Jean-Luc Chaumeil

Eginolf · **Posted:** 13 May 2011 4:56 am

BULLDOGNIC wrote:

A lime tree is mentioned in the accident, why would PdC be so specific? Personally I think the whole story is just another way of fixating the Méridien / Rose Ligne into the story.

Methinx 2.
In case PdC would have lost a girlfriend in a car accident, Plantard would have mentioned that to LBL, at least once.

paddy · **Joined:** 01 Sep 2010 7:28 pm **Posts:** 165

Spartacus Paraclete wrote:

Isn't there another version of the Roseline 'death'?

Quote:

Roseline was killed whilst working as a double on the Television film La beauté sur la terre (1968), a film that also starred Philippe de Chérisey under his stage name of Amédée

Regards,

Spartacus

No, it's not a different version, actually. The filming is described in the previous pages of the same chapter of "Circuit". Roseline has been hired as a double for the star who, the producer's just discovered, can't swim, and there's a major scene where the heroine falls into the water. Filming takes place by a lake near Rodez. On 6 August, the actors have the afternoon off because the cabin which was scheduled to be filmed burning down the next day has got burned down a day too early. Charlot and Roseline meet up in Rodez in the evening.

Paddy

Spartacus Paraclete · **Joined:** 30 Dec 2009 12:04 pm **Posts:** 1906

Hi Paddy,

SP wrote:

Quote:

Isn't there another version of the Roseline 'death'?

Quote:

Roseline was killed whilst working as a double on the Television film La beauté sur la terre (1968), a film that also starred Philippe de Chérisey under his stage name of Amédée

Paddy wrote:

Quote:

No, it's not a different version, actually. The filming is described in the previous pages of the same chapter of "Circuit". Roseline has been hired as a double for the star who, the producer's just discovered, can't swim, and there's a major scene where the heroine falls into the water.

'Roseline' supposedly dies (by drowning) in a movie, and then by car accident in a novel, on the 6th August, Feast of the Transfiguration, when grapes are blessed. IF she is a fictional character, there are two fictional deaths...Is there a description of flames or fire in the second death, by car accident?

Perhaps the place to began the search for a 'real' 'Roseline' is 'La beauté sur la terre' (directed by Pierre Cardinal). Shouldn't we be able to 'see' her in the appropriate scenes?..

Here's a 'taster':

http://www.ina.fr/video/CPF86615962/la-beaute-sur-la-terre.fr.html

Regards,

Spartacus

paddy · **Joined:** 01 Sep 2010 7:28 pm **Posts:** 165

Spartacus Paraclete wrote:

Hi Paddy,

SP wrote:

Quote:

Isn't there another version of the Roseline 'death'?

Quote:

Roseline was killed whilst working as a double on the Television film La beauté sur la terre (1968), a film that also starred Philippe de Chérisey under his stage name of Amédée

Paddy wrote:

Quote:

No, it's not a different version, actually. The filming is described in the previous pages of the same chapter of "Circuit". Roseline has been hired as a double for the star who, the producer's just discovered, can't swim, and there's a major scene where the heroine falls into the water.

'Roseline' supposedly dies (by drowning) in a movie, and then by car accident in a novel, on the 6th August, Feast of the Transfiguration, when grapes are blessed. IF she is a fictional character, there are two fictional deaths...Is there a description of flames or fire in the second death, by car accident?

Perhaps the place to began the search for a 'real' 'Roseline' is 'La beauté sur la terre' (directed by Pierre Cardinal). Shouldn't we be able to 'see' her in the appropriate scenes?..

Here's a 'taster':

http://www.ina.fr/video/CPF86615962/la-beaute-sur-la-terre.fr.html

Regards,

Spartacus

I'm not sure if the character Roseline was doubling for dies by drowning in the film. I didn't mean to imply that. It's not clear from the references in "Circuit" if La Beaute actually meets her death in the water, just that there's a scene where she falls in, and the actress playing the part couldn't swim. So Roseline was hired as a double. Unfortunately, I haven't read Ramuz's novel or seen the film to be sure.
But I agree checking the film out and the casting credits would be very worthwhile.

Paddy

Spartacus Paraclete · **Joined:** 30 Dec 2009 12:04 pm **Posts:** 1906

Hi Paddy,

Paddy wrote:

Quote:

I'm not sure if the character Roseline was doubling for dies by drowning in the film or novel. I didn't mean to imply that. It's not clear from the references in "Circuit". Unfortunately, I haven't read Ramuz's novel or seen the film to be sure.
But I agree checking the film out and the casting credits would be very worthwhile.

Aha. Ok. I get you now...it was too good to be true!

This is a wild stab...but I think there was an actress in La beauté sur la terre named Eva Silverberg [sic?], who AFAIK never appeared in any other movie...

Regards,

Spartacus

Sheila · **Posted:** 13 May 2011 1:28 pm

paddy · **Joined:** 01 Sep 2010 7:28 pm **Posts:** 165

Spartacus Paraclete wrote:

Perhaps the place to began the search for a 'real' 'Roseline' is 'La beauté sur la terre' (directed by Pierre Cardinal). Shouldn't we be able to 'see' her in the appropriate scenes?..

Here's a 'taster':

http://www.ina.fr/video/CPF86615962/la-beaute-sur-la-terre.fr.html

Regards,

Spartacus

I’m not very confident that we’ll see very much of “Roseline” as la Beauté’s double in the film.
But then I suppose that’s true of doubles in most films, unless there’s a serious continuity error.

In “Circuit” (p. 33), Pierre Cardinal interviews Roseline and tells her:

“P. CARDINAL: [...] En fait, le rôle de la Beauté a été confié a une comédienne dont je viens d’apprendre qu’elle ne savait pas nager. Elle garde le rôle, le vôtre se limitant a trébucher pour elle de loin, ou de dos, ou dans les miroitements du soleil parmi l’eau et les branches. On ne vous demandera donc même pas d’être “naturelle” , comme on dit, mais d’avoir l’air d’une comédienne qui fait semblant d’être naturelle.”

[“P. CARDINAL: [...] As a matter of fact, the part of la Beauté has been given to an actress, who, I’ve just learnt, can't swim. She’s keeping the part, yours is limited to tripping up for her in the distance, or from the back, or in the sun sparkling on the water and between branches. So we won’t be asking you to be “natural”, as we say, but just to look like an actress who’s pretending to be natural.”]

Paddy

Spartacus Paraclete · **Joined:** 30 Dec 2009 12:04 pm **Posts:** 1906

Hi Paddy,

When you get a chance, check your PM.

Regards,

Spartacus

rain · **Posted:** 14 May 2011 12:40 am

Sheila wrote:

:D

So by this smile are you trying to suggest it was Eva Silverberg that was the close friend of de Cherisey whom died and is the motivation for his search.
Chaumeil is the one whom suggests that the reason is a close friend (from memory) in his book but that is the only instance I've seen the theory.

rain · **Posted:** 14 May 2011 12:43 am

BULLDOGNIC wrote:

Yep sorry Sheila. Thanks as well Paddy for the Circuit translation.
A lime tree is mentioned in the accident, why would PdC be so specific? Personally I think the whole story is just another way of fixating the Méridien / Rose Ligne into the story. Is that not possibly the reason that St Martial is linked?
Regards
Nic

Do you understand what "Circuit" Le Chariot is trying to say i.e. what the chariot is why St Martial is linked?

Quote:

BULLDOGNIC wrote:
Chaumeil constantly relies on the Dagobert Parchment talking about PdC's loved one being killed "La Mort", and the phrase ""My dear Roseline, who died on 6 August 1967, the feast of the Transfiguration, while leaving the zero meridian by car."
I was wondering, has anyone checked the local papers for someone dying in a car crash near RLB, we have the day and the year so it should be possible to verify.
Any ideas people, were l'Independant or La Depeche or even Midi Libre around in 1967 as surely they would have covered a fatal car crash? I seem to remember someone posting a link to one of these papers back catalogue.
Regards
Nic

I think the road accident may have happened (if it happened) closer to Rodez than RLB.

It’s described in “Circuit” chapter VII (“Le Chariot”).

6 August 1967. Charlot meets Roseline in the evening near Rodez cathedral. Roseline drives. “Elle prend la 88 de Rodez à Alby[sic], passe devant la maison où fut perpétrée jadis l’abominable affaire Fualdès, et s’engage dans la departementale 574 de Saint-Martial. On passe sans ralentir devant N.D. de Ceignac.”

[“She takes the 88 Rodez to Albi, passes in front of the house where long ago the abominable Fualdès affair was perpetrated, and turns into the “departementale 574” from Saint-Martial. They pass without slowing down in front of N.D. de Ceignac.”]

(I think they are heading south to the hotel near the viaduct at Viaur where they are staying. But I do not understand the reference to the “departementale 574 de Saint-Martial”, which I can’t find anywhere near N.D. de Ceignac.)

Around midnight, Roseline starts to feel sleepy and the car starts wandering across the white line down the middle of the road. Suddenly, a fire-engine comes up behind them with its siren blaring.
“LA VOITURE DE POMPIERS: Pain-pont pain-pont pain-pont pain-pont pain-pont”

Roseline hits a humpback [hogback] in the road and loses control of the car which goes off the road and into a tree (a lime-tree). Charlot manages to get out and crawl to a farmhouse nearby. The farmer’s wife calls an ambulance and Charlot is taken to the hospital at Rodez. When he comes round, he asks where Roseline is, and is told that she has died.

“CHARLOT: Auf der Strasse steht ein Lindenbaum/Das hab’ ich zum ersten mal im Schlaf geruht/Unter den Lindenbaum.”

Paddy

Last edited by paddy on 12 May 2011 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Also I too want to say thank-you Paddy for putting a translation, I really appreciate it, I love reading your posts because having the direct and proper translations there help me to understand what I'm reading. I normally google or bing it or use my paltry French which is so different from the actual translation, for instance - the bathroom in rennes from LVLC is about my level.

paddy · **Joined:** 01 Sep 2010 7:28 pm **Posts:** 165

rain wrote:

Do you understand what "Circuit" Le Chariot is trying to say i.e. what the chariot is why St Martial is linked?

Quote:

BULLDOGNIC wrote:
Chaumeil constantly relies on the Dagobert Parchment talking about PdC's loved one being killed "La Mort", and the phrase ""My dear Roseline, who died on 6 August 1967, the feast of the Transfiguration, while leaving the zero meridian by car."
I was wondering, has anyone checked the local papers for someone dying in a car crash near RLB, we have the day and the year so it should be possible to verify.
Any ideas people, were l'Independant or La Depeche or even Midi Libre around in 1967 as surely they would have covered a fatal car crash? I seem to remember someone posting a link to one of these papers back catalogue.
Regards
Nic

:!:

Also I too want to say thank-you Paddy for putting a translation, I really appreciate it, I love reading your posts because having the direct and proper translations there help me to understand what I'm reading. I normally google or bing it or use my paltry French which is so different from the actual translation, for instance - the bathroom in rennes from LVLC is about my level.

Thanks for that Rain, I really appreciate that. But please do check my translations, as I’m not bilingual.

As regards Le Chariot, the chapter titles of “Circuit” are of course named after the Tarot trumps, so chapter VII = Trump VII, The Chariot.
It’s a very appropriate title because of the car crash, and because PdC specifically mentions that Roseline’s car is a “deux chevaux”, literally “two horses”, i.e. a 2CV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV

But I'm sure there's much more to it than that.

I’ve added another extract from the chapter about the crash, which mentions newspapers, which were of interest to Nic.

“Ce que faisait une voiture de pompiers en pleine campagne à cette heure-ci, quelle urgence avait extrait cette arche d’alliance hors du tabernacle d’assignation, on ne le saura jamais. Les journeaux n’y ont fait aucune allusion. Toujours est-il qu’a deux reprises la deux chevaux outrepasse la ligne jaune qui vire au bleue électrique; elle recontre un dos d’âne où se brise le dos de Roseline, bondit sur ce tremplin et s’engage à travers champs”.
(“Circuit”, chapter VII (“Le Chariot”), p. 35.)

[“What a fire-engine was doing in the middle of the countryside at that hour, what emergency had brought that Ark of the Covenant out of the Tent of Meeting, we will never know. The newspapers made no reference to it. The fact remains that on two occasions the 2 CV crossed over the yellow line, which turned electric blue. It struck a humpback [hogsback], breaking Roseline’s back, bounced on this springboard, and turned across country.”]

Paddy

rain · **Posted:** 14 May 2011 1:26 pm

I would assume de Cherisey used the tarot of marseilles.
Here is a pic yep, it's got the two horses.

paddy · **Joined:** 01 Sep 2010 7:28 pm **Posts:** 165

1 Chronicles 28: 11-18

Then David gave to Solomon, his son ...gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubim, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord.

BULLDOGNIC · **Joined:** 24 Apr 2008 2:43 pm **Posts:** 1879

Quote:

Do you understand what "Circuit" Le Chariot is trying to say i.e. what the chariot is why St Martial is linked?

Paddy answered my questions about Le Chariot in his post above, thanks for that

I've only got about 15 pages of 131 scanned from Circuit. Does anyone have a link to the rest, or is it all contained within a more recent book? I've never come across a translation of it all but I'd still like the original for reference if it's available anywhere. The bits I have concern la Dalle de Blanchefort and a bit of "L'Alibi D'O".
Regards
Nic
Edited to add :-
I noticed that the Rennes Group did a translation of Circuit, but only a couple of chapters are online. Anyone saved the rest?

Sheila · **Posted:** 15 May 2011 9:22 am

21/12/67

La cathédrale est voisine du tilleul ; sous son porche une plaque de marbre rappelle que depuis un siècle trois anciens futurs papes en ont franchi le seuil.
« A nous deux, supputent Anne et Charlot, c’est une chance sur cent trente -huit mille que nous avons de coiffer la tiare et d’associer un jour, qui sait, papesse et sous-pape de sécurité » Or, passant derrière le bâtiment, voilà que Charlot s’arrête comme hypnotisé. Anne voit une muraille de pierre rouge, un escalier large menant à une porte condamnée où le lichen sur la rampe, l’herbe sur les marches, prouvent que l’on n’est pas, depuis belle lurette, passé par là.

UNE VOITURE DE POMPIERS – Pain-pont pain-pont pain-pont pain-pont pain-pont

ANNE –Tu dors ?

CHARLOT – Je suis venu ici avec Roseline.

ANNE – Ça m’aurait étonné, celle là, qu’elle ne vienne pas sur le tapis.

CHARLOT – Je l’ai vue ici pour la dernière fois : les pompiers, le mur, les couleurs, la porte, tout y est.

ANNE – C’est à Rodez que tu l’as vue pour la dernière fois, merde, sur la place Emma Calvé.

CHARLOT – Et bien ils ont transféré la place Emma Calvé depuis la Cathédrale de Rodez jusqu’ici.

ANNE – Qui « ils » ?

CHARLOT – Ceux qui s’occupent de nous depuis si longtemps.

paddy · **Joined:** 01 Sep 2010 7:28 pm **Posts:** 165

“And suddenly the memory returns. The taste was that of the little crumb of madeleine which on Sunday mornings at Combray (because on those mornings I did not go out before church-time), when I went to say good day to her in her bedroom, my aunt Léonie used to give me, dipping it first in her own cup of real or of lime-flower tea.”

Sheila · **Posted:** 15 May 2011 11:06 am

..." le tilleul qui fait dormir"

the Benzodiazepine molecule.

paddy · **Joined:** 01 Sep 2010 7:28 pm **Posts:** 165

“We shall meet again." "Yes: tomorrow, I think," she answered with a smile. Tomorrow! how I felt the word! Ah! she little thought, when she drew her hand away from mine. They walked down the avenue. I stood gazing after them in the moonlight. I threw myself upon the ground, and wept: I then sprang up, and ran out upon the terrace, and saw, under the shade of the linden-trees, her white dress disappearing near the garden-gate. I stretched out my arms, and she vanished.”

Goethe, "The Sorrows of Young Werther"

Sheila · **Posted:** 15 May 2011 12:20 pm

oh yes......

That the life of man is but a dream....

paddy · **Joined:** 01 Sep 2010 7:28 pm **Posts:** 165

“Un ancêtre de Roseline est bien connu des Slaves sous son titre de ‘Tzar de la forêt’ ou ‘Homme à la barbe verte’ ”

Pdc “Circuit”, vii.

[“An ancestor of Roseline is well known to the Slavs under his title of ‘Czar of the Forest’ or ‘Man with the green beard’ “]

“The chief deity of the Lithuanians was Perkunas or Perkuns, the god of thunder and lightning, whose resemblance to Zeus and Jupiter has often been pointed out. Oaks were sacred to him, and when they were cut down by the Christian missionaries, the people loudly complained that their sylvan deities were destroyed. Perpetual fires, kindled with the wood of certain oak-trees, were kept up in honour of Perkunas; if such a fire went out, it was lighted again by friction of the sacred wood. Men sacrificed to oak-trees for good crops, while women did the same to lime-trees; from which we may infer that they regarded oaks as male and lime-trees as female.”

Sir James George Frazer, “ The Golden Bough”, XV. The Worship of the Oak.

BULLDOGNIC · **Joined:** 24 Apr 2008 2:43 pm **Posts:** 1879

paddy wrote:

“Un ancêtre de Roseline est bien connu des Slaves sous son titre de ‘Tzar de la forêt’ ou ‘Homme à la barbe verte’ ”

Pdc “Circuit”, vii.

[“An ancestor of Roseline is well known to the Slavs under his title of ‘Czar of the Forest’ or ‘Man with the green beard’ “]

“The chief deity of the Lithuanians was Perkunas or Perkuns, the god of thunder and lightning, whose resemblance to Zeus and Jupiter has often been pointed out. Oaks were sacred to him, and when they were cut down by the Christian missionaries, the people loudly complained that their sylvan deities were destroyed. Perpetual fires, kindled with the wood of certain oak-trees, were kept up in honour of Perkunas; if such a fire went out, it was lighted again by friction of the sacred wood. Men sacrificed to oak-trees for good crops, while women did the same to lime-trees; from which we may infer that they regarded oaks as male and lime-trees as female.”

Sir James George Frazer, “ The Golden Bough”, XV. The Worship of the Oak

Reminds me of the discussion we had a while back about the Green Man and Cernunnos etc. This website is useful for Slavic deities.
http://www.circe-argent.com/slavic_paganism.htm
Regards
Nic

lovuian · **Posted:** 15 May 2011 4:25 pm

From your link above Paddy :mrgreen:

Lets put up a green man for Nic

The Citroën Acadiane is a small commercial vehicle derived from the Dyane and only available in left-hand drive, produced from 1978 to 1987. Production totalled 253,393. The Visa-based C15 van eventually replaced the Acadiane.

Citroen had already used the prefix AK for its light commercials, so it was an obvious pun to name the AK Dyane "Acadiane" (similar pronunciation in French). There was no connection beyond the pun with the French-speaking region of Louisiana that is home to Cajun (Acadiane) cooking.

Paddy

Quote:

As regards Le Chariot, the chapter titles of “Circuit” are of course named after the Tarot trumps, so chapter VII = Trump VII, The Chariot.
It’s a very appropriate title because of the car crash, and because PdC specifically mentions that Roseline’s car is a “deux chevaux”, literally “two horses”, i.e. a 2CV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV

But I'm sure there's much more to it than that.

lovuian · **Posted:** 15 May 2011 4:29 pm

Sheila

Quote:

..." le tilleul qui fait dormir"

the Benzodiazepine molecule.

The most common side-effects of benzodiazepines are related to their sedating and muscle-relaxing action. They include drowsiness, dizziness, and decreased alertness and concentration. Lack of coordination may result in falls and injuries, in particular, in the elderly. Another result is impairment of driving skills and increased likelihood of road traffic accidents.

lovuian · **Posted:** 15 May 2011 4:31 pm

Paddy

Quote:

Un ancêtre de Roseline est bien connu des Slaves sous son titre de ‘Tzar de la forêt’ ou ‘Homme à la barbe verte’ ”

Pdc “Circuit”, vii.

[“An ancestor of Roseline is well known to the Slavs under his title of ‘Czar of the Forest’ or ‘Man with the green beard’ “]

I know a Rosslyn and it has lots of green men through out its chapel ...been there :mrgreen:

Caelum · **Posted:** 15 May 2011 5:12 pm

Sheila wrote:

21/12/67

La cathédrale est voisine du tilleul ; sous son porche une plaque de marbre rappelle que depuis un siècle trois anciens futurs papes en ont franchi le seuil.
« A nous deux, supputent Anne et Charlot, c’est une chance sur cent trente -huit mille que nous avons de coiffer la tiare et d’associer un jour, qui sait, papesse et sous-pape de sécurité » Or, passant derrière le bâtiment, voilà que Charlot s’arrête comme hypnotisé. Anne voit une muraille de pierre rouge, un escalier large menant à une porte condamnée où le lichen sur la rampe, l’herbe sur les marches, prouvent que l’on n’est pas, depuis belle lurette, passé par là.

UNE VOITURE DE POMPIERS – Pain-pont pain-pont pain-pont pain-pont pain-pont

ANNE –Tu dors ?

CHARLOT – Je suis venu ici avec Roseline.

ANNE – Ça m’aurait étonné, celle là, qu’elle ne vienne pas sur le tapis.

CHARLOT – Je l’ai vue ici pour la dernière fois : les pompiers, le mur, les couleurs, la porte, tout y est.

ANNE – C’est à Rodez que tu l’as vue pour la dernière fois, merde, sur la place Emma Calvé.

CHARLOT – Et bien ils ont transféré la place Emma Calvé depuis la Cathédrale de Rodez jusqu’ici.

ANNE – Qui « ils » ?

CHARLOT – Ceux qui s’occupent de nous depuis si longtemps.

Tout est clair maintenant.

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Jean-Luc Chaumeil

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