Arcadia Discussion Zone

"The Gospel of the Secret Supper" aka "John's Interrogation" was seized by the Carcassonne Inquisition from a Bogomil Bishop and seems to indicate that at least some of the Cathars believed Yohannan bar Zebedee was the "Beloved Disciple". You can read it here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MImaI4 ... er&f=false

Father Silence

The Book of John the Evangelist doesn't even come close to being an "original" version of the 4th Gospel. One can't even compare the two, they're entirely different books. See for yourself:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/cathar-gospel.html

TCP

Beat You!

FS

There is no reason to believe that the Cathars had, used, or preferred a different version of the 4th Gospel than the Catholics used. The dualist doctrine of the Bogomils, adopted by the Cathars, is found in the Book of John the Evangelist which I cited above. It isn't merely a different version of the former, it is an entirely different work of Bogomil origin, unknown before the 6th century CE.

Were the Cathars Christian? Not in the eyes of the Catholic or Orthodox churches of the time. I suppose they, and other Trinitarian churches, might not consider Mormons to be Christians for their rejection of the dogma of the Holy Trinity and for their adoption of subsequent "gospels".

TCP

THPPPPPPPP!!! (that's supposed to be a raspberry).

TCP

And don't forget that while Catholics and Protestants generally recognize each other as Christians, that hasn't stopped them from declaring war on each other numerous times.

FS

Hm. Maybe we are basically competitive.

FS

Hmm, the bouncing ball has bypassed Wayward....apologies if he is visually impaired in anyway though.

"Chris-tian,n 1 : a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings"--- from the Websters New Student Dictionary. So of course the question would be what were his teachings. btw the Mormons do believe in a trinity, they describe it somewhat differently then the RCC is all.

...are you touch-typing?

not sure what you mean Sheila, but if you are asking if I know how to type, ( not very well)

where has everyones sense of humour gone...you are way too serious lad

I wasn't being serious, perhaps I used the wrong smiley face

never mind laddie, don't mind me...just tidy up your spelling

Mormons do not view the Holy Trinity as one god in three persons, they see it as three separate gods (which, I have to admit, makes more sense to me because I've never quite rationalized the whole "three-in-one" concept).

TCP

Past - presence - future: three in one - as there exists nothing but presence right now.

from "Light Planet" What Mormons believe!

"Latter-day Saints believe in the new testament teaching that there is a father a son and a holy ghost, all fully divine, then Latter- day Saints believe in the doctrine of the Trinity...However, Mormons do not believe in the definition of the Trinity formulated by the councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon"

and you are right Tim, it does make more sense then the whole three in one thing

??

No.


imho of course

the Three in One was closer to the mark for me.

The Transfiguration...past, present and future...all in one glorious moment of Eternity.

"Oh death, where is thy sting? Oh grave, where is thy victory?"
the message being, that we awaken in the moment we die.

Et in Arcadia Ego

Why stop at three?

TCP

TCP you said you spent some time with the local populations. What did they tell you about these markers or triune crossroads? What were the legends associated with these particular places?

I said I've visited the area, not that I spent time talking folklore with the locals while there but I have befriended a few through the Internet. There are a few good books on the topic, on Pyrenean mythology specifically (which I can muddle through in French) and a couple on French and Basque folklore that are (mercifully) in English.

If you're speaking of calvaires, my understanding is that they derive from old altars to pagan deities that later became Christianized with the addition of crosses. There is also something called a brandon erected at crossroads that were burned on the Summer Solstice (i.e. St. John's Day). Here is a picture of one:



There are a lot of beliefs about crossroads, both as places where spirits and witches congregate, and as places where one is safe from them. In pagan times one would leave an offering at a roadside altar to ask the local deity for protection. I suppose roadside calvaires served pretty much the same purpose.

TCP

... or where one sells his soul to the devil.

That works too...

TCP

An interesting supposition for the grail legends when taken in context with all that was happening at the time……

Could Eleanor’s wedding gift to Louis be the vessel described in Chrétien’s Perceval, a variant description of the family heirloom that Eleanor had long
regretted giving to Louis; a description constructed from the memory of the heirloom housed at St. Dennis’, Paris; a vessel that gave off a refracted colored light whose brilliance was such that candles would have lost their brightness like the stars or the moon when the sun rises? Could Chrétien have used this vessel at Eleanor and Marie’s request as a model for his depiction of the grail?

At her wedding celebration to Louis VII Eleanor lavished many valuable gifts upon her guests, she presented her husband with a cut rock crystal and gold vase inlaid with precious jewels. This is Eleanor’s only personal possession that survives. It is currently on display in Paris’s Louvre Museum. The vase was a family heirloom given to her by her father, William X. It had been passed down through Eleanor’s family for generations. Louis would give this precious heirloom to Abbot Sugar. In 1137 Sugar began his renovation of St. Dennis, the old abbey church.

http://www.fwquestclub.com/welcome_file ... _grail.pdf