the kind of M Notton. No chance for reality.
Einstein went wrong. He admitted it himself.
If you read the 7 pages of mathematic formulas in Deyos book AND understand it, you will see what Deyo (and Dr. Teller whom Deyo was working for) meant.
Anyway ... I don't care if you understand that ...

off topic:
From 1972 on I drove a Norton Commander. I guess this Norton had more brains than Notton. :lol: :twisted:


Last edited by Eginolf on 29 Dec 2008 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 7:03 pm 
TCJ wrote:
mass sightings by hundreds in Brazil, Mexico, Germany


Yes, and all blithering spacecrafts from outer space!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 7:04 pm 
Eginolf wrote:
[Anyway ... I don't care you understands what ...


Oh yes you do care - you want to seriously believe in rubbish.


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 Post subject: are ya following technical developments in the UK Palsy?
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 7:06 pm 
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Grand Master

Joined: 04 Aug 2007 7:08 pm
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Location: scandinavia
Palsy,

I assume ya know the UK is the most surveilled group on the planet, so tell us why is this so? What have all those cameras done to reduce crime, if at all? Why are they sending out detectable subliminal signals? Who are these signals designated for, like dog owners without a license, maybe?

The UFO concept goes back to OT times with flying flaming chariots, no? At Pentecost in a closed upper room, a beam of light, The Holy Spirit confirmed the Apostles, according to NT. So, if God deemed it necessary for these UFOs to do a specific function, who are you to defy built-in injunctions in the !st Commandment.?

Telling God what He can or can't do is hubris of a most dangerous kind, no? It seems, Palsy, ya never think things thru and consider all the ramifications. Just negative gainsaying ain't gonna make yer counter-argument valid.

jake


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 7:07 pm 
TCJ wrote:
dusty tomes on Rennes


Repetitive and permanent dismissal of the evidence about Sauniere by those who SERIOUSLY believe in Flying Saucers...


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 Post subject: Re: are ya following technical developments in the UK Palsy?
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 7:08 pm 
jakeabf wrote:
The UFO concept goes back to OT times with flying flaming chariots, no?


Here you go --- Daniken has NOT been debunked decades ago...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 7:27 pm 
TCJ wrote:
Lincoln trauma. The one totally denied weeks ago here but now today admitted to.


Idiot! You are totally unable to understand anything!
Henry Lincoln is on a similar wavelength to you!
And you two are both worthy bedfellows!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 7:49 pm 
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Grand Master
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Norton,
Those are excellent links. I prefer to read the criticisms before buying 100% into anyone's theories, even my own. And certainly you are aware that in mid-stream I was willing to acknowledge I had followed bum information and changed course. I am willing to do this regarding UFO theories. The links you provided are excellent for debunking modern UFO theories...

However, the dilema comes when applying same arguments to ancient UFO's such as the DeGelder painting and the Moses painting...and anything before the 19th century. Therein lies the difficulty. What were THEY painting? What did they know? What had they seen?

Norton, what do you see in those paintings? Tell me so that I may try to see the same way and finally agree with you.

Shasta

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Don't make the same mistakes twice. Say NO to reincarnation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 8:10 pm 
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High King
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Shasta wrote:
And certainly you are aware that in mid-stream I was willing to acknowledge I had followed bum information and changed course. I am willing to do this regarding UFO theories.

"UFO theories" ...
:lol:

@ John:
useless to respond.
What I saw in 1979 and again in 1992 was no theory! 8)


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 Post subject: ART and UFOs? No thanks....only art.
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2008 10:48 pm 
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Queen Bee
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Oh for heavens sake....click on the link below & all the "UFO's in art" stuff will be revealed.....it's all in there.

http://sprezzatura.it/Arte/Arte_UFO_1_eng.htm

Lots of lovely colour pictures and mind bogglingly simple explanations.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 1:44 am 
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Grand Master

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That's a great link up that I intend to post in groups more UFO centered in the future. Some are completely clear to see but others debatable. I did on my first post in this thread place "ufo's" in quotes.

Still there's a mystery up there that needs studying, or at least in the opinion astronauts etc. as mentioned throughout this thread.

Paul watch that blood pressure! Whew! :shock:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 2:15 am 
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Grand Master
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Sheila said:

Quote:
Lots of lovely colour pictures and mind bogglingly simple explanations.



Excellent information in that link! Many Thanks.....as I went page by page through the explanations, it was all there, clear as water...oh what fools we have been imagining these artists could have been trying to interpret the Bible through their art and foolishy came up with representations we call UFO's...how silly of me...and yet I have to ask,

How does one "paint" a luminous cloud descending from the sky carrying men and women and angels? In fact there are approximately four attributes of these means of transportation in the Bible. They may be stationary, ascending, descending, or in flight. For a culture that had no concept of flight, this must have been difficult hence reliance on clouds, doves, angels, and assorted discs. For example

The Ascension (Jesus taken up into Heaven)

Act 1:9 And when he [Jesus] had spoken these things, while they [the apostles] beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they [the apostles] looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come [when Christ returns] in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



Or, How would you paint these scenes?


Exodus 13:21 And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: 22: He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

Hmmm now how would I interpret and paint that scene 1,000 years ago? 500 years ago?

Or this?

Numbers 9:20 And so it was, when the cloud was a few days upon the tabernacle; according to the commandment of the Lord they abode in their tents, and according to the commandment of the Lord they journeyed. 21 And so it was, when the cloud abode from even unto the morning, and that the cloud was taken up in the morning, then they journeyed: whether it was by day or by night that the cloud was taken up, they journeyed. ( Whether day or night, the people respond to the movements of the vehicle. )

Deuteronomy 1:33 Who went in the way before you, to search you out a place to pitch your tents in, in fire by night, to shew you by what way ye should go, and in a cloud by day.

So the art can be interpreted as signs of the dove, or constellations, or cloud formations, or the sun and moon witnessing Jesus' birth, his Baptism, his crucifixion....all depicted with signs from the sky as explained in the link Sheila provided.....

But I am asking you how would YOU as the artist interpret (with paint and brush) the Biblical descriptions of flight?
http://www.bibleufo.com/index.htm

I am still willing to give up UFO beliefs if evidence warrents such a change, but I am not willing to doubt the Biblical prophets who have been fairly consistent for past few thousand years..do you doubt them?

Shasta

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Don't make the same mistakes twice. Say NO to reincarnation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 10:23 am 
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Queen Bee
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Glad you liked the link guys......I posted it in response to "UFO's & Art"....don't get me wrong however, there is something mysterious going on .....but these unexplained machines which have been seen by many are not necessarily from " Out There"....don't believe what your governments are telling you...why do you think Gary McKinnon needs to be silenced....what did he find out!

There are important questions to be answered...but not the ones you think!

In haste, Sheila x


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 Post subject: Why is this kid so dangerous for America?
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 1:14 pm 
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The Nerd Who Saw Too Much
The Guardian - UK
7-15-5

Terrified Gary McKinnon says his forays into secret Pentagon networks were never politically motivated.

A computer geek faces 70 years in jail for hacking into the top levels of US defence. He tells Jon Ronson how, hooked and stoned, he landed himself in such hot water.

In 1983, when Gary McKinnon was 17, he went to see the movie WarGames. In the film, a geeky computer whiz-kid hacks into a secret Pentagon network and, inadvertently, almost instigates World War III. Sitting in the cinema, the teenage McKinnon wondered if he, too, could be a hacker. "Really," I say to him now, "WarGames should have put you off hacking for life."

"Well," he replies, "I didn't mean it to actually come true."

WarGames ends with the Pentagon officials telling the young nerd how impressed they are with his technical acumen. He's probably going to grow up to have a brilliant career at NASA or the Department of Defence. This is an unlikely scenario for McKinnon. He faces 20 charges in the US, including stealing computer files, obtaining secrets that might have been "useful to an enemy", intentionally causing damage to a protected computer, and interfering with maritime navigation equipment in New Jersey.

Last month he attended extradition proceedings at Bow Street Magistrates Court in London. He had, the US prosecutors said, perpetrated the "biggest military computer hack of all time". He "caused damage and impaired the integrity of information. The US military district of Washington became inoperable and the cost of repairing the shutdown was $700,000 US." These hacking attacks occurred immediately after September 11, 2001, they said.

This is McKinnon's first interview. He called me out of the blue last week, just as I was screaming at my child to stop knocking on people's doors and running away. "Your son sounds like a hacker," he said. Then he invited me to his home in Bounds Green, north London.

He is good-looking, funny, slightly camp, nerdy, a chain-smoker - and terrified. "I'm walking down the road and I find I can't control my own legs," he says. "And I'm sitting up all night thinking about jail and about being arse-f---ed. And, remember, according to them I was making Washington inoperable 'immediately after September 11'.

"I'm having all these visions of " McKinnon puts on a redneck prisoner voice, "'What you doing attacking our country, boy? Pick up that soap.' Yeah, it is absolutely f---ing terrifying."

The sentence the US Justice Department is seeking - should McKinnon be extradited - is up to 70 years. What McKinnon was hunting for, as he snooped around NASA, and the Pentagon's network, was evidence of a UFO cover-up.

McKINNON was born in Glasgow in 1966. His parents separated when he was six and he moved to London with his mother and stepfather, a bit of a UFO buff. "He comes from Falkirk," McKinnon says, "and just outside Falkirk there's a place called Bonnybridge, which is the UFO capital of the world. When he lived there, he had a dream that he was walking around Bonnybridge seeing huge ships. He told me this and it inflamed my curiosity. He was a great science-fiction reader. So, him being my second father, I started reading science-fiction, too, and doing everything he did."

McKinnon read Isaac Asimov and Robert Heinlein - "the golden age of science-fiction". When he was 15 he joined Bufora, the British UFO Research Association, which describes itself as "a nationwide network of [about] 300 people who have a dedicated, non-cultist interest in understanding the wide-ranging extent of the UFO enigma".

Then he saw WarGames, and he thought: "Can you really do it? Can you really gain unauthorised access to incredibly interesting places? Surely it can't be that easy." And so, in 1995, he gave it a try.

He sat in his girlfriend, Tamsin's, aunt's house in Crouch End, and he began to hack. McKinnon was looking for - and found time and again - network administrators in high levels of the US government and military establishments who hadn't bothered to give themselves passwords. That's how he got in.

He did a few trial runs, hacking into Oxford University's network, for example, and he found the whole business "incredibly exciting. And then it got more exciting when I started going to places where I really shouldn't be."

"Like where?" I ask.

"The US Space Command," he says.

And so, for the next seven years, on and off, McKinnon sat in that aunt's house, a joint in the ashtray and a can of Foster's next to the mouse pad, and he snooped. From time to time, some NASA scientist sitting at his desk somewhere would see his cursor move for no apparent reason. On those occasions, McKinnon's connection would be cut. This would never fail to freak out the then-stoned McKinnon.

When I ask if he is brilliant, he says no. He's just an ordinary, self-taught techie. And, he says, he was never alone. "Once you're on the network, you can do a command called NetStat - Network Status - and it lists all the connections to that machine. There were hackers from Denmark, Italy, Germany, Turkey, Thailand."

"All on at once?" I ask. "You could see hackers from all over the world, snooping around, without the spaceniks or the military realising?"

"Every night," he says.

"What was the most exciting thing you saw?"

"I found a list of officers' names," he says, "under the heading 'Non-Terrestrial Officers'. It doesn't mean little green men. What I think it means is not Earth-based. I found a list of 'fleet-to-fleet transfers', and a list of ship names. I looked them up. They weren't US Navy ships. What I saw made me believe they have some kind of spaceship, off-planet."

"The Americans have a secret spaceship?" I ask.

"That's what this trickle of evidence has led me to believe."

"What were the ship names?"

"I can't remember," he says. "I was smoking a lot of dope at the time. Not good for the intellect."

This was November 2000. By now, McKinnon was hooked. He quit his job as a systems administrator for a small business, "which hugely pissed off my girlfriend, Tamsin".

"It was the last straw," he says. "She dumped me and started seeing this other bloke because I was such a selfish waste of space. Poor Tamsin. And she was the one paying the phone bill because I didn't have a job. We were still living together. God, have you ever tried living with someone after you've split up? It's bad."

So, while Tamsin was trying to get on with her new relationship, McKinnon was in the living room of her aunt's house, hacking. He snooped around all the forts - Fort Meade, Fort Benning, and others - reading internal court-martial reports of soldiers getting imprisoned for rape and murder and drug abuse.

"You end up lusting after more and more complex security measures," he says. "It was like a game. I loved computer games. I still do. It was like a real game. It was addictive. Hugely addictive." It was never really politically motivated.

Yes, he was hacking immediately after September 11, 2001, but only because he wanted to see if there was a conspiracy. "Why did the building fall like a controlled series of explosions?" he asks. "I hate conspiracy theories, so I thought I'd find out for myself."

He strenuously denies the Justice Department's charge that he caused the "US military district of Washington" to become "inoperable". Well, once, he admits - but only once - he inadvertently pressed the wrong button and may have deleted some government files.

"I thought, 'Ooh, bloody hell.' And that's when I stopped for a while. And then my friend told me about DARPA. And so I started again."

DARPA is the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency, an intriguing collection of brilliant military scientists, funded by the Pentagon. DARPA has been widely credited with inventing, among other things, the internet, the global positioning system, the computer mouse, and - somewhat more boneheadedly - FutureMAP, an online futures market designed to predict assassinations and bombings by encouraging investor speculation in such crimes. The US Senate once described FutureMAP as "an unbelievably stupid idea". DARPA has long been of interest to conspiracy theorists because it is semi-secretive, bizarre and occupies that murky world that lies between science and war.

McKinnon was caught in November 2002. He says it was inevitable because he was "getting a bit sloppy". He pauses. "I'd never have envisaged this happening to myself, but I did get a bit megalomaniacal, as well. It got a bit silly. I ended up talking to people I hacked into - I'd instant-message them, using WordPad, with a bit of a political diatribe. You know, I'd leave a message on their desktop that read, 'Secret government is blah blah blah."'

McKinnon was tracked down because he'd used his email address to download a hacking program called Remotely Anywhere. "God knows why I used my real email address," he says. "I suppose it means I'm not a secretive, sophisticated checking myself every-step-of-the-way type of hacker."

On the night before his arrest, McKinnon had been up playing games. "Maybe I'd been doing a bit of weak, fun hacking, too," he says. "I'd had one hour's sleep, and I woke up completely muddled, and suddenly at the bottom of my bed there was this voice: 'Hello, my name's Jeff Donson from the National High Tech Crime Unit. Gary McKinnon, you're under arrest.'

"They put Tamsin and me in the meat wagon. They took my PC, Tamsin's PC, three other computers I was fixing for friends. They went upstairs and took my girlfriend's aunty's daughter's computer."

McKinnon was kept in a police station overnight. Then the Americans offered him a deal, via his British solicitor. "They said, 'If you incur the cost of the whole extradition process, be a good boy, come over here, we'll give you three or four years, rather than the whole sentence.'

"I said, 'OK, give me that in writing.' They said, 'Oh, no, we can't do that.' So they were offering a secret trial, no right of appeal on the outcome, no comment to the newspapers, and nothing in writing. My solicitor, doing her job, advised me to take it, and when I said no, she was very 'Ooh, they're going to come down heavy'."

In return, McKinnon offered a somewhat harebrained counter deal, via a Virginia public defender. "I made a sort of veiled threat to them. I said, 'You know the places I've been, so you know the stuff I've seen,' kind of thing." He pauses and blushes slightly.

"You know, the, uh, Non-Terrestrial Officers. The spaceships. 'The whole world thinks it's co-operating in building the International Space Station, but you've already got a space-based army that you refer to as Non-Terrestrial Officers."' There is a silence. "I had very little evidence. It's not a very good bargaining chip at all, really, is it?"

Given the Justice Department has announced the information McKinnon downloaded was not "classified", and he was stoned much of the time, perhaps we can assume NASA is not too worried about his "discoveries".

McKinnon hasn't spoken publicly before, but now, with the extradition proceedings, nothing is left open to him. For a while, he thought he might end up like the computer nerd from WarGames, having a brilliant career working for the Americans. "They need people like me," he says. "But that's not going to happen."

He and Tamsin have split. He no longer lives in Crouch End, but in the nearby, slightly more down-at-heel Bounds Green, and has given up smoking dope. He is not allowed near the internet, is not allowed a passport, and spends a lot of time reading and sitting in the pub, awaiting his fate.

Nothing much happened in the years since his arrest in 2002 under the Computer Misuse Act - no charges were brought against him in Britain. Then, on June 8, he found himself in front of Bow Street magistrates, the target of extradition proceedings. That's when the panic attacks kicked in again, the horror visions of life in a US jail. He had poked around, he says, but he hadn't broken anything, besides that one mistake. He thought he was going to get a year, max. Now they're talking about 70 years. "You know," he says. "everyone thinks this is fun or exciting. But it isn't exciting to me. It is terrifying."


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PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 1:31 pm 
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Grand Master
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Geesh. The poor guy (Gary McKinnon). I wish he had learned more. Seems he struck gold with

Quote:
'Non-Terrestrial Officers'


but didn't have proper mining skills to know how to extract it.

The interview with Gary McKinnon in TheGuardian appears dated to 2005....What has happened to him since then? Does anyone know?

Meanwhile, a lot of excellent links have been posted here by several of you. I shall try to go to each one, whether pro or con, and see what the world thinks.

Shasta

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 1:50 pm 
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Queen Bee
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http://www.rense.com/general80/myst7.htm

Here is just one part of an 18 part on-going investigation into stationary machines up there ...Make your own minds up...but these images are not the International Space station.

I posted some images but then my husband said it would be breaking the law and I might get carted away...so I can only post the link apparently as he needs me to go back to work & stop stirring things up!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 2:30 pm 
Shasta wrote:
However, the dilema comes


There is no "dilema" - just people lacking common sense.

What do I see in those pictures?
I see representations of Holiness and Divine Symbolism.

Please do not ask me that STUPID question again - and if that link to the article about UFOs and Renaissance paintings did not help you, then NOTHING will. You are stuck permanently in the make-believe world of rubbish flying saucers in works of classical art.


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 Post subject: Re: ART and UFOs? No thanks....only art.
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 2:33 pm 
Sheila wrote:
simple explanations.


Simple-minded "explanations" by believers in Flying Saucers.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 2:34 pm 
TCJ wrote:
watch that blood pressure! Whew! :shock:


Watch your gullibility.
Blind to it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 2:38 pm 
Shasta wrote:
Sheila said:

Quote:
Lots of lovely colour pictures and mind bogglingly simple explanations.



Excellent information in that link! Many Thanks.....as I went page by page through the explanations, it was all there, clear as water...oh what fools we have been imagining these artists could have been trying to interpret the Bible through their art and foolishy came up with representations we call UFO's...how silly of me...and yet I have to ask,

How does one "paint" a luminous cloud descending from the sky carrying men and women and angels? In fact there are approximately four attributes of these means of transportation in the Bible. They may be stationary, ascending, descending, or in flight. For a culture that had no concept of flight, this must have been difficult hence reliance on clouds, doves, angels, and assorted discs. For example

The Ascension (Jesus taken up into Heaven)

Act 1:9 And when he [Jesus] had spoken these things, while they [the apostles] beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they [the apostles] looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come [when Christ returns] in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



Or, How would you paint these scenes?


Exodus 13:21 And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: 22: He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

Hmmm now how would I interpret and paint that scene 1,000 years ago? 500 years ago?

Or this?

Numbers 9:20 And so it was, when the cloud was a few days upon the tabernacle; according to the commandment of the Lord they abode in their tents, and according to the commandment of the Lord they journeyed. 21 And so it was, when the cloud abode from even unto the morning, and that the cloud was taken up in the morning, then they journeyed: whether it was by day or by night that the cloud was taken up, they journeyed. ( Whether day or night, the people respond to the movements of the vehicle. )

Deuteronomy 1:33 Who went in the way before you, to search you out a place to pitch your tents in, in fire by night, to shew you by what way ye should go, and in a cloud by day.

So the art can be interpreted as signs of the dove, or constellations, or cloud formations, or the sun and moon witnessing Jesus' birth, his Baptism, his crucifixion....all depicted with signs from the sky as explained in the link Sheila provided.....

But I am asking you how would YOU as the artist interpret (with paint and brush) the Biblical descriptions of flight?
http://www.bibleufo.com/index.htm

I am still willing to give up UFO beliefs if evidence warrents such a change, but I am not willing to doubt the Biblical prophets who have been fairly consistent for past few thousand years..do you doubt them?

Shasta



Folk just do not understand Religion.
Or Religious symbolism expressed in Art AND in text.

No, this is not a "phase" that some people are going through.
It is an indefinite permanent belief system in the existence of Flying Saucers in the Bible and in Works of Classical Religious Art.

If people are prepared to believe in this rubbish, then how can it be surprising that the same type of people are also willing to believe in a bogus and made-up RLC "mystery"....


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PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 3:00 pm 
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Mr Norton, you seemed to have missed the point about the posts above, the link below points out the simple explanation for people mistakingly thinking there are images of UFO's in art......catch up or wake up!

http://sprezzatura.it/Arte/Arte_UFO_1_eng.htm


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PostPosted: 30 Dec 2008 4:48 pm 
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OK...I am reading every post here, and following the links to read those excellent web pages...This is my conclusion; Norton is right. Those are NOT flying saucers and UFO's. I believe him. They are paintings of a spiritual nature trying to interpret experiences in the Bible that deal with angels, Elohim (another word for angels) clouds that seem to appear and dissapear on command, men and angels traveling between earth and heavenly realms.

I see a glass of water before us. Some are saying it is half-empty. Some are saying it is half-full. Who is correct? In my view, Norton is just as correct as Sheila.

The reason for this discussion is to determine what if any Biblical renderings have led to beliefe in extraterrestrials-UFO's. Look again at Jesus encounters: Are these spiritual as Norton states? Or "Encounters" between far flung beings? It really can be interpreted either way and neither would be right or wrong.
_______________________________________________

Close Encounters of the Bible Kind

The Close Encounters of Jesus

"No other individual, out of the many in the biblical narrative, had more close encounters than Jesus and none of the many close encounters witnessed in the Bible were more recorded than those of Jesus. (Shasta's note: Jesus had frequent -flyer miles)

From before his conception to after his resurrection, the life of Jesus was associated with angels and flying craft, not to mention many other paranormal events. Even though the period covered by the gospels is only 3 years, the scores of miracles and encounters recorded are only a small part of the actual volume of anomalous occurrences. The verification of that fact is given by an eyewitness, the Apostle John, John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. This is just one more reason for mourning the act of destroying many hundreds of biblical books by the early church leaders.
Presented here is a brief chronology of the encounters of Jesus and his obvious close association with flying craft.

The Birth
An angel named Gabriel appeared to the priest Zacharias, an elder man, and informed him that his elderly wife, Elisabeth, would become pregnant with the child who would become John the Baptist. The angel Gabriel then went to Mary, a cousin of Elisabeth, and informed her that she, too, would become miraculously pregnant with the Christ. Upon the conception of Mary, an angel appeared to Joseph to ease his false fears about Mary's infidelity.
At the occasion of Jesus' birth, certain wise men (magicians, no specific number) from the East came to Jerusalem searching for the birthplace of a child they had determined would become a great leader and King of the Jews. Herod, the king of Judea appointed by the Roman senate, found this upsetting and brought his counselors together to determine the validity of the magician’s quest. When his advisors confirmed that the prophecy was known, he attempted to enlist the travelers as informants, demanding that if they indeed found this child , they should return and report it directly to him. Having left Herod's company, they encountered what Matthew describes as a star that apparently led them to the place of the birth and hovered over it. This obviously was a very bright object, as stars do not travel ahead of and lead groups of people to and hover over specific locations. In the Old Testament, bright glowing vehicles did lead Moses and the nation of Israel on their 40-year journey and were known to hover over specific locations.
After they delivered gifts to the Christ child, they were warned not to return and inform Herod. So, thus they departed, returning to their homeland by another route. As soon as they departed, an angel appeared to Joseph and told him to take the child to Egypt and that this same angel would come to him when it was safe to return. This was done after Herod's death.

The Baptism
Jesus was baptized by his cousin, John the Baptist and a visual sighting of what is called the Holy Spirit descended out of the sky and a voice was heard from the sky saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

The Temptation
After spending 40 days in the desert on an extended fast, Jesus was confronted by Satan who tried to cajole and bribe him into submission. After this failed, angels came and ministered to Jesus. It should be noted that his cousin, John the Baptist, also went into the desert.

The Transfiguration
Jesus took Peter, James, and John, his brother, up on a high mountain specifically to be away from the crowds to pray. While he was off at a distance praying, the apostles fell asleep, as the hour was late. Upon awakening, they saw a bright object hovering over Jesus and everything took on a brilliant white appearance. Suddenly, 2 men appeared beside Jesus and began discussing his upcoming death. The apostles mistakenly identified these two men as Moses and Elias, as these two were known to have been in such an object in the ancient writings. The two men then rose into the bright object and a voice spoke from the object saying, "This is my beloved Son: hear him." The place of the transfiguration was probably Mount Hermon and not Mount Tabor as is commonly thought.

An Encounter Before The Crucifixion

This little known encounter was recorded by the Apostle John as occurring just before the Crucifixion: John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

The Crucifixion
Though the New Testament is rather vague on the unusual occurrences at the crucifixion of Christ, the events, found in the Gospels, that struck Jerusalem had to be horrendous with a major earthquake, reports of the dead rising and a three-hour darkness over the land occurring .There was another famous person who recorded the anomalies occurring after the Crucifixion:

From the Epistle of Pontius Pilate to the Roman Emperor comes this:
"….and when he was hanged supernatural signs appeared."From the Report of Pilate to the Governor sent to Augustus Caesar in Rome:
"Now when he was crucified there was a darkness over all the world and the sun was obscure for half a day, and the stars appear but no luster was seen in them and the moon lost its brightness as though tinged with blood." "And the terror of the earthquake continued from the sixth hour of preparation until the ninth hour; when it was evening on the first day of the week, there came a sound from heaven, and at the third hour of the night the sun appeared more luminous than it had ever shown lighting the whole hemisphere and the heaven became seven times more luminous than on all other days. And as lightning flashes suddenly come forth as in a storm so there were seen men lofty in stature and surpassing in glory a countless host, crying out, and their voice was heard as that of the exceedingly loud thunder. . . " "And all that night the Light ceased not shining. And many of the Jews died in the chasm of the Earth, being swallowed up, so that on the morrow most of those who have been against Jesus were not to be found. Others saw the apparition of men rising again whom none of us had ever seen."
From the Report of Pontius Pilate sent to Tiberius Caesar in Rome:
"And on the first day of the week, about the third hour of the night, the sun appeared as it never shown before, and the whole heaven became bright. And as lightnings come in a storm, so certain men of lofty stature in beautiful array, and of indescribable glory, appeared in the air, a countless host of angels flying out saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will good will among men..."
(Shasta's note: This is our dilema...this can be spiritual or can be the plot for the next Spielberg UFO film)

The Resurrection
Three days after the crucifixion of Christ, witnesses reported that a glorious angel, clothed in white, descended from the sky to the sepulcher were the body of Christ had been entombed and announced that Jesus had risen from the dead.

The Ascension
After appearing to many followers, it was reported that a cloud / vehicle hovered over Jesus and he was lifted up into it. After he was taken, two men appeared and told his followers that he would return in the same cloud / vehicle he was seen leaving in.

After the Ascension
Jesus confronted Saul, who became Paul, during which a bright light from the sky and a voice from an unseen source were recorded. The Apostle John, while in exile, gave witness to an encounter that is remarkably similar to the encounter of the prophet Ezekiel.

The Conclusion
Even a cursory study of the close encounters witnessed in the Old Testament and compiled in this work will show these sightings are almost identical to those experienced during the life of Christ. The most distinct difference is that Yahovah, the God most often heard speaking to the nation of Israel from the vehicles, is now in human form. The God speaking from the vehicles is now the Father of Jesus, Yahovah in human form. His conception, birth, baptism, travails, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension are all accompanied by encounters with very physical beings and cloudlike flying craft. After he was taken up into a vehicle, he is once again heard speaking from and seen appearing in the vehicles he spoke from and appeared in as Yhovah in the Old Testament. When considering that the two men at the ascension declared he would return the same way he left, and that the "Second Coming" is described as many thousands of clouds / vehicles flying across the skies, a new reality appears. Christ is not only a contactee, he is a regular occupant and, no doubt, commander of a fleet of high tech, glowing, and hovering vehicles.

The Sources: http://www.bibleufo.com/encounters5.htm
The Birth: Luke 1, Matthew 2
The Temptation: Matthew 4
The Baptism: Matthew 3, Mark 1, Luke 3, and John 1
The Transfiguration: Matthew 17, Mark 9, Luke 9, and 2 Peter 1
The Crucifixion: The Lost Books of the Bible, and the Forgotten Books of Eden, L.B. Press
The Resurrection: Matthew 28
The Ascension: Mark 16, Luke 24, and Acts 1
After the Ascension: Acts 22 and Revelation 4
The Second Coming: Daniel 7, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 1 Thessalonians 4, and Revelation 1 and 14

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I am adding one more comment here. Norton has revealed to me what is driving him. He is a devout Christian who believes the literal Bible and who is fighting to defend the divinity of Jesus as he understands it. He is defending his faith. Norton, in this we do agree. Jesus was a unique and special individual, appointed to deliver messages and act as intermediary between God and man (God meaning whatever you believe Him to be-spiritual or supernatural or ET...that's another issue altogether) I believe this, and I believe Jesus did his part very well, although at times a Reluctant Messenger, an excellent messenger none- the-less...

That you do not tolerate disrespect of Jesus the man has earned my respect for you..

_________________
Don't make the same mistakes twice. Say NO to reincarnation.


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