Arcadia Discussion Zone

J.R.R. Tolkein while he is a fiction writer dealt with a lot Philoarchealogy. He kept almost all his correspondence and it is from that you get a different picture of what he was trying to accomplish.
He was trying to put together a history that had been lost but in fiction changing the names. In one of his letters he discusses his belief that the descendants of the civilisation of Atlantis were to be found around the region of Brittany and their work with wood. In fact when I read about the different types of Cagots it reminded me of the descriptions J.R.R. Tolkein gives of all the different distinguishing features of the elven ethnic groups - for instance the hair and eyes of the elves. green/grey with brown hair or blue and blonde. I realise he probably bases this on the nordic races but even with description of the Cagots looking towards the west in veneration is very much like the elves going into the West, to a land that doesn't exist on this plane.

Here is a picture of Sainte Nemoise - the saint of web-feet which also translates as crow's feet.

http://www.cariot.net/blog/presse.pdf

The Perchten Walk is still alive, changed to folklore though.
Here you go: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=perchtenlauf&FORM=BIFD

If you look at the table - on the link. You can see the hypothesis where the various Gods & Goddesses are linked through their attributes.
Common words - epilepsy and sacred Bird. And notice Juno, Jupiter's wife/sister. The peacock is her symbolic bird.

At first I thought this was depiction of Juno with a shell but it's actually Juno with her peacock.



http://joweyl.perso.infonie.fr/60histst.htm

Some of the head gear worn during the Perchtenlauf complete with Lederhosen, umm yummy
I'd like to point out the peacock feathers and birds.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchten

Just a couple of quick notes here:

Bertha of Prüm was a real person, and while her "duck walk" may have been attributable to goose feet, gout, or bad knees, she very likely never saw the Pyrennées nor did the mountain folk know of her. Her reputation back home in Bavaria may have been based solely (bad pun) on her given name, after Perchta. The folk of the Pyrennées didn't speak her language.



Attributes (particularly spinning and weaving) shared with many ancient European goddesses, including Mari of the Basques and her goose-footed laminak.

The Old Goddess

Across Europe, Friday was observed as her holy day, beginning with its eve on Thursday night. The dark of the year was sacred to Old Goddess. On winter solstice nights, she was said to fly over the land with her spirit hosts. Tradition averred that shamanic witches rode in her wake on the great pagan festivals.

Reverence was made to Old Goddess in planting and harvesting, baking, spinning and weaving. The fateful Spinner was worshipped as Srecha by the Serbs, as Holle or Perchta by the Germans, as Mari by the Basques, and as Laima by the Lithuanians and Latvians. She appears as Befana in Italy and as myriad faery goddesses in France, Spain, and the Gaeltacht. In Russia she is Mokosh or Kostroma or the apocryphal saint Paraska.

If you visit the site, keep reading down for the spinning lore. If I told you that the witch's "broom" in folklore is actually a distaff, would you believe me?

Side note of possible interest - many of the deity names and attributes of the ancient Balts (Latvians and Lithuanians) correspond with those of the Basques/Gascons. Although I don't ascribe to Margaret Murray's theories of a unified "witch cult" in pre-Christian Europe, one does see many stark similarities in nomenclature and attributes spanning some very wide cultural and linguistic divides.



Yes, absolutely. It was the mark of the "old believers" who were loathed, marginalized, and ridiculed as idiots and bumpkins. Not to mentioned feared as practitioners of black magick.



I don't think so, its symbolism is pretty plain. The old believers just learned to become a bit more crafty, disguising their old deities and spirits as saints.

My favorite is Saint Guinefort, the dog saint (and not simply because his unofficial feast day is my birthday).


TCP

Sheila, this cuts off just as it's getting to the good part!

TCP

Interesting. As are these definitions of "cant":

–noun
1.
insincere, esp. conventional expressions of enthusiasm for high ideals, goodness, or piety.
2.
the private language of the underworld.
3.
the phraseology peculiar to a particular class, party, profession, etc.: the cant of the fashion industry.
4.
whining or singsong speech, esp. of beggars.

–verb (used without object)
5.
to talk hypocritically.
6.
to speak in the whining or singsong tone of a beggar; beg.

------------------

One might even say "argot" instead, another word sometimes claimed to refer to Goths, and didn't we just see the Agotes (cagots) described as churchbuilders...?

I find it very interesting that the contemporaneous physical descriptions of Cagots swing between short and dark, and tall and fair. That to me suggests a non-homogeneous group that might have varied origins, or similarly a generalization that includes a diverse population doing similar things - sort of like we might say migrant farm workers.

There is what is supposed to be an interesting French book for any who might be interested:

http://www.editions-sudouest.com/nos-ed ... agots.html

And in a synchronous note, I just received for Christmas (but have not read), the latest book from Tom Knox, called "Marks of Cain," which apparently involves Cagots. He has a somewhat interesting page with some relevant photos and an article he wrote for the Daily Mail:

http://www.tomknoxbooks.com/marks-of-cain/cagots/

And lastly, I loved this photo of a Cagot font at (I believe the Church of Saint Savin) Aneran (avert your eyes from the symbol over the door):

The Trémaïe des Baux - Trois Maries, or Three Marys, who actually aren't Mary Magdalene, Mary Salome and Mary Jacobe...

The Sarassinas, who are neither Saracens nor gypsies named Sarah...

Like I always say, dig deeper...

TCP

Also refers to images in songs and singing. In heraldry, canting arms are those which reveal the name of the bearer in symbol, like a mill for "Miller" or a bridge for "du Pont". Le langue des oiseaux...or maybe la patte d'oie...



40% of Basques are fair-skinned and blond as well. Given that the mountain folk are often remnants of disparate tribes pushed up into the mountains by invaders in the lowlands, it should never be assumed that mountain peoples are all of a single race or ethnicity. Probably the reason so many dead languages survive in the higher reaches too.

TCP

Very nice photo Caelum.

http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Saint-Savin,_Hau ... 9n%C3%A9es

Yes indeed.
Languages surviving in the higher reaches ... like f.i. Burushaski which is a language that is not known to be related to any other language of the world and is spoken by only 87.000 people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burushaski

Yes interesting photo Caelum , and that symbol in the bottom left is very similar to this one that we have talked about before….

where i come from the saying is "duck toed".....it means that you walk in a certain way with your toes pointed inwards rather than straight ahead of you but not as bad as club foot. I can recall my mam telling me i would end up duck toed and knock kneed because i always wore pointed high heeled shoes, she wasnt completely wrong.....oh the pain

Although these people didn’t have their own religion it seems they had their own culture which is why they must have stayed together as a group rather than breaking off into individual family units and integrating into normal society. That’s the intriguing thing that I don’t understand, if they looked the same as everyone else and weren’t diseased in any way why didn’t they integrate? For instance, a family group could quite easily move to another village anonymously and set up home couldn’t they? and even if something like their name was an obvious sign of their true origins there would be ways around that as well. What made them live as a community for so long if the persecution was as bad as the reports say it was?
Or perhaps they were like the Amish people, perhaps they just wanted to be different and accepted the abuse until such a time came that they could contest their case legally as they did eventually.

Anyway....a bit more on the etymology and origins

The origins of both the term "Cagots" (and "Agotes", "Capots", "Caqueux", etc.) and the Cagots themselves are uncertain. It has been suggested that they were descendants of the Visigoths, and the name Cagot derives the name from caas (dog) and "Goth". Yet in opposition to this etymology is the fact that the word "cagot" is first found in this form no earlier than the year 1542. 16th century French historian Pierre de Marca, in his Histoire de Béarn, propounds the reverse - that the word signifies "hunters of the Goths", and that the Cagots were descendants of the Saracens. The theory that the Cagots were "descendants of Moorish soldiers left over from the 8th century Muslim invasion of Spain and France", a 2008 article in The Independent states, "is supported by many French experts."


In analogy with the Greek word "caco" (bad), near the Breton word "Kakouz" which means "leper", "stingy", it would undoubtedly be preferable simply the origin of the Vulgar Latin verb "CACAR" . This etymology, the most credible, is given by Rabelais . In the Isle ringing, it shows the suffering of bigots harpies disease , the cholera . Rabelais also uses the term "bigot" in a passage of Gargantua about the Abbey of Thelema : An inscription on the door prohibits the entry to "hypocrites, bigots, hypocrites."

Prosaically, the name comes from cago, the first person present indicative tense CACAR Vulgar Latin that evolved into Occitan cagar, ( shit ), "bigot" is actually a derogatory name occasionally, the more neutral crestian being more represented, for example in the names . . The pronunciation is not [ca'go] but [ca'gòt]: as-OT is a diminutive Occitan , bigot can be literally translated as "dung" or "little shit".



Others have claimed that Cagot just a cagoule. But there is evidence that the word cagoule is younger than Cagot. cagoule only dates from the sixteenth century, corruption Cogule (cuculla), a kind of hood or cap.

The original Gothic are excluded: they claimed that Cagot was formed by contraction of caas-goths, Gothic Dog, as usual insulting name 507 to refer the Goths because of their commitment to Arianism, the subject of scandal and hatred for Catholics. According to this hypothesis, this race, dedicated to the persecution of the Franks after their victory at the Battle of Vouillé, in 507, when Clovis killed Alaric II, king of the Visigoths, was forced to hide in the most secret recesses of the mountains to keep his religious habits (such as the Kabyle Berbers and refugees in the Atlas and Aures). It would, in addition to inbreeding, contracted leprosy and hypothyroidism, endemic diseases which, combined together, would reduce this race to a state similar to that of idiots (compare the cretin of the Alps). When, afterwards, she would have abjured Arianism to meet the Roman communion, the community of Cagots would have been regarded as a set of lepers and foul. But the term "Cagot" only appears around 1300, making this hypothesis implausible historically, etymologically implausible. P. Mr. Quitard offers a fantastic alternative hypothesis : Court Gebelin derived the word caco-deus, reported by Ducange. Caco, meaning false, would become a Cagot, hypocrite, hypocrite and as always the name of God in his mouth, and uses it for anything, he was nicknamed, among people who call God God, God-kakle, cackles Christi, and gradually cak-god and Cagot.

The nominal though usually ineffective allies of the Cagots were the government, the educated, and the wealthy. It has been suggested that the odd patchwork of areas which recognized Cagots has more to do with which local governments tolerated the prejudice, and which allowed Cagots to be a normal part of society. In a study in 1683, doctors examined the Cagots and found them no different than normal citizens. Notably, they did not actually suffer from leprosy or any other disease that would justify their exclusion from society. The Parliaments of Pau, Toulouse and Bordeaux were appraised of the situation, and money was allocated to improve the lot of the Cagots, but the populace and local authorities resisted.

It was not until the French Revolution that substantive steps were taken to end discrimination toward Cagots. Revolutionary authorities made clear that Cagots were no different from other citizens, and de jure discrimination generally came to an end. Still, local prejudice from the populace persisted, though the problem at least began to decline.

During the Revolution, Cagots had stormed government offices and burned birth certificates in an attempt to conceal their heritage. These measures did not prove effective, as the local populace still remembered. Rhyming songs kept the names of Cagot families known.

"On December 31, 1696 at Siarrouy are gathered in the house and in front of John Betbèze Ducos, royal notary, and Jean Dominique Campagnolles of Tostat Dominique Larrieu and Jean Barrere of Aurensan of Sarniguet. These men have the common feature of being bigots. They wait a few minutes the arrival of two other representatives of their brothers in misfortune Devèze Bertrand, a master carpenter living in the city of Tarbes and Jean Mascaras of Talazac. Everyone is there. Dominique Campagnolles asked the royal notary to record his statement. In essence, the bigots of Bigorre no longer accept the insults and harassment of people among whom they live, notwithstanding the royal decrees issued in their favor. They decide to join together in a union and take care of their friend Guillaume Bouix, master carpenter Bagneres, continue to the prosecutor and even, if necessary, before the Intendant of the Province, in Pau, any offender who uttered the following insults: bigots, hoods, lepers, Gahete, gésites, gésitains, etc.. Any offended that compromise, or accommodate itself will not carry his complaint, will be liable to a fine of 500 livres (about 30,000 $ - 25,000 € today)."

I'm not sure their culture would be equitable to an ethnic culture, more like a reaction to a cycle of poverty and degradation.



Things didn't work that way in the age of feudalism. It wasn't a simple matter to pull up stakes and start life over again somewhere else - especially as "someone else". There was a deep distrust of strangers and outsiders then, and people were tied legally to their own communes and their liege lords. Serfs, essentially.



How would one explain the fair-haired, blue-eyed blondes though? I think it's a fool's errand to try to trace a sole distinct ethnic or cultural origin for the Cagots - they weren't any different, ethnically speaking, from other mountain peoples in the region who weren't "untouchable". They didn't speak a separate language, they didn't practice a separate religion, and certainly not all had physical or mental afflictions that made them distinct from the rest of the population. It's something generational, something in their collective past that "marked" future generations for segregation and disparagement. A "sins of the fathers" sort of curse, I'd call it.

TCP

I seem to recall Salvatore was a Donatist???....Now there's a thought

You are probably right Tingra, from memory I don't think Eco says where Salvatore is from and I can't find where the Cagot suggestion came from. In the film he is portrayed as a hunchback or similar deformity ( certainly not blonde haired and blue eyed ) and he was shunned by his community for murder. I'll have to have a flick though the book again, it's a long time since I read it ( and to be honest I didn't quite enjoy it as much as Baudolino etc, which happens sometimes when you read a book after seeing the film ).
Are the Donatists not too early for the period?
I found this :- http://www.eng.umu.se/monster/cissi/doc ... vatore.htm
Probably a wild goose chase following this further.
It was interesting from one of your earlier links, that doctors of the time noted that the Cagots were not lepers yet some they studied did have the reported deformity of the ear. Apart from that they were normal in appearance. It sounds to me like a case of racial prejudice, maybe caused by the Cajots known to be "hard working" and the fear of leprosy and plague from outsiders coming to insular communities?
Regards
Nic

Hi Nic, i will have to look at the book again but i think i am getting mixed up with the Dulcinians and the Donatists, i have the film somwhere so might fish it out to watch later. I know what you mean about the book though, all that Latin did my head in

The Basques, who inhabited the same geographic areas as the Cagots and who are notable for large, long, flat earlobes. actually discriminated against people with small (what we would consider normal) earlobes and assigned them all sorts of derogatory traits. They had a term for the "lobe-challenged", I don't know the word however. You may be onto something, Nic.

TCP

When looking at the etymology I found this ( which Tingra posted earlier ):- http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Cagot?qsrc=3044
What interested me was the similarity from bagaudae (or bagad) to Beghard, this might be just a daft leap of faith. The reason I mention this is because the Beghards were thought to be from the Netherlands, blonde haired blue eyed foreigners? Coincidentally, this link mentions the Fraticelli as well:- http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianheresy ... sition.php
Probably nothing but I thought I'd post it, seeing as all these groups the Cagots, Cathars and Beghards were persecuted by the church.
Regards
Nic