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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 5:28 pm 
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wayward wrote:
Roger wrote:
wayward wrote:
Of course one of the many purposes of the Albigensian Crusade and subsequent inquisition would have been to rid the known world of this unauthorized manuscript.


Not at all. Cathars by other names in other areas weren't really pursued with much vigour. The fact that the exploitation of Catharism by a certain faction of the nobility of the Languedoc threatened the two pillars of Medieval Order was the primary essential consideration. That, and rich pickings in war booty.



The church council of 1176 near Albi which declared the "Cathar doctrine heretical" was the ultimate reason behind the Albigensian Crusade which began in earnest in 1209. The nobility became involved when Innocent III offered the lands of these heretics as a reward, after first trying to get the King of France and others to act against them. Of course there were Cathars in other areas but the Languedoc was the breeding ground where it had become an alarmingly popular movement. So what was the heresy? After all they were Christians, it had to come from their manuscripts, that is where doctrine comes from after all. As I said I believe an original or at the very least a very early copy of the 4th gospel was one of these more popular Cathar manuscripts.


"The Gospel of the Secret Supper" aka "John's Interrogation" was seized by the Carcassonne Inquisition from a Bogomil Bishop and seems to indicate that at least some of the Cathars believed Yohannan bar Zebedee was the "Beloved Disciple". You can read it here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MImaI4 ... er&f=false

Father Silence

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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 5:37 pm 
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wayward wrote:
I have always thought the 4th gospel, alledgedly written by John son of Zebedee was at or near the center of this graal mystery. Part of the Cathar heresy was the nearly original version of this scripture that they revered. Of course one of the many purposes of the Albigensian Crusade and subsequent inquisition would have been to rid the known world of this unauthorized manuscript.


The Book of John the Evangelist doesn't even come close to being an "original" version of the 4th Gospel. One can't even compare the two, they're entirely different books. See for yourself:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/cathar-gospel.html

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 5:41 pm 
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TCP wrote:

The Book of John the Evangelist doesn't even come close to being an "original" version of the 4th Gospel. One can't even compare the two, they're entirely different books. See for yourself:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/cathar-gospel.html

TCP

Beat You!

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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 6:03 pm 
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wayward wrote:
So what was the heresy? After all they were Christians, it had to come from their manuscripts, that is where doctrine comes from after all. As I said I believe an original or at the very least a very early copy of the 4th gospel was one of these more popular Cathar manuscripts.


There is no reason to believe that the Cathars had, used, or preferred a different version of the 4th Gospel than the Catholics used. The dualist doctrine of the Bogomils, adopted by the Cathars, is found in the Book of John the Evangelist which I cited above. It isn't merely a different version of the former, it is an entirely different work of Bogomil origin, unknown before the 6th century CE.

Were the Cathars Christian? Not in the eyes of the Catholic or Orthodox churches of the time. I suppose they, and other Trinitarian churches, might not consider Mormons to be Christians for their rejection of the dogma of the Holy Trinity and for their adoption of subsequent "gospels".

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 6:06 pm 
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Father Silence wrote:
TCP wrote:

The Book of John the Evangelist doesn't even come close to being an "original" version of the 4th Gospel. One can't even compare the two, they're entirely different books. See for yourself:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/cathar-gospel.html

TCP

Beat You!

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THPPPPPPPP!!! (that's supposed to be a raspberry).

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 6:09 pm 
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TCP wrote:
There is no reason to believe that the Cathars had, used, or preferred a different version of the 4th Gospel than the Catholics used. The dualist doctrine of the Bogomils, adopted by the Cathars, is found in the Book of John the Evangelist which I cited above. It isn't merely a different version of the former, it is an entirely different work of Bogomil origin, unknown before the 6th century CE.

Were the Cathars Christian? Not in the eyes of the Catholic or Orthodox churches of the time. I suppose they, and other Trinitarian churches, might not consider Mormons to be Christians for their rejection of the dogma of the Holy Trinity and for their adoption of subsequent "gospels".

TCP


And don't forget that while Catholics and Protestants generally recognize each other as Christians, that hasn't stopped them from declaring war on each other numerous times.

FS

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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 6:09 pm 
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TCP wrote:
Father Silence wrote:
TCP wrote:

The Book of John the Evangelist doesn't even come close to being an "original" version of the 4th Gospel. One can't even compare the two, they're entirely different books. See for yourself:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/cathar-gospel.html

TCP

Beat You!

FS


THPPPPPPPP!!! (that's supposed to be a raspberry).

TCP


Hm. Maybe we are basically competitive.

FS

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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 7:31 pm 
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Hmm, the bouncing ball has bypassed Wayward....apologies if he is visually impaired in anyway though.


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 7:50 pm 
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"Chris-tian,n 1 : a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings"--- from the Websters New Student Dictionary. So of course the question would be what were his teachings. btw the Mormons do believe in a trinity, they describe it somewhat differently then the RCC is all.

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Last edited by wayward on 14 Oct 2012 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 8:10 pm 
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...are you touch-typing?


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 8:14 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
...are you touch-typing?



not sure what you mean Sheila, but if you are asking if I know how to type, ( :? not very well)

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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 8:36 pm 
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where has everyones sense of humour gone...you are way too serious lad :D


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 8:53 pm 
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I wasn't being serious, perhaps I used the wrong smiley face :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 9:00 pm 
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never mind laddie, don't mind me...just tidy up your spelling :D


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2010 1:43 am 
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wayward wrote:
"Chris-tian,n 1 : a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings"--- from the Websters New Student Dictionary. So of course the question would be what were his teachings. btw the Mormons do believe in a trinity, they discribe it somewhat differently then the RCC is all.


Mormons do not view the Holy Trinity as one god in three persons, they see it as three separate gods (which, I have to admit, makes more sense to me because I've never quite rationalized the whole "three-in-one" concept).

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2010 6:11 am 
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TCP wrote:
.......... I've never quite rationalized the whole "three-in-one" concept

Past - presence - future: three in one - as there exists nothing but presence right now. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2010 11:38 am 
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TCP wrote:
wayward wrote:
"Chris-tian,n 1 : a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings"--- from the Websters New Student Dictionary. So of course the question would be what were his teachings. btw the Mormons do believe in a trinity, they discribe it somewhat differently then the RCC is all.


Mormons do not view the Holy Trinity as one god in three persons, they see it as three separate gods (which, I have to admit, makes more sense to me because I've never quite rationalized the whole "three-in-one" concept).

TCP



from "Light Planet" What Mormons believe!

"Latter-day Saints believe in the new testament teaching that there is a father a son and a holy ghost, all fully divine, then Latter- day Saints believe in the doctrine of the Trinity...However, Mormons do not believe in the definition of the Trinity formulated by the councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon"

and you are right Tim, it does make more sense then the whole three in one thing

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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2012 4:48 pm 
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Image

??

:mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2012 5:02 pm 
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No.


imho of course

the Three in One was closer to the mark for me.

The Transfiguration...past, present and future...all in one glorious moment of Eternity.

"Oh death, where is thy sting? Oh grave, where is thy victory?"
the message being, that we awaken in the moment we die.

Et in Arcadia Ego


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2012 6:43 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
No.


imho of course

the Three in One was closer to the mark for me.

The Transfiguration...past, present and future...all in one glorious moment of Eternity.

"Oh death, where is thy sting? Oh grave, where is thy victory?"
the message being, that we awaken in the moment we die.

Et in Arcadia Ego


Image

Why stop at three? :mrgreen:

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2012 12:02 am 
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TCP wrote:
Why stop at three?

TCP


TCP you said you spent some time with the local populations. What did they tell you about these markers or triune crossroads? What were the legends associated with these particular places?

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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2012 12:57 am 
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rain wrote:
TCP wrote:
Why stop at three?

TCP


TCP you said you spent some time with the local populations. What did they tell you about these markers or triune crossroads? What were the legends associated with these particular places?


I said I've visited the area, not that I spent time talking folklore with the locals while there but I have befriended a few through the Internet. There are a few good books on the topic, on Pyrenean mythology specifically (which I can muddle through in French) and a couple on French and Basque folklore that are (mercifully) in English.

If you're speaking of calvaires, my understanding is that they derive from old altars to pagan deities that later became Christianized with the addition of crosses. There is also something called a brandon erected at crossroads that were burned on the Summer Solstice (i.e. St. John's Day). Here is a picture of one:

Image

There are a lot of beliefs about crossroads, both as places where spirits and witches congregate, and as places where one is safe from them. In pagan times one would leave an offering at a roadside altar to ask the local deity for protection. I suppose roadside calvaires served pretty much the same purpose.

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2012 7:04 am 
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TCP wrote:
There are a lot of beliefs about crossroads, both as places where spirits and witches congregate, and as places where one is safe from them.

... or where one sells his soul to the devil. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2012 6:42 pm 
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Eginolf wrote:
TCP wrote:
There are a lot of beliefs about crossroads, both as places where spirits and witches congregate, and as places where one is safe from them.

... or where one sells his soul to the devil. :lol:


That works too... :lol:

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: What is "The Grail"?
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2013 3:18 pm 
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An interesting supposition for the grail legends when taken in context with all that was happening at the time……

Could Eleanor’s wedding gift to Louis be the vessel described in Chrétien’s Perceval, a variant description of the family heirloom that Eleanor had long
regretted giving to Louis; a description constructed from the memory of the heirloom housed at St. Dennis’, Paris; a vessel that gave off a refracted colored light whose brilliance was such that candles would have lost their brightness like the stars or the moon when the sun rises? Could Chrétien have used this vessel at Eleanor and Marie’s request as a model for his depiction of the grail?

At her wedding celebration to Louis VII Eleanor lavished many valuable gifts upon her guests, she presented her husband with a cut rock crystal and gold vase inlaid with precious jewels. This is Eleanor’s only personal possession that survives. It is currently on display in Paris’s Louvre Museum. The vase was a family heirloom given to her by her father, William X. It had been passed down through Eleanor’s family for generations. Louis would give this precious heirloom to Abbot Sugar. In 1137 Sugar began his renovation of St. Dennis, the old abbey church.

http://www.fwquestclub.com/welcome_file ... _grail.pdf


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