Arcadia Discussion Zone

Got it, thanks. Did you read the second link I sent to Lov? You might like it.

TCP

unfortunatly, my quote only said that the Templars owned Balantrodach, of the Parish of Temple, which we all know is very close to Roslin, but I hadn't mentioned a Roslin connection.

OMG!!! you guys and gals are hittin this girl with too much good stuff
Yikes I love it

Sheila you a gentle soul and your kindness to animals ...a gift
Someone wise told me we never die we just move on


TCP that was a GREAT link

Roger read what wayward posted I'm beginning to think you have Templaritis

Roger


Wayward was talking about
Temple is a village and Parish in Midlothian, Scotland. Situated to the south of Edinburgh, the village lies on the east bank of the River South-Esk.

Historically the Parish of Temple was divided into three portions, the ancient parish of Clerkington, and the Chapelries of Moorfoot and Balantrodach. Clerkington was a parsonage held by the Monks of Newbattle Abbey, Moorfoot was a chapelry founded by Monks from the same institution. Balantrodach on the other hand, was a Chapelry of the Knights Templar.

In 1127, Hugues de Payens, the first Grand Master met with David I in Scotland, and was granted the lands of Balantrodach. In 1129, the Council of Troyes formally recognized the Order. Balantrodach became their principal Templar seat and Preceptory in Scotland until the suppression of the order between 1307 and 1312.

"Legend has it that treasure of the Knights Templar was removed secretly from Paris, to be hidden in Temple. A local legend states: 'Twixt the oak and the elm tree/You will find buried the millions free.' French legends about the Templar treasure apparently also state that the treasure was taken to Scotland, with the knights landing on the Isle of May, the first island they would encounter in the Firth of Forth. Geographically, this would take them to the mouth of the river Esk, which could take them on to Rosslyn..."[1]

Lots of legends and oral traditions
my tour guide at Rosslyn said Scotland was considered a possible Headquarters for the Templars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balantrodach

Yes, two of them turned up at the Inquest in 1309 to give testimony AGAINST the Templars.

TCP

Scotland is bigger than Rosslyn you know. Also tour guides do have a habit of exaggerating the truth ( otherwise they might find themselves out of a job ). As far as I'm aware, there is nothing to connect the Templars to Rosslyn Chapel ( even the present Earl of Rosslyn's family try to distance themselves from the myth ).
Regards
Nic

Nic


How true How true I hear you on that one

There is some history near Rosslyn
Historically the Parish of Temple was divided into three portions, the ancient parish of Clerkington, and the Chapelries of Moorfoot and Balantrodach. Clerkington was a parsonage held by the Monks of Newbattle Abbey, Moorfoot was a chapelry founded by Monks from the same institution. Balantrodach on the other hand, was a Chapelry of the Knights Templar.

In 1127, Hugues de Payens, the first Grand Master met with David I in Scotland, and was granted the lands of Balantrodach. In 1129, the Council of Troyes formally recognized the Order. Balantrodach became their principal Templar seat and Preceptory in Scotland until the suppression of the order between 1307 and 1312.

Nic what about Balantrodach?...I did read Templars were quite mean to a widow and got booted out
My tour guide didn't say Rosslyn was the headquarters just that Scotland was their headquarters
She was just telling the legends of the people
I want to hear all the people legends and myths ...she filled my ears

St Clair was a Crusader ...in the Crusades
I know not a Templar but he was a Crusader
Rosslyn does have a connection to Scottish Rite Freemasonry

So what was the Paris Temple then, if not their headquarters?

By the way, the stories about the St. Clairs holding Rosslyn in 1127 are just that - stories. There was a Sinclair family established at Herdmanston by that time that may or may not have been related to the Rosslyn family of the same surname. The St. Clair who first acquired Rosslyn (by marriage to its heiress, Amecia de Roskelyn or Roscelin) was himself a Norman immigrant and did not marry the heiress until 1280.

TCP

What connection would that be Lov?

Andrew Sinclair stands by the myth (and he'll deny it's anything of the sort) !

Not sure about that. The "Scottish Rite" is about as Scottish as Jean-Luc Chaumiel. But there is a Masonic Lodge in the village of Roslin (pronounced RoZZlin btw) and is affiliated to the Grand Lodge of Scotland. http://pglm.co.uk/index.php?CATEGORY=H- ... ir+No.+606

RS

My goodness RS ..
my goodness are you reading my mind man
Rosslyn is a stone mason gone wild
the mason's marks still are on the walls there
an apprentice learned the secret signs and passwords and then a master
In Scotland the guilds of masons developed into incorporations during King Stewart who supported them
He gave money to every mason and grandmaster mason who regulated them
Schaw is looked at as the founding father of modern Freemasonry in 1598
well Freemasons take on untrained men to its organization in the 1600's
and in 1717 in Edinburgh....33 lodges voted William St Clair elected First Grand Master
he is looked on as the hereditary Grand Masters Mason of Scotland due to a charter in 1441 by King James II
that charter was destroyed in a fire but there are other charters from 1601 that is recognized
pg 144 of Turnbulls book
RS ...I got a book by Michael Turnbull Rosslyn Chapel Revealed
I hope he is a good source... Nic what do you think?
Anyway what interest me is the consecration stones of Rosslyn
its on page 69 there is a picture of one of them on the southside of the ruined west transept
there are three dates attributed to them
Kennedy 1440 Bishop of St Andrews
Graham 1466
or James Stewart 1497

the consecration stones are still visible to this day carved into the stones and anointed with holy oil


that symbol on that consecration stone
is



the cross crosslet
it is on heraldry
this interested me because the cross crosslet is on my families heraldry
it means that your family participated in the Crusades

and Henry St Clair went on the First Crusade in 1095 and participated in the Battle of Antioch
Another connection to the Crusades is
perhaps you can comment on Catherine St Clair who some chroniclers say married Hugues de Payens
A biography of Hugues de Payen by Thierry Leroy[3] identifies his wife and the mother of his children as Elizabeth de Chappes. The book draws its information on the marriage from local church cartularies dealing chiefly with the disposition of the Grand Master's properties, the earliest alluding to Elizabeth as his wife in 1113 and others spanning Payen's lifetime, the period following his death and lastly her own death in 1170.

Hughes a Frankish knight from the Champagne region, was the co-founder and first Grand Master of the Knights Templar. With Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, he created the Latin Rule, the code of behavior for the Order.

I always here about how the Templars couldn't marry and yet Hughes looks like he was married
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugues_de_Payens

So does Niven Sinclair. That doesn't make them right. I've watched those two in action for years - through several successive revisions of the Sinclair family narrative in the wake of "inconvenient truths". They're shameless.

TCP

Lov, maybe you should read Robert L. D. Cooper's Cracking the Freemasons code: the truth about Solomon's Key and the Brotherhood. The "charter" in question (a) had no date, (b) did not mention James II, and (c) the words "Grand Master" and "hereditary" did not appear in it. Which is why William Sinclair in the 1630s was unsuccessful in pressing his "claim" and was turned down not only by the Scottish Master of Works, Sir Anthony Alexander, but by the king himself, Charles I, who flat-out denied that any such hereditary charge had ever been given. This was before said charter was destroyed.

Here's a link if you want to check it out:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Qxbo4V9NAW8C&lpg=PA33&ots=IpAOqU9ylz&dq=1441%20charter%20sinclair%20grand%20master%20masons&pg=PA32#v=onepage&q=1441%20charter%20sinclair%20grand%20master%20masons&f=false



Who on earth told you that?



"Chroniclers" for the Sinclair family, most of recent vintage and a few who happened to be named Sinclair themselves.



Exactly.



Hugues de Payens became Grand Master of the Temple long before the Rule was written or implemented. Married men could join the order for specified periods of time; they could not become "professed" brothers. Unmarried men who joined could not subsequently marry without leaving the order.

TCP

Who told you that

This is one source but other heraldry sources said so too So there smarty pants
Heraldry
http://www.heraldryandcrests.com/heraldic_symbols.htm

and why not when you look at the Jerusalem Cross
there are four crosses ...that was the Crusades right


It also means
with four accompanying crosses pointing in four directions. This symbol is traditionally thought to represent the message of the cross going out to the four corners of the earth
Also the four fold mystery

but I found it used much earlier than the crusades to my surprise frankly
and by the craziest of fellos
by King OFFA of Mercia
who would of thunk

and there is more coincidences guys maybe you can help me out with this puzzle
King Offa has two crosses there a cross crosslet and a cross floritene or rossette
there is another special cross at Rosslyn connected to Sinclair

http://shopping.erol.co.uk/product/Offa-Cross-Crosslet-Silver-Hammered-Saxon-Penny-009127.html

Does anybody know why King Offa used the Cross Crosslet? Theories?

are the angels a cross crosslet

Roger

Actually I understand where you are coming from there Roger
I did do Research Roger
I went to Rosslyn and Edinburgh ...I visited and did the leg work
and I did the research and read the books
give me a wee bit of credit here ole chap

yes Turnbull talks about those quite mean ENGLISH Templars ...who treated the widow quite shabbily
and if I was Sinclair I would have kicked them out too ...you see Rodger not all Templars were angels

There was also another trial at Holyrood Abbey December 1309 both of the Knights were English
the trial was having trouble being conducted because of the DAILY ATTACKS BY ROBERT the BRUCE
the trial was held before Master John de Soleure...a chaplain to Pope ClementV and William Lamberton bishop of St Andrew
pg 150 Turnbull
These are troubling times ...King Edward and the Bruce are fighting

English Templars tried in Scotland by the Pope which is being attacked by The excommunicated Robert the Bruce


So yes the English Templars were no friends to the Sinclairs
in fact the English Templars fought with their King Edward against William Wallace

Don't worry Rodger ...I'm not going to say Templars....I'll say Crusaders ...

It's entirely false. Some of the other descriptions of styles of crosses are laughable. I wouldn't expect much better from a heraldry mill, however. They'll sell anything to anybody.



Obviously someone has their crosses confused - they're not the same thing. Even a Jerusalem Cross on coat armory isn't necessarily indicative of the Crusades.



Considering he lived a good three centuries before the First Crusade, shouldn't that have been your first clue that there was something terribly wrong?



He was Christian?

TCP

Oh yes TCP he was a Christian
A Celtic Christian ...a Celtic Catholic

there is a wee connection with King Offa to the Shurburgh Monument believe it or not

Offa was a Saxon, Lov. And he lived after the Synod of Whitby, so not a Celtic Christian, but a Roman Catholic.

TCP

Lov., my sergeants have done the legwork for me (thanks lads), but to reiterate, my question to you was your assertation regarding SCOTTISH RITE FREEMASONRY......to which Pilrig has refuted, and which you have sidestepped.

I've quite a respect for Andrew Sinclair, he's an eloquent guy. One of the finest talks I've heard was by him on the subject of Wolfram's Parzival . Have to say his Rosslyn Chapel / Templar connection claims are untenable, and besides, he was rather put down by Robert Cooper in the latter's Rosslyn Hoax book.

Mr Turnbull tends to be skeptical about the Sinclarian/Knight & Lomas claims about Rosslyn Chapel.

RS

I didn't mean to side step you here RS ...because you have a good point
I'm writing as fast as I can
I'm not a mason so all these organizations do get confusing and I like the questions so I can be accurate
I can edit my articles to correct them so hey give me a good argument here
I think I know where your heading here
Your arguing my saying Scottish Rite Freemasonry
would it make everybody happy if I said Freemasonry in America verses Scottish Rite

as I read up on Scottish Rite there is no connection to the Lodge of Killwinning to Scottish Rite
your point is there is a difference between Scottish Rite Freemasonry and Scottish Freemasonry

I can correct that by editing it and appreciate the insight
This charter is of importance


A French trader, by the name of Estienne Morin, had been involved in high degree Masonry in Bordeaux since 1744 and, in 1747, founded an "Ecossais" lodge (Scots Masters Lodge) in the city of Le Cap Français, on the north coast of the French colony of Saint-Domingue (now Haiti). Over the next decade, high degree Freemasonry continued to spread to the Western hemisphere as the high degree lodge at Bordeaux warranted or recognized seven Ecossais lodges there. In Paris in the year 1761, a Patent was issued to Estienne Morin, dated 27 August, creating him "Grand Inspector for all parts of the New World." This Patent was signed by officials of the Grand Lodge at Paris and appears to have originally granted him power over the craft lodges only, and not over the high, or "Ecossais", degree lodges. Later copies of this Patent appear to have been embellished, probably by Morin, to improve his position over the high degree lodges in the West Indies.

Does anybody know why Morin called his lodge "Scots Masters Lodge"?
perhaps he did it in reference to Scotland's history of Freemasonry of which the St Clair's participated

Turnbull says St Clair and their ancestors had been hereditary masons of Scotland
by charters 1601 and 1628 by the "Freemasons of Scotland"

"Sir William's descendants remained close relationship with Scottish freemasonry"

In the year 1736 The Grand Lodge of Scottish Freemasonry was formed the members of Canongate Lodge Kilwinning decided to invite Sir William St Clair







Offa was a Christian king, but came into conflict with the Church, and in particular with Jaenberht, the Archbishop of Canterbury. Offa managed to persuade Pope Adrian I to divide the archdiocese of Canterbury in two, creating a new archdiocese of Lichfield

isn't that where Shurbough Monument is Lichfield

Lichfield ....that is home of St Chad
Chad's early life is that he was a student of Aidan at the Celtic monastery at Lindisfarne.
Chad died on 2 March 672, and was buried at the Church of Saint Mary which later became part of the cathedral at Lichfield.

there are lots of stories about Offa and Charlemagne and Pope Adrian I

there is the
The Vitae duorum Offarum "The lives of the two Offas" is a literary history written in the mid-thirteenth century, apparently by the St Albans monk Matthew Paris.

I just thought it interesting Offa used the Cross Crosslet on his coin

Indeed he was, but I'll spot him a point or two for eloquence.

TCP

You're getting there Lov.The Ancient and Accepted Rite is neither Scottish, nor Craft Freemasonry. However, the AAR does require the candidate to hold Craft Masonry degrees. The French Rite of Perfection is the basis for the AAR. Beware of any American internet sites on the AAR, they are a law unto themselves.
The French Rite of Perfection is of interest because of its professed membership and modus operandi in the 18/19th centuries, particularly in Europe.