Arcadia Discussion Zone

The story

The two documents weave the mystery of Bérenger Saunière into a Merovingian framework. By 1964, the mystery of Rennes-le-Château was known in France – though nowhere near the scale it is known at present. At the time, there was no mention of Merovingians. That dimension was original to and came about through the Dossiers Secrets. The second document for example claims that the secret of the Merovingian survival was known to and guarded by the Hautpoul family of Rennes-le-Château, which had entrusted this secret to Bigou, priest of the village in 1781.
Still, the return of the Merovingian kings to rule France was not original to the Dossiers Secrets. Researchers have discovered that Simone de Beauvoir wrote of an event that happened in 1934 and that involved Lionel de Roulet: “While Sartre was away I gave philosophy lessons to Lionel de Roulet, who was now living in Paris. He and a few friends had founded a so-called Merovingian Party, which advocated, by means of posters and pamphlets, the return of Chilperic’s descendants to the throne.”
Many people could thus have known about de Roulet’s interest. Exactly three decades had passed since his creation of 1934 and the deposition of the first document in 1964. We add that both groups used the same methods (pamphlets).

Seeker1: BTW, this is another aspect of the bio that Patrice gives that I find interesting & curious.

http://www.patricechaplin.com/bio.html

As a Bohemian in Paris she spent time with Jean Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir.

[snip]

The "peedox" claim that a "Merovingian Party" was started by Lionel de Roulet ... the husband of Helene de Beauvoir, who was Simone's sister, and a student of Sartre's.

Roger wrote:
As to Simone's brother-in-law, he was a right-wing extremist (at least I'd classify him as a member of that crowd) and occasional diplomat,



Actually, no, Rog, Lionel de Roulet strikes me as being something other than that. I mean, given that he was a student of Sartre, and Sartre was not known for his right wing extremism.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... n15665875/

Helene married Lionel Roulet, a student of Sartre's. Unlike Sartre and Simone, who wrote work that was critical of the Nazis but were allowed to live on in Paris under the Occupation, Lionel really was active in the Resistance, working for General DeGaulle (who was not exactly conservative, but was not with the Left either).

[snip]

There's also his active involvement, along with Helene and Simone, in the women's movement ...


Quote:
Also, it would be a mistake to imagine that Simone de Beauvoir was on anything resembling good terms with her sister. All of which you can easily ascertain for yourself, I'm sure.



Weird how your often unreferenced statements like this don't check out. They had a problematic relationship as many sisters do, and there's no doubt Helene probably resented Simone for her greater fame. But ...

http://www.helenedebeauvoir.com/pageID_3294191.html

La Femme rompue
Paris,Gallimard, 1967

'Why have you chosen to illustrate the mediocre book your sister has written?' Hélène de Beauvoir was asked this question in a television interview prompted by an exhibition of her paintings. The interviewer referred to the deluxe edition of La femme rompue by her famous sister Simone de Beauvoir, which had been published in 1967, and which was illustrated by sixteen original engravings. That autumn, the three novellas from the collection - including the illustrations - were also published in women's magazine Elle. The book became a bestseller, but it was savaged by the critics. In Tout compte fait (1972), one of Simone de Beauvoir's autobiographical works, she wrote that the collaboration was something she had long wished for, and which had finally come true with La femme rompue. The short stories in this collection were better suited for illustrations than her other, longer texts. Hélène defended her sister's collection passionately: according to her, anyone unable to appreciate the work simply lacked the intelligence to understand it.

[snip]

But now, Rog, here's the most interesting curiosity of all. Claudine Monteil, who seems to have written quite a bit about the Beauvoir sisters and their involvement in left wing causes (it seems she knew them both), also appears to have written a book about Oona and Charlie Chaplin.

http://www.claudinemonteil.com/lovers-of-modern-times/

Patrice is, of course, Oona & Charlie's daughter-in-law, once married to their son Michael.

You are one weird cat, Roger.

Find me a source that shows Lionel de Roulet was a "right wing extremist". The truth is there isn't much about him but there's plenty on both of the Beauvoir sisters, and refs to him say he was an active supporter of Sartre's politics, which I would hardly call "right wing". Monteil shows that he often participated with Helene and Simone in protests for greater womens' rights in France. Now, on the other hand, he seems to have been more involved in anticommunist efforts after the war, but I think that still doesn't make him a right wing extremist.

Now again Claudine Monteil's work shows they had a difficult relationship and apparently Helene often resented her sister's greater fame, while she just quietly painted and exhibited her work. However, they were still very close and supportive of each other in other ways, and both were involved in feminist causes.

Finally, the only point of the last part of the post was to show a possible point of connection -- why else would Claudine Monteil write about Oona and Charlie Chaplin, if not for their involvement in left wing politics? Charlie was blacklisted after the war, as you might know, and Oona O'Neill-Chaplin, Patrice's mom-in-law, was also a feminist. I'm merely pointing out it's not impossible Patrice could have met Helene and Simone de Beauvoir through the French women's movement -- nothing more.

Don't know how else to define it. He appears to have been a political moderate, somewhat to the right of his wife Helene and certainly of Simone. Maybe in an alternative political lexicon a moderate is an extremist.

There's very little in print about him, far more info on his wife & sister-in-law, about which there are several books.

What little there is says he was more concerned about communism and the Soviet threat than they were, but also supported all their efforts on behalf of the women's movement, and his politics were very close to that of his teacher, Sartre.


Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir meeting with Che Guevara

My assessment of French politics in the 1950s and 60s? There were people on the left who wanted France to completely withdraw from Algeria. There were people on the right who said Algeria was to remain French forever. The Gaullists were center right, but decided that in order to save France, an orderly withdrawal from Algeria was necessary. This led them to being attacked from the right, by the OAS, and by people like this fellow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bastien-Thiry

Now again people have doubted many of Plantard's statements but it appears one thing that seems to be true is he was connected to the Committees of Public Safety that defended de Gaulle and his regime from just these sort of attacks, using the sobriquet "Captain Way". There are newspaper articles that appear to confirm this.

If so, this strikes me as characterizing Plantard's politics as center right - not making him a right wing extremist or "Nazi" in any meaningful sense. I think that's also true of other Gaullists, like de Roulet, Andre Malraux, and Michel Debre.

Now yes, I am very interested in getting to the bottom of why one of the "peedox" points out Lionel de Roulet was a founder of a "Merovingian Party" that somehow relates to the larger narrative.

So yes his politics are interesting to me.

I read in Helene de Beauvoir's French bio that he joined the Council of Europe in the 1950s.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hélène_de_Beauvoir

Well, what is the primary focus of the Council of Europe?

The Council of Europe (French: Conseil de l'Europe) is the oldest international organisation working towards European integration, having been founded in 1949. It has a particular emphasis on legal standards, human rights, democratic development, the rule of law and cultural co-operation. It has 47 member states with some 800 million citizens.

[snip]

What did Plantard say about some of the interests connected to the Priory in Messianic Legacy? That there were people connected to it trying to promote European unity as a bulwark against the Soviets? That does sound like Roulet.

Do you notice any promotion of the idea of European integration and unity in Vaincre?

It is true that European unification was a rightist ideal, but generally not for the far right or hard nationalist right, and it's been one that's been found just as often among the left.

I'm interested in getting into the bottom of all this. And so yes, if anybody can show me how Roulet was a "right wing extremist" I'll listen. But they need to point out why they think so, I'm not just going to take their word for it.

As for the politics of his wife, they seem very close to that of her sister. And I can't imagine he would be all that different from her, I don't think the marriage was like Mary Matalin and James Carville. Especially given that he was a student of Sartre.

Wow.... discussion ... and no insults! This is good! I like it!

Your point would be taken, except that Claudine Monteil, Paul Buck, and others identify him as a "disciple". I think that implies a different relationship that just one semester with him as an undergraduate.

It looks like they had a deeper relationship.
http://tinyurl.com/yzumnoe

Would make sense, given that they were married, or in long-term intimate relationships, with sisters.


Quote:
Simone's love/hate relationship with her sister had quite a lot to do with the fact that the latter's husband had very much rejected the "hard left" ideas that Sartre was increasingly leading towards.



I said he was not as "left" as Sartre or Simone. I just don't think he was "hard right". And here he is described as a political moderate.

http://tinyurl.com/yl9phyq


Quote:
As to the United States of Europe, which is presently being rather successfully crammed down European throats, that little project existed well before the war, of course, but its two most vocal and visible proponents - in the immediate post-war period - were Gen. Charles De Gaulle and one Herr Abs (AKA the Old Man) whose career could use somewhat more scrutiny than generally accorded to it.



Well, my point was not to discuss the modern-day European Union and the politics of its adoption or rejection thereof. We could, but that's not really my goal.

We are trying to make sense of Plantard.

The guy who put this in his newsletter in the 1940s, when it was still a dream.


I think this explains what Plantard and Lionel de Roulet might have had in common, and why they were both Gaullists. So maybe we're coming close to agreement.

I'm still not sure why Lionel wanted to establish a "Merovingian Party" in the 1930s ... but at least he fits into other things.

Hello, The debunkers often claim that Plantard during questioning by Judge Jean Pierre confessed "deception" ... this call was due to the investigation by the magistrate on the death of Roger Patrice Pellat, that Plantard was given as Grand Master Priory of Sion ... the judge was helped by a flurry of letters of denunciation by Dagobert fire ... But the deception involved Plantard claimed the title, that of legitimate descendant of Clovis, and thus heir to the throne of France ... nothing else, I did not judge charged with investigating RLC. plantardienne This fad comes over 50 years, with its actions in the Latin Academy, one of the many organizations due to his creative spirit ... before that, whether in Galatians Alpha and National Renewal there is no trace of the Merovingian lineage ... All those who knew Plantard speak of him as a cultured man, reserved ... it is hard to admit that he "believed" to be really the descendant of Chilperic! Why then taking the risk as Boudet (as Magdalene?) To move to an eccentric offering a little sick this genealogy crazy! There is no clear information on the sources of this change, moving from a chivalrous Fascism Christian and an atheist ... but popular royalism can be given by Coppens track ... There is not that Plantard who thought the Merovingians back to lead the country, already in 1934 a certain Lionel de Roulet with a few friends had created the "Merovingian Party", this de Roulet was the brother of Simone de Beauvoir (the one who reported it). During the war it Roulet was charged with opening an institute in Portugal, this institute was commissioned to do the Promotion of Free France and abroad. By the end of the war, Roulet continues its missions to the Gaullist networks (Vienna, Belgrade, Casablanca ...). This membership Gaullist networks will be confirmed later by Simone de Beauvoir. When de Gaulle left office, Robert Schuman offered a position in Italy, then to the Council of Europe. We know that Plantard also participated in networks Gaullists, without going into details he was suspected of money transfer (from Switzerland to France), to be part of the Committees of Public Hi, SAC ... It is therefore surprising to see that this tradition of "Merovingian Party" launched in 1934 by Lionel de Roulet is found in a Priory of Sion led by Pierre Plantard, and that these two characters find themselves in networks Gaullists ... before the takeover of General ... Greetings, Philemon.

Philemon Hello, There are much better when we learn that the Camarguaise Participation whose manager was RP Pelat was prominent shareholders of the Gaullists. It is for this reason that Pelat has been described as GM of PS. The rent of this association was paid by the company whose manager was Pelat ........... you said weird. Qt the three protagonists of which you speak, they are all three dcd, Peace to their souls. Another thing too, Philemon, in your post you say that the transfer was from Switzerland to France, the opposite was place and that from the exile of De Gaulle, to raise money for the future Gaullist party, the RPF. What I like most about your message, what are the three dots after the word Coppens. had to smugglers ...... and no matter their past during the war. Some of these were again virgin in what you call the Gaullist networks ..... by exploiting the Templar archives for instance. Others have developed friendships with others temporary, new horizons .... but you know as well as I do. Perhaps it would be good that you give details of the party Merovingian, even if only by personal curiosity ..... Regards to all Thy

Hi Thierry, Thanks for the clarification (and correction). Sorry, I do not have much info on this party Merovingian ... And the suspension points following Coppens were firstly to give the source of my info, and especially to say that following its investigation, I left him, not by ignorance but by disagreement. This post came after the publication of an apocryphal document Roux, Patrick Mensior, where I saw a first policy statement in the resumption of the case of RLC in the 60s. This is long enough to explain, but quickly said, I think Plantard was looking for a "real mystery" to establish his political * and place in history. And he found in Rennes elements to do: A Legitimist priest who spent a lot of money, a former Visigothic capital, legends, parchments missing treasure hunters who find nothing ... if not new leads. I therefore want to say that Plantard had his plan on arriving at Rennes and he tried to adapt, sometimes with forceps, the items he had found, not vice versa. As he did with the "Centuries." What I'm trying to show is that it is not because Plantard is not the descendant of Clovis, that there is no affair at Rennes. That's what trying to do the debunkers: still from the "great story", to which no one believes in dismantling one of whoppers (Mass trafficking, inheritance Merovingian descent Christ ...), and Finally, depending on the mood of the author, that Saunière was a ... (your choice), but in no case there is mystery ... although now, each of debunkers leaves a door open ... Cherisey becomes heavy to wear and some issues are still no answers. Finally, I said in this post, that Plantard had not "invented" the "party Merovingian", as one who had done was anything but a stooge and that we found this gentleman in the same groups that Plantard ... and it was a Gaullist "Historic" ... Hi, Philip. * As per strategy, we know that many groups said "stay behind" companies used it more or less secret and esoteric to conceal their subversive activities.

Hello Philemon, After quick research, I have very little about Roulet was to be the "redneck" Simone de Beauvoir, so I stumbled upon the site of Tautavel Man. The interesting article gives details Wilpédia yet implausible, I doubt that a colonel on the eve of a war parte convalo .... and want to make this a colonel Gaullist historical ..... even with quotation marks, it is going a little fast. I doubt that Plantard also may have played a key role in the Gaullist organization, especially for the periods 45/56, it has necessarily been helped by the only ones who had the power at the time, the Gaullists, drives in this by someone who would become the eminence grise of the General, Jacques Foccart. He alone with his network had sufficient power to enter docs in the BNF without control. That's why I do not believe at all in the omnipresence of PP to want this or that institute new order. To demonstrate the role played by the Com / R. Div ... in the exploitation of Templar archives. (Where PP was this operation?) And then the Gaullists would they accept that? I think not. In his letter of 07/03/85, de Sede tells me that PP came into contact with him in 1960 (in the same letter also Sède of writing that there is no relationship between EO and PS of 56 as well as the complete absence of relationship between Gisors and Rennes) came to see if de Sede, so it's probably on "order" .... Gaullist networks of the time? This time he had called the rank of "Captain Way .... " Kind regards Thierry

Philemon hello, thanks for your great research tjrs oriented in the positive direction. I know the site of Mario and his serious QT with different assumptions. It is true that the dates given correspond to specific events: a PS to fifteenth, the quote of the PS in a book of the nineteenth century (the Templars in Bohemia) not to mention the Trojan descent of the Merovingian ..... legend is beautiful ..... But hey, it goes round in circles with the same sources and the same stories. Anselm of St. Mary (citing as source the Jesuits in T.3 of the lives of the saints of the month of March) attributed to Dagobert II, the following children: Sigebert, who died along with his father or shortly after, Clotaire IV (+ 718) Thierry II (737) Irmina, living in 706 and died on December 14 a, Adele Ragnetrude Rotilde It will be easy to compare a "whatever I "with the picture of Red Serpent on the Merovingians only to realize the deception. If I may counsel, read the booklet Bordes Richard appeared in 84 where the author, meticulously dismantled point by point the assumptions of smokers Plantard and other Lincoln Moreover, in the summary of the book on the site of Mario ( http://www.renneslechateau.it/rennes-le ... uetes&id=2 ) the name of the Bishop Arbogast is quoted as having cured Sigebert, charged by a wild boar stew in refusing to complete. Or is Argobast dcd 21 July 678, a year and a half before the accident of Dagobert II ..... if you read Anselm, you can read in early 679, Wilfrid, Bishop of York came to King Dagobert II, who wanted to give him the bishopric of Strasbourg (it is thus that the bishop was free since the early 679 Bishop was the last Arbogast ( http://nominis.cef.fr/contenus/saints_1544.html ) Returning to Roulet opening a branch in Portugal ..... Gaullist military he received an order he executed without Gaullist it. But it is true that he was good at the time, for his career, joining the party in power .... Regards to you Thy

So, without really knowing what Mr. "brother in law of Simone de Beauvoir", without settling on the term Gaullist, which is probably premature at this time (1940), here are two excerpts from a lecture given recently: The Beauvoir Sisters - CLAUDINE MONTEIL Conference, September 2006. Extracts: "The Second World War, their separation and the Occupation, Sartre and Simone did react. Helen joined Lionel de Roulet Portugal. She wrote her first set of paintings, some fifty paintings on this country. Despite very modest means, her husband opened a cultural institute in Lisbon French Gaullist resisters support base. " Stuck from <http://claudinemonteil.com/fr/discours-et-conferences/ the sister-beauvoir-conference /> When you know the problems that passed the two sisters, because of political differences, I do not think the term "Gaullist" the employee is innocent ... When we know as the importance of Lisbon and Portugal in the organization of Free France (portugal played the double game, says quick!), Leclerc joined London via Lisbon, see the action of the Consul de Sousa ... the Portuguese representation in Vichy ... Especially since: "Sartre as a student Lionel de Roulet, reached later from severe tuberculosis, and who married Helen. Conversations between Lionel and Sartre inspire some characters of Nausea and Way Back ... " Without placing the jar to the pinnacle of the restless, what Lionel was far from being a truffle! But, I admit it's a value judgment. Hi, Philemon