"dove people" (trying to recapture the deleted thread)

rain · **Posted:** 28 Aug 2009 4:05 am

I think ritual is very important in order to pass down knowledge but sometimes it trips over into being superstition or its gravely misunderstood until it becomes a mere mockery of itself.
If you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough by Sir James George Frazer you can start to extrapolate the meaning in a lot of common rituals common throughout the major religions.
It takes years to study the different religions, their rituals and compare them.

Louvian:

Quote:

Mudras, or gestures; mantras or syllables, words and phrases; mandalas and yantras, which are symbolic diagrams of the forces at work in the universe, are all used as aids for meditation and for the achievement of spiritual and magical power.

For instance the mandalas and yantras can represent mathematical and physical properties inherent in the study of cosmology and quantum physics.
Robert Oppenheimer was famous for studying eastern religions and being that he understood patterns greater than the general public he was able to understand the patterns inherent in the eastern religions and interpret them in the language of Physics and mathematics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer

Quote:

J. Robert Oppenheimer[1][2][3] (April 22, 1904 – February 18, 1967) was an American theoretical physicist and professor of physics at the University of California, Berkeley. He is best known for his role as the scientific director of the Manhattan Project, the World War II effort to develop the first nuclear weapons at the secret Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. For this reason he is remembered as "The Father of the Atomic Bomb". In reference to the Trinity test in New Mexico, where his Los Alamos team first tested the bomb, Oppenheimer famously recalled the Bhagavad Gita: "If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the mighty one." and "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

Code:

In his first year as an undergraduate at Harvard, Oppenheimer was admitted to graduate standing in physics on the basis of independent study. As an undergraduate he never took a class in physics. During a course on thermodynamics taught by Percy Bridgman Oppenheimer found himself drawn to experimental physics. In 1933 he learned Sanskrit and met the Indologist Arthur W. Ryder at Berkeley. He read the Bhagavad Gita in the original language. Later he cited it as one of the most influential books to shape his philosophy of life.[5]

lovuian · **Posted:** 28 Aug 2009 4:53 am

Ok lets look at Carnivals

The French love them

The Roman Carnaval god Bacchus, represents the unrestrained life force, the most loved aspect of Dionysus [dy-uh-ny'-suhs ]the god of mystery and wine. Dionysus is our god of carnivals and masquerades, the liberator of souls and patron saint of those who know the masks they wear. Dionysus brings souls coming together, within the midst of ambiguity, to revel in life and feel the ecstasy of divine love. Dionysos is the heartbeat of life, for without this drumbeat, the soul withers and dies.

http://www.carnaval.com/bacchus/

France is wine country
But the Cathars were not for unbridled , non disciplined debauchery
It was that women were equal that was the major breakthrough
So Rain
I loved that Oppenheimer read Sanskrit
but I agree many rituals of different religions are similiar

rain · **Posted:** 28 Aug 2009 6:20 am

I need a bit of time to look at the rituals of Bacchus to be able to make any determination.
The things I look at when I look at the similarities are mostly the real world scientific applications that may be derived from them.
For instance Sir Isaac Newton used studied alchemy but on a deeper level he was able to provide us with a working theory on the division of light.
Looking at the properties of Lapis lazuli(blue) in religious paintings provides us with an understanding of the way minerals react with U.V. light.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/17504758j6kq7026/

Liquids, fountains, wine, water, fresh water, salt water etc... all have different properties.
For instance the wine is acidic.
Fresh water and salt water can lead to studies on buoncy.
Fountains provide force and energy while aerating the water.
Water allows us to understand wave patterns that say looking at light we can't detect visually.

There are so many examples of the cross-over between the study of rituals and science they are too numerous to mention.
TCJ could probably provide a better understanding of the links between science and religion.

alexius · **Posted:** 28 Aug 2009 3:07 pm

Renne wrote:

So glad to hear from you Alexius. Could you tell us a bit about the Paleologians please?
By the way, my favorite movie is "Zorba the Greek".
Oh yes, the fires still burn but I have learned to channel them to a better use. That is what I learned from Alchemy.
About the Cathars - what "herbs" did they use? It`s all in the herbs....

Thank you for the welcoming words Renne. Zorba the Greek eh I would have preferred The Last Temptation of Christ from another of Kazantzakis's novels The Last Temptation.
Is this the right thread in which to be discussing the Paleologi? Suffice to say that they ruled in Constantinople from 1258 to 1453 CE at a time when the Byzantine Empire was in steep decline sadly due in no small measure to the treachery of the Pope Innocent III (what names these greedy, grasping, bloodthirsty medieval Popes gave themselves) and the Crusaders of the 4th Crusade who sacked Constantinople in 1204 and despoiled its treasures and ruled (or rather misruled there) for 57 shameful years until it was reconquered by Michael VIII, Paleologus. As to the Cathars and their herbs I suppose they used the culinery herbs available at the time. In their rites who knows. To avoid conception most certainly Pennyroyal, Tansy, Angelica. They may have used hallucinogens the Templars most probably used Hashish, inevitable really given their long sojourn in the Middle East and close contact with Arab rulers, and Sufis (closer than is often admitted), and possibly Opium given the proximity of Iran where opium use and addiction was commonplace. But hey this thread is suppose to be about the symbolic significance of the Dove in religion, romance, myth, legend and art isn't it?

lovuian · **Posted:** 28 Aug 2009 5:10 pm

Well everything is connected Alexius
Remember this why talk of Bacchus and Wine or Dionysus
Cathars and Doves

and the connection to the dove
In Arcadia, Demeter was worshiped as a horse-headed deity into historical times:

Quote:

The second mountain, Mt. Elaios, is about 30 stades from Phigaleia, and has a cave sacred to Demeter Melaine ["Black"]... the Phigalians say, they accounted the cave sacred to Demeter, and set up a wooden image in it. The image was made in the following fashion: it was seated on a rock, and was like a woman in all respects save the head. She had the head and hair of a horse, and serpents and other beasts grew out of her head. Her chiton reached right to her feet, and she held a dolphin in one hand, a dove in the other. Why they made the xoanon like this should be clear to any intelligent man who is versed in tradition. They say they named her Black because the goddess wore black clothing. However, they cannot remember who made this xoanon or how it caught fire; but when it was destroyed the Phigalians gave no new image to the goddess and largely neglected her festivals and sacrifices, until finally barrenness fell upon the land.

– Pausanias, Description of Greece 8.42.1ff.

[edit]

We are talking about the Triple Goddess when Demeter/Kore/Hecate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloe_%28goddess%29

Now her daughter Persephone ended up ruling the underworld and was Queen

Demeter's emblem is the poppy, a bright red flower that grows among the barley
But here comes the story of Demeter and Zeus
Zeus the corn goddess bore Persephone, the dying and reviving daughter. According to Orphic tradition—one of the Greek ‘mystery’ cults—Rhea as Demeter had forbidden Zeus to marry. At this the sky god sought to rape his mother. When Rhea turned herself into a serpent, Zeus did likewise, and as serpents they coupled together. When in turn Zeus enjoyed their daughter Persephone, he also assumed a serpent-like form and begot Dionysus.

And the Best part of the story saved for last

According to the Orphic poems, written by the Neoplatonic philosophers (3rd-4th century AD), Zeus had slept with his own daughter, while he was in the form of a snake, so Persephone became the mother of Dionysus or Zagreus. Through the machination of his jealous consort, Hera, the Titans killed and devoured Zagreus (Dionysus). Zeus destroyed the Titans with his thunderbolts. Mankind was created from the ashes of the Titans. Zagreus' heart was saved, which Zeus had swallowed. Zagreus was reborn when Zeus seduced a mortal woman, Semele, where Zagreus became known as Dionysus. Most of the time, writers had simply called Zagreus as Dionysus.

According to the Orphic myth, it is Persephone, who was the final judge, to decide if a person gains entry to Elysium. Those who failed to please her, they would either be punished in Tartarus or the shade would be reincarnated, to live another life among the living. Only those who lived a virtuous life can gain entry to Elysium.

http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/hades.html#Persephone

Orphic mystery religion was austere in comparison to the other Dionysian cults, where sexual orgies and drunken revelries were part of the customs. With the Orphic cult, the emphasis was placed upon abstinence. The mythical musician and poet Orpheus, was said to have founded this Orphic movement. Orpheus was said to have written a number of poems and songs that formed the basis of Orphic religion. However, most of these early works had not survived, they were mostly in fragments. And the Orphic Creation was written quite late, during the time of the Neoplatonic writers.

The central belief in the Orphic movement is that of reaching Elysium, the Isle of the Blessed. When the soul departed, only those who had lived a righteous life could enjoy their final resting place in Elysium as their reward. It might take several lifetimes to come to dwell in Elysium. The Orphic religion had adopted a belief in reincarnation. The Orphic myth clearly showed that Dionysus was reincarnated, before he reached godhood. For everyone else, Elysium can only be achieved through initiation to the Orphic mysteries and by living in an austere life: abstaining from eating meat or drinking wine, and avoidance of sexual intercourse. Those who lived a wicked life would be punished in Hell or in Tartarus, or would continue to through the cycle of reincarnation.

To the Orphics, Dionysus was not only the god of wine and ecstasy but also a chthonic god of fertility and, in addition, a god of reincarnation and the last supreme ruler of the world, after Zeus.

Very similar to the Cathar idea of avoidance and being perfect
and love of song and poetry
http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/olympians.html#Dionysus

rain · **Posted:** 28 Aug 2009 11:18 pm

Quote:

"You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts."
— Richard P. Feynman

Louvian:

Quote:

To the Orphics, Dionysus was not only the god of wine and ecstasy but also a chthonic god of fertility and, in addition, a god of reincarnation and the last supreme ruler of the world, after Zeus.

Dionysus was about the ability to tell time and seasonal change. The people needed to know the best time to plant crops, harvesting etc and they passed down the knowledge through celebrations/rituals designed to remind them of this knowledge. Fertility was about the fertility of life in all its natural forms. The god of reincarnation would have been about the wheel of the 4 seasons and its constant spin, dying in winter to return in spring. So we celebrate both life and death.
The mysteries always have a multiplicity of meanings.

Quote:

"A poet once said, 'The whole universe is in a glass of wine.' We will probably never know in what sense he meant it, for poets do not write to be understood. But it is true that if we look at a glass of wine closely enough we see the entire universe. There are the things of physics: the twisting liquid which evaporates depending on the wind and weather, the reflection in the glass; and our imagination adds atoms. The glass is a distillation of the earth's rocks, and in its composition we see the secrets of the universe's age, and the evolution of stars. What strange array of chemicals are in the wine? How did they come to be? There are the ferments, the enzymes, the substrates, and the products. There in wine is found the great generalization; all life is fermentation. Nobody can discover the chemistry of wine without discovering, as did Louis Pasteur, the cause of much disease. How vivid is the claret, pressing its existence into the consciousness that watches it! If our small minds, for some convenience, divide this glass of wine, this universe, into parts -- physics, biology, geology, astronomy, psychology, and so on -- remember that nature does not know it! So let us put it all back together, not forgetting ultimately what it is for. Let it give us one more final pleasure; drink it and forget it all!" — Richard P. Feynman

rain · **Posted:** 29 Aug 2009 12:18 am

Quote:

The Mourning Dove (Zenaida macroura) is a member of the dove family (Columbidae). The bird is also called the American Mourning Dove or Rain Dove, and formerly was known as the Carolina Pigeon or Carolina Turtledove.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mourning_Dove

I have my own dove

So what would the Dove truly represent as a symbol. Why would people use it since ancient times.
The Dove
white-represents purity
It spreads it wings-represents freedom
It flies overhead-represents the movement of knowledge
It is released-represents peace being released into the world
It is a symbol of peace-represents peace may be found
It carries a another symbol-it is a carrier of specific knowledge
Can be found down through the ages-represents a line of knowledge carried down through the ages
Embodies knowledge-represents the knowledge of peace and nature down through the ages
White and flight-represents enlightenment
So when you see a dove what do you see?
Can you see all it's meaning and how a simple, singular symbol can represent a world.

lovuian · **Posted:** 29 Aug 2009 12:53 am

Lest us not forget Semiramis
Armenian tradition portrays her as a homewrecker and a harlot. These facts are partly to be explained by observing that, according to the legends, in her birth as well as in her disappearance from earth, Semiramis appears as a goddess, the daughter of the fish-goddess Atargatis, and herself connected with the doves of Ishtar or Astartë.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiramis

Renne · **Posted:** 29 Aug 2009 1:57 am

The Dove People and the Biblical "Mixed Wine. "Mixed Wine" does not refer to 2 types of wine mixed together, but to herbs mixed into the wine.
Ah, the herbs of the Middle East, no wonder they were so other-worldly.

Thank you for the information about the Byzantines, I love their art. My sister sent me Byzantine icon prints that she saw in Jerusalem. She was baptised in the Jordan River this summer.

Welcome Alexius, we sorely need some royalty on this Forum!

lovuian · **Posted:** 29 Aug 2009 4:00 am

Alexius

Quote:

Paleologi? Suffice to say that they ruled in Constantinople from 1258 to 1453 CE at a time when the Byzantine Empire was in steep decline sadly due in no small measure to the treachery of the Pope Innocent III (what names these greedy, grasping, bloodthirsty medieval Popes gave themselves) and the Crusaders of the 4th Crusade who sacked Constantinople in 1204 and despoiled its treasures and ruled (or rather misruled there) for 57 shameful years until it was reconquered by Michael VIII, Paleologus. As to the Cathars and their herbs I suppose they used the culinery herbs available at the time. In their rites who knows. To avoid conception most certainly Pennyroyal, Tansy, Angelica. They may have used hallucinogens the Templars most probably used Hashish, inevitable really given their long sojourn in the Middle East and close contact with Arab rulers, and Sufis (closer than is often admitted), and possibly Opium given the proximity of Iran where opium use and addiction was commonplace.

Herbs, Poppy, Hashish,
Yes Alexius great point
well said the Templars did have close relations with the Arab Rulers

am I wrong to say that Blood Brothers was a contract some of the Grand Masters may have
been involved in.
If the Cathars had the herbs to enhance DMT production which affects the pineal gland

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Casale_Monferrato
Casale was an important center for Italian music from the 13th through the 17th centuries. During the Albigensian Crusade

The Albigensian Crusade or Cathar Crusade was a 20-year military campaign initiated by the Roman Catholic Church to eliminate the Cathar heresy in Languedoc....
, Casale was a refuge for troubadours fleeing regions to the west; the music of such troubadours may have been decisive in the formation of secular Italian musical styles in the 14th century (see Music of the Trecento
Music of the trecento

The Trecento was a period of vigorous activity in Italy in the arts, including painting, architecture, literature, and music. The music of the Trecento paralleled the achievements in the other arts in many ways, for example, in pioneering new forms of expression, especially in secular song in the vernacular language, Italian language....
). In the 16th century the town was incorporated into the holdings of the Gonzaga family, who were patrons of music throughout the Renaissance.

Renne · **Posted:** 30 Aug 2009 11:45 pm

Sorry I called you royalty Alexius, that can be the kiss of death on the Forum. I`m just looking for any excuse to post crowns and jewels.
The dove of course was the sign of the Holy Ghost descending upon Jesus in the Jordan River.

Eginolf · **Posted:** 31 Aug 2009 5:39 am

Seeker1 wrote:

Once again -- it's a serious, real question: where can one find this "Book of Love" in a non-genre book. I know Elizabeth van Buren, Kath McGowan, and others mention it. But where in any books on the Cathars by, you know, REAL historians, is it mentioned?

AFAIK - nowhere mentioned. Might be some new age lore.

alexius · **Posted:** 31 Aug 2009 11:16 am

So Eginolf you have perused the whole of the vast literature relating to the Cathars? I take my hat off to you. It is my belief that this book is the true Holy Grail and that it now resides in the Secret Archives of the Vatican

BULLDOGNIC · **Joined:** 24 Apr 2008 2:43 pm **Posts:** 1872

Quote:

So Eginolf you have perused the whole of the vast literature relating to the Cathars? I take my hat off to you. It is my belief that this book is the true Holy Grail and that it now resides in the Secret Archives of the Vatican

You know Alexius that sarcasm is the highest form of wit

What do you base your belief that the "book of love" exists on, could you provide a reference to it from a reliable historic source ?
Regards
Nic

crimson_dove · **Joined:** 25 Jul 2008 2:43 pm **Posts:** 1468

nic!
how have you been?
good summer i hope...
good to have you back :-)

TCJ · **Joined:** 22 Sep 2008 3:15 pm **Posts:** 1566

Rain remarked:

Quote:

TCJ could probably provide a better understanding of the links between science and religion.

On this thread topic, no I honestly couldn't off hand but in reference to the previous page and ancient technology there are the electrical device seeming anomalies seen in ancient history.

Baghdad Battery.

Quote:

This experiment proved that electric batteries were used some 1,800 years before their modern invention by Alessandro Volta in 1799.
It also seems that the use of similar batteries can be safely placed into ancient Egypt, where several objects with traces of electroplated precious metals have been found at different locations. There are several anomalous finds from other regions, which suggests use of electricity on a grander scale.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_11.htm\

A striking pictorial collection of possible ancient electric lighting is below. A must see imo.

http://einhornpress.com/alexanria.aspx

Quote:

Sir J. Norman Lockyer, who studied ancient Egyptian temples and tombs in depth, reported in 1894. In his Dawn of Astronomy, he pointed out an enigma—at the time—when he wrote: "In all freshly-opened tombs there are no traces whatever of any kind of combustion having taken place, even in the inner-most recesses. So strikingly evident is this that my friend M. Bouriant, while we were discussing this matter at Thebes, laughingly suggested the possibility that the electric light was known to the ancient Egyptians."

BULLDOGNIC · **Joined:** 24 Apr 2008 2:43 pm **Posts:** 1872

Quote:

nic!
how have you been?
good summer i hope...
good to have you back

Thanks Paula,
I had a great time, lots to talk about but need to get my photos sorted first. Unfortunately had "flu" the day I landed, but feel fine now ( don't know if it was the infamous one or not? ). Will be back on track soon, I'm still trying to get through all the posts that I missed, nice thread by the way.
Regards
Nic

crimson_dove · **Joined:** 25 Jul 2008 2:43 pm **Posts:** 1468

wonderful!

yes, i find the whole symbol of the "dove" so intriguing.

i think that i did mention this prior...however, i shall mention it again.

i was at the animal shelter to choose a cat...when i noticed a single white dove in a cage, by the cashier.
i asked if she were alone. the store clerk told me that her mate had died. as doves are monogamous, she was to die soon. well...i adopted her instead of a cat. she lived with me for over 9 years. she died in my hands. she had adopted me you see... ;-)

even laying unfertilised eggs in my hands...

so, doves are important to me and i chose my forum name after her...
doves do bleed and they bleed red...i know.
so, crimson dove...

will find pictures and try to upload them if anyone is interested in seeing her.
i named her "paloma"...of course, spanish...for "dove"

crimson_dove · **Joined:** 25 Jul 2008 2:43 pm **Posts:** 1468

okay...well, she is here...
and i still do not know how to show pictures in a post here. :-(

http://s828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/crimson_dove38/?action=view&current=DSCN0187.jpg

lovuian · **Posted:** 31 Aug 2009 9:51 pm

Oh she is beautiful

I love my Morning Doves they cooo cooo all morning

alexius · **Posted:** 01 Sep 2009 6:11 am

You know Alexius that sarcasm is the highest form of wit What do you base your belief that the "book of love" exists on, could you provide a reference to it from a reliable historic source ?
Regards
Nic

If you read the relevant post carefully you will see that it says "It is my belief".

Eginolf · **Posted:** 01 Sep 2009 6:20 am

alexius wrote:

So Eginolf you have perused the whole of the vast literature relating to the Cathars? I take my hat off to you. It is my belief that this book is the true Holy Grail and that it now resides in the Secret Archives of the Vatican

Not I did but a good friend of mine. Anything that's available in french, english and german. Not in latin. And she wrote books about cathars.
What's below your hat? Do I see a vacuum there?

Yes, you believe, that's sure ... and I believe that you suppose.
There's a proverb in Austria: "Glauben heißt nicht wissen." ---> Believing means: not knowing.

crimson_dove · **Joined:** 25 Jul 2008 2:43 pm **Posts:** 1468

crimson_dove · **Joined:** 25 Jul 2008 2:43 pm **Posts:** 1468

thanks lov...
thanks TCJ for the hints at posting...
i did it!!!

now, i could not resize her...but one step at a time ;-)

alexius · **Posted:** 01 Sep 2009 2:28 pm

Well Eginolf I never wear a hat, sorry. As for that old Austrian proverb well what can I say after all the Austrians gave us Wittgenstein and ---er schnitzel aand er AH but we don't mention him much these days.
A lot of Austrians believed in him alright but I suppose that they later excused themselves by quoting that old proverb - they believed but they didn't know!

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