Arcadia Discussion Zone

Hi,

Has this Sandri claim been discussed on the forum?



Regards,

Spartacus

Hi Roger,

Thanks for replying...

Roger wrote:




Ok. I take your point... and I don't believe that the Plantard PoS existed before 1956...

However, I do believe the PoS had an agenda (or agendas) and that the themes that have been woven into the Mythos are therefore worthy of examination, for various reasons.

Although I accept that Sandri might not even have been privy to all of what PP and PdC were 'up to', I'd still be interested in discussing why there is a claim that there is a PoS pilgrimage site at Interwalden and what relevance it may have in the overall narrative...

Regards,

Spartacus

Hi Roger,

Roger wrote:



All very true. That thought had crossed my mind... but I also questioned whether the Interwalden 'theme' might have an older provenance, so threw it out there for a reaction

What's in Interwalden?

Regards,

Spartacus

Possibly a stage-post on the Way of St James?

If “Interwalden” is the same as “Unterwalden”, which seems possible, then one might speculate that what’s there is the sanctuary at Ranft of St Nicholas of Flüe, the patron saint of Switzerland, who, “after receiving a mystical vision of a lily eaten by a horse, decided to devote himself entirely to the contemplative life. [...] In 1470, Pope Paul II granted the first indulgence to the sanctuary at Ranft and it became a place of pilgrimage, since it lay on the Jakobsweg (“The Way of St. James”), the road pilgrims travelled on to Santiago de Compostela in Spain.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_of_Fl%C3%BCe

Not sure if there's much point in pursuing all this, but there may (or may not!) be a subtext in Sandri’s words, and possibly The Way of St James is (literally) the connection with Le Puy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stjacquescompostelle1.png

“Because of its location, Le Puy was a convenient starting point for pilgrims to the Shrine of St. James in Santiago de Compostella.”

http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-145.html

The same site also narrates “an interesting connection between Lourdes and Notre Dame de Puy”.

For more on the visions of Nicholas of Flüe:
http://www.psychovision.ch/rfr/radbilde.htm

Paddy

Hi Paddy,

Thanks for the very interesting reply.

Paddy wrote:



I take your point, as I did Roger's earlier...but because I do not believe that the PP Priory of Sion existed before 1956, everything claimed by Sion 'insiders' about the 'historical' Sion is IMHO 'a subtext'. And this subtext is IMHO a window onto the Sion agenda. Of course, I also accept that Sandri's subtext might have no relevance to the original Sion subtext... but I nevertheless enjoy chasing up these 'leads'...

For reasons that I have explained elsewhere, I find the Seal of Solomon association (vague as it is) interesting for obvious reasons...

And, of course, some of the 'usual suspect' PoS themes make an appearance in the links you have posted... I particularly like the 'political mystic' appellation in the context of the Sion Mythos...

Regards,

Spartacus

Yes, and the "Domus Canons" was its alms house.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09185b.htm

Honoured with such prerogatives as these, the Church of Le Puy assumed a sort of primacy in respect to most of the Churches of France, and even of Christendom. This primacy manifested itself practically in a right to beg, established with the authorization of the Holy See, in virtue of which the chapter of Le Puy levied a veritable tax upon almost all the Christian countries to support its hospital of Notre-Dame. In Catalonia this droit de quete, recognized by Spanish Crown, was so thoroughly established that the chapter had its collectors permanently installed in that country. A famous "fraternity" existed between the chapter of Le Puy and that of Gerona in Catalonia. The efforts of M. Rochet to establish his contention, that this "fraternity" dated from the time of Charlemagne, have been fruitless; M. Coulet has proved that the earliest document in which it is mentioned dates only from 1470, and he supposes that at this date the chapter of Gerona, in order to escape the financial thraldom which bound it, like so many other Catalonian Churches, to the chapter of Le Puy, alleged its "fraternity" involving its equality — with the Church of Le Puy. In 1479 and in 1481 Pierre Bouvier, a canon of Le Puy, came to Gerona, when the canons invoked against him certain legends according to which Charlemagne had taken Gerona, rebuilt its cathedral, given it a canon of Le Puy for a bishop, and established a fraternity between chapters of Gerona and Le Puy. In support of these legends they appealed to the Office which they chanted for the feast of Charlemagne — an Office, dating from 1345, but in which they had recently inserted these tales of the Church of LePuy. In 1484 Sixtus IV prohibited the use of this Office, whereupon there appeared at Gerona the "Tractatus de captione Gerunde", which reaffirmed the Gerona legends about the fraternity with Le Puy. Down to the last days of the old regime the two chapters frequently exchanged courtesies; canons of Le Puy passing through Gerona and canons of Gerona passing through Le Puy enjoyed special privileges. In 1883 the removal by the Bishop of Gerona of the statue of Charlemagne, which stood in that cathedral, marked the definitive collapse of the whole fabric of legends out of which the hermandad between Le Puy and Gerona had grown.

TCP

I don't have much to add here, but Sandri specifically says "pilgrimages" and Lourdes and Le Puy-en-Velay are both Marian pilgrimage sites (with associated visions). The only likely candidate site in Switzerland is Einsiedeln (which has a famous black madonna and was supposed to be consecrated by a vision of Jesus himself) - it is the major Swiss Marian pilgrimage site. It is NOT in Unterwalden - it is however about 10 miles from the Unterwalden border, so it is "in the neighbourhood." I also noticed that you can draw a straight line between Lourdes, Puy and Unterwalden - it would be interesting to plot the exact line if anyone has that capability.

Yes, I know it's stretching, but if SP is interested I want to at least provide some tidbits.

Hi Caelum,

Thanks for the reply.



The Marian connection is exactly what I was looking at myself. Einsiedeln is very interesting in the context of recurrent PoS themes. Given the attempts by the 'PoS' (?) to link itself to BMadonnas I'd suggest that it really isn't a stretch at all. Sandri had some kind of subtext in mind, simply because it wasn't actually a genuine 'historical' PoS pilgrimage site IMHO.

It would be interesting, to me at least, to know if this is pure Sandri or had an earlier 'airing'.

Regards,

Spartacus

Hi,

I'd just like to thank everybody for contributing, and apologize for my lack of contribution today. I've had a very busy day

Thanks again...

Regards,

Spartacus

I just wish they didn't bend over backwards suggesting that the Black Madonnas represent Mary Magdalene and/or Isis. Either that was their entire raison d'être or they missed the whole point entirely (but if the latter, whose point did they miss?). To do so ignores the culture and the context from which the Black Madonnas came.

TCP

http://www.green-man-of-cercles.org/art ... sirens.pdf

Great article Tina. What an interesting place:



They'll just put a Starbucks anywhere won't they?





I've really missed your regular contributions. I hope all is well!

Great article Tingra

Enoch XV-XVI, "From the day of...the slaughter and destruction of the giant Nephilim, the mighty ones of the earth, the great famous ones, the spirits that have gone out from their souls as from the flesh will destroy without judgment." Even the mortal women who are their mothers are cursed to become sirens and demonesses.


Starbucks is right ....Great article Tingra

Are those Sirens?
the one with the crown

mermaid, in folklore, sea-dwelling creature commonly represented as having the head and body of a woman and a fishtail instead of legs. Belief in mermaids, and in their counterpart, mermen, has existed since earliest times. They are often described as having great beauty and charm, which they use to lure sailors to their deaths (see Siren). In some legends they assumed human shape and married mortals (see Mélusine).

A mermaid is a mythological aquatic creature that is half human, half aquatic creature (e.g. a fish or dolphin). Various cultures throughout the world have similar figures. The word is a compound of mere, the Old English word for "sea," and maid, which has retained its original sense.

thanks to Paddy and Sheila
the dolphin
the angel with the shell stands on the dolphin's head

Oh I am still around, just really busy with work and social things and I have been away to Prague for a bit, I still pop in from time to time and try to keep up with everything that’s going on. ......good to know that not everyone hates me

What do you think of the Priory of Sion Caelum?

Is it a powerful society that has existed in the shadows for over 900 years and guards great historical secrets?

Was it a hoax invented in 1956 by Pierre Plantard and a handful of others?

Is it part hoax and part genuine….a modern creation that has incorporated traditions and historical information inherited from older groups, or a front organisation set up by other more secretive societies to enable them to carry out certain activities in the public arena?

How important a roll did Plantard play in the society given his alleged affiliations with two presidents?

I am not sure if all of them have been debunked yet, this connection is a one I came across recently.

According to Guy Patton…..
One of Mitterrand’s closest friends, who was named as executor of the former presidents will after his death in 1996 was Andre Rousselet, who’s adopted daughter was married to the cousin of Pierre Plantards cousin Francois. Mitterrand’s sister in law was the niece of Eugene Deloncle, who was a close friend of Francois Plantard.

Or this one….

According to Plantards first wife, Anne Lea Histler, writing in 1964, it was he who, using the pseudonym of “way” had, with Andre Malraux and Michel Debre, controlled the committees of public safety. Malraux and Debre were given cabinet positions in de Gaulle’s new government and it was Plantards task of disbanding the committees once the job was done.

Well then let me ask you this Tingra, Why you're interest now in the Priory of Sion when before you're attitude towards secret societies were basically grown men playing dress-ups? What's changed? and you're obviously reading up on it, now, Why?

Do i need a reason to comment or ask a question?

I am really not interested in politics, I have an interest in the Priory of Sion because its something that keeps cropping up in things I AM interested in so I do know a little bit about it. As for my attitude towards secret societies! Yes I do think that most of them are a load of bunk but I also know that there are some that aren’t, unless they are pertinent to something I am researching I don’t bother with them and don’t know enough about any of them to comment on here…..each to their own.

Edited to add....

I know its something that interests you, so what is your opinion?
and these arent loaded questions if thats what you think i am genuinely interested in what people think and how they percieve things.

Hi Tingra,

Tingra wrote:



I'm not Caelum but...

Tingra wrote:



I haven't 'Masters of Deception' to hand, but AFAIK (off the top of my head) Jean Plantard (known as Yannick to his friends) married Chantal Rousselet in April 1964 (?). Wasn't Yannick the son of Francois? Francois and Deloncle worked together as engineers and were both members of the Societe Anonyme des Chantiers et Ateliers de St Nazaire.

Tingra wrote:



The 1958 newspaper articles that associate Plantard (Captain Way) with de Gaulle and the CPS are extremely interesting IMHO...

Regards,

Spartacus

I love your latest comment Tingra on that connection between John and Sion
Glad to see your back

I am one who thinks Plantard was quite brilliant
Roger

Shipbuilders now that is interesting

Interesting Rodger Merci'

I was just curious. As to your questions, do you have a few weeks?

Hi Roger,

Roger wrote:



Exactly. And dockyards are almost always a hotbed of organised criminal activity. The pursuit of personnal profit always plays a part...and French organised crime has, generally, been linked with...

Roger wrote:



Is it still possible to glean this wealth of information?

Regards,

Spartacus

Tina, I certainly think at this point that it was a 1956 invention, but I'm not sure if hoax is entirely the correct term for it - more like a modern fable with some potential end purpose(s).

This is the most difficult part:

"Is it part hoax and part genuine….a modern creation that has incorporated traditions and historical information inherited from older groups, or a front organisation set up by other more secretive societies to enable them to carry out certain activities in the public arena?"

Certainly traditions and historical information have been used, but I'm still not sure to what extent if any this was "secret" knowledge. I am also very unclear as to the extent that background organizations are/were involved, but I can certainly entertain the possibility easily.

My imagination is still somewhat captured by what to me seems like a huge difference between Plantard and Cherisey. The latter at the very least seems steeped in myth and history and at times seems as if he actually knows hidden facts.

Whether the PoS has ANYTHING to do with RLC is still to me a question, but if forced, I would say no.

Like many of us, I would have to say that I have a twin fascination - the ongoing mysteries of RLC and its cognates, but also the reasons/nature of the modern fable.

yep, that just about sums up how i see it as well

Its also strange how many times RLC crops up out of the blue when you least expect it, for instance I was reading something today about Robert Mackness in conjunction with a conversation I was having about the Massacre at Oradour which I hadn’t heard about before and after a couple of google searches up it popped ……so I have now, eventually, ordered the “Web of Gold”

Mackness waited until everyone who could corroborate his story was dead and then wrote his book

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/oradour-s ... index.html

he is also responsible for introducing the continental quilt to Britain as the founder of slumberdown

Yep, that was a fascinating little side story - I've read Web of Gold, Masters of Deception and Oradour Massacre and they definitely opened up a whole new mysterious light on things (I think... ). Doesn't Sheila live thereabouts?

I have just realised that Sheila posted something about this recently
http://www.andrewgough.co.uk/forum/view ... 8&start=50

Hi Tim,

Tim wrote:



But do 'they' bend over backwards? Outside of the Serpent Rouge reference how many others times have 'they' suggested BM represent MM and/or Isis?

Regards,

Spartacus