Arcadia Discussion Zone

anybody care to help with this possible connection?

Albert Mackey, 1898 From The History of Freemasonry and The Story Of The Scottish Templars writes......



Albert Gallatin Mackey, 33°, was a native of Charleston, South Carolina, and a graduate of the Medical College in Charleston. He was member of St. Andrews Lodge No. 10, afterwards affiliating with Solomon's Lodge No. 1 which he served as Master in 1842. Serving as Grand Secretary of the Grand Lodge of South Carolina from 1842 to 1867, he became a Knight Templar in South Carolina Encampment No. 1 in 1842, Commander in 1844, and later was made honorary Past Grand Warden of the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States. In the Scottish Rite, he was crowned a Sovereign Grand Inspector General in 1844, and in that same year, he became Secretary General of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of the Southern Jurisdiction, a position he held under his death in 1881.

Albert Pike was also a member of this lodge. The Scottish Rite Lodge of the Southern Jurisdiction is situated on the 33 degree parallel.

Of course our resident thread destroyer will now make the stupid idiotic statement that because this SECRET isn't in the public domain it therefore isn't worthy of further study. Luckily some of us are a little smarter than this and realise that we are not looking for the truth but what people believed to be the truth.

Of course it is denied by the freemasons that Peter d'Audment ever went to Scotland which is my instant cue to study this, knowing their propensity for "Diverting a Discourse" (that's telling lies to you and me)

The tried and tested techniques are:



Sound like the methods used on here by someone we know does it?

I'm about to ask you a direct question I really should know better but here goes.

What is your source for this?

I've about as much chance of this being answered as me landing on the moon in the next five minutes.

I heard that too about some of the French knights escaping and going to Scotland and fighting in the Battle of Bannock?
I think that's the battle's name.However I'm not sure who their commander was.
Also , I'm curious, is there any book out there that lists the members of the Knights Templars in their respective countries?
Such as all the commanders and knights in England,France, Spain,etc? I'm looking for such a roll for Germany if there is one.Sorry if off topic.

You might find the Teutonic Knights interesting if its Germany your interested in.
http://www.chivalricorders.org/vatican/teutonic.htm

Thank you. Some cousins of my grandmother,the von Lilienschilds fought in the Crusades and belonged to an order of knights, most likely the Livonian Knights of the Sword,since the family was mentioned in the records of the City of Riga back in the 13th or 14th century according to records ucovered by the Gestapo when investigating her cousin Reinhold von Lilienschild.The Livonian Knights of the sword later amalgamated into the Teutonic Knights.
It's possible I may have relatives in the present day Teutonic Knights since I have cousins in Germany who are priests and nuns.
I've seen mention of the Knights Templar having houses in Germany, and that is what I'm kind of looking for.Information on the Knights in Germany. The relatives in Nuremberg keep the family history book,so there might be some mention there of either order in the family,I just some day need to go visit to find out.

The British Museum lists all the U.K. Cistercian houses in existence, with the dates of their foundation. These lists were written by the French in the 13th century, and were compiled in the Mother Abbey of Citeaux in France. In the lists there are references to "Saundell in Cantire", circa 1163 , which, when translated, gives us - Saddell in Kintyre. The Preceptory at Saddell was founded in 1163 by monks from Rushen Abbey on the Isle of Man, originally home to monks of the French Savignac order. In 1147 the Manx abbey came under Cistercian rule following the merging of the Savignac and Cistercian orders and was subsequently dedicated to St Mary.

Saddell is home to the ruins of a Cistercian Abbey. This was founded around 1160 by Somerled, and completed by his son, whose descendants became the Clan MacDonald and eventual Lords of the Isles. Stone carving was a speciality at Saddell and there are fine examples of carved medieval grave slabs displayed under cover in the grounds of the abbey, now a cemetery. Relief carvings on the stones show warriors in their armour, clerics, ships, huntsmen with stags, large swords and Celtic knotwork designs. Most were carved at Saddell Abbey but some are more typical of the Iona school of stone-carving.

Some say Joan of Arc trained there

http://www.theroseline.co.uk/index.php?main_page=infopages&pages_id=39

Bernard of Clairvaux entered the monastery in the early 1110s with 30 companions and helped the rapid proliferation of the order. By the end of the 12th century, the order had spread throughout France and into England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Eastern Europe
and Melrose abbey

Holly Dolly some legends believe that a group of Templars escaped to Switzerland...which is interesting that the Vatican
had the Swiss Guard as his personal body guards

Pierre d'Aumont fled to Scotland WITH the Preceptor of Auvergne. I like your little three card trick here. At no point did anyone say that Pierre d'Aumont was the Preceptor of Auvergne. Mackey said that Peter d'Aumont, (COMMA)the Provincial Grand Master of Auvergne with two Commanders and five Knights LANDED on Mull. One of course has to define where the borders of Scotland and England were in the early 14th century.

Nice try, No banana.



You don't spend ANY time. All of your time is spent trying to belittle everyone who disagrees with you. Frankly that shows either a distinct inferiority complex (you have to continually try to prove yourself to yourself) or you're in this as a shill.



I know how it works. You're here to divert any discussion not sanctioned by your masters.



I gave you my source Albert Gallatin Mackey 33 degree Scottish Rite Freemason (interesting title that Scottish Rite Freemason - Why SCOTTISH Rite?). You see I don't mind bringing up the story from Mackey but you answered in a way that plays down the whole thing and failed to mention the source of the story that the Templars who LANDED on the Island of Mull [Argyle]. I'm giving you the benefit of doubt that you actually knew this. I place things on here that I sometimes don't necessarily agree with, but it seems you were too afraid to bring up Mackey in case a discussion started. Which as you can it has.

NOW YOU'VE GIVEN ME THE COUNTER STORY (which I knew anyway) NOW GIVE ME YOUR SOURCE. WHICH IS WHAT I ASKED FOR?

i.e. THE PERSON WHO CAME UP WITH YOUR STORY. SHOW US HIS/HER CREDENTIALS.

I've removed the Eusebius quote about the Church lying in order to promote itself.

Well of course Iona is quite important in this whole saga. Iona and Mull are about 500 metres apart. A remnant of the Templars landed on Mull after the Holy Roman Church murdered de Molay.

The Vikings attacked the monastery on Iona with 160 ships in 795CE, then again in 802CE. after the Synod of Whitby. This is two years after they had attacked Lindesfarne. 160 ships is not a raid but an invasion.

These were not attacked when they were part of the Celtic Church.

This is news?

TCP

Roscoe


You just explained how the Scottish Rite got their name
from this legend of the Scottish Templars

Merci"

The Scottish Rite is a important group in America
The Scottish Rite is one of the appendant bodies of Freemasonry that a Master Mason may join for further exposure to the principles of Freemasonry. In England and some other countries, while the Scottish Rite is not accorded official recognition by the Grand Lodge, there is no prohibition against a Freemason electing to join it. In the United States, however, the Scottish Rite is officially recognized by Grand Lodges as an extension of the degrees of Freemasonry. The Scottish Rite builds upon the ethical teachings and philosophy offered in the craft lodge, or Blue Lodge, through dramatic presentation of the individual degrees.

The thirty-three degrees of the Scottish Rite are conferred by several controlling bodies. The first of these is the Craft Lodge which confers the Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft, and Master Mason degrees. Craft lodges operate under the authority of Grand Lodges, not the Scottish Rite. Although most lodges throughout the English-speaking world do not confer the Scottish Rite versions of the first three degrees, there are a handful of lodges in New Orleans and in several other major cities that have traditionally conferred the Scottish Rite version of these degrees.

There are records of lodges conferring the degree of "Scots Master" or "Scotch Master" as early as 1733. A lodge at Temple Bar in London is the earliest such lodge on record. Other lodges include a lodge at Bath in 1735, and the French lodge, St. George de l'Observance No. 49 at Covent Garden in 1736. The references to these few occasions indicate that these were special meetings held for the purpose of performing unusual ceremonies, probably by visiting Freemasons

But lets get to the myth and legend
The Jacobite myth ...of the Stuarts
James II died in 1701 at the Palace of St. Germain en Laye, and was succeeded in his claims to the British throne by his son, James Francis Edward Stuart (1699–1766), the Chevalier St. George, better known as "the Old Pretender", but recognized as James III by the French King Louis XIV. He was succeeded in his claim by Charles Edward Stuart ("Bonnie Prince Charles"), also known as "the Young Pretender", whose ultimate defeat at the Battle of Culloden in 1746 effectively put an end to any serious hopes of the Stuarts regaining the British crowns.

So men fought and died at the Battle of Culloden for Bonnie Prince Charles


The title "Rite of Perfection" first appeared in the Preface to the "Grand Constitutions of 1786", the authority for which is now known to be faulty.[11] It is now generally accepted that this Rite of twenty-five degrees was compiled by Estienne Morin and is more properly called "The Rite of the Royal Secret", or "Morin's Rite".[12] However, it was known as "The Order of Prince of the Royal Secret" by the founders of the Scottish Rite, who mentioned it in their "Circular throughout the two Hemispheres"[13] or "Manifesto," issued on December 4, 1802

A Loge de Parfaits d' Écosse was formed on 12 April 1764 at New Orleans, becoming the first high degree lodge on the North American continent. Its life, however, was short, as the Treaty of Paris (1763) ceded New Orleans to Spain, and the Catholic Spanish crown had been historically hostile to Freemasonry. Documented Masonic activity ceased for a time and did not return to New Orleans until the 1790s.

Francken traveled to New York in 1767 where he granted a Patent, dated 26 December 1767, for the formation of a Lodge of Perfection at Albany, which was called "Ineffable Lodge of Perfection." This marked the first time the Degrees of Perfection (the 4th through the 14th) were conferred in one of the thirteen British colonies. This Patent, and the early minutes of the Lodge, are still extant and are in the archives of Supreme Council, Northern Jurisdiction


the Scottish Rite did not come into being until the formation of the Mother Supreme Council at Charleston, South Carolina, in May 1801.

What is interesting is the degree names

The Knight of Kadosh
The Knight Kadosh degree is occasionally accused of being anti-Catholic. The 1918 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia stated that, in the ceremony in use in the Southern Jurisdiction of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite in the United States, purported to have been written by Albert Pike, the Papal tiara is trampled during the initiation.[14] This allegation does not appear in any subsequent editions of the Catholic Encyclopedia,[15] although it was repeated by Father William Saunders in the Arlington Catholic Herald in 1996

Neither the Catholic Encyclopedia's nor Father Saunders' account agrees with Pike's ritual, which includes neither trampling or stabbing a skull and no mention of papal tiaras at all.[17]

Pike's book Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry does mention hostility to the papal tiara by the historical Knights Templar when discussing the Kadosh degree;[18
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Kadosh

I don't want to take away from Bill's thread
but
What is fascinating Bill
and Roger is that a legend and myth of the Templars fleeing France from persecution of the monarchy and Vatican
and bringing their treasure from the Holy Land with them
would land smack dab in the Freemasonry secret society levels of degrees and mystique
Scotland taking part in that mystique with the Jacobites persecution
all landing up in America...to become one of the most powerful world wide secret organization over the span of hundreds of years

Fascinating!!! and all based on a legend and myth
This is a incredible example of how a myth can be so powerful
that it can change the world. And of course anything that was authentic would help enhance the myth

As a Mason goes through the 32 degrees of the Scottish rite, he ends up giving worship to every Egyptian pagan god, the gods of Persia, gods of India, Greek gods, Babylonian gods, and others. As you come to the 17th degree, the Masons claim that they will give you the password that will give him entrance at the judgment day to the Masonic deity, the great architect of the universe. It is very interesting that this secret password is "Abaddon".

is this true?

What I find fasinating Lov, is that nary a Templar was tried by Scotland, and the Templars knew they wouldn't be.

Keep in mind what was happening in Scotland at the time. They had just had their kingship tossed up for grabs after 200 years of succession; England's Edward I had stepped into the gap and taken over, but died in 1307, leaving the feckless Edward II flailing about; Robert Bruce had just offed John Comyn in 1306 and started to reassert the Scottish throne; he was excommunicated for that, so he was independent of the Pope's bidding.

But the ecclesiastical structure of the country wasn't excommunicated or independent of the Pope's bidding.

And yes, there was a trial held in December 1309 at Holyrood Abbey, where two Templars were put on trial, Walter de Clifton and William de Middleton. Forty some-odd witnesses - including Henry St. Clair of Rosslyn - lined up to give testimony against them, but none of it added up to heresy and so they weren't condemned.

TCP

Yes, but it was a trial under english control not scottish as Edward II had just invaded southern Scotland, Holyrood was under english control in 1309. The Scots did not arrest the Templars.
The witness the Sinclairs gave was that as the Templars had lost the holyland they must have not been good christians.
Of course this would have only applied after the loss of Acre in 1291, for the century before that they probably got along.

btw, I believe William de Middleton was an ancestor of Kate Middleton.

Pretty Kate's family were Templars ....ahhhh


http://www.masonicnetwork.org/blog/hist ... -scotland/
The style of fighting employed by Bruce's Cavalry was remarkably similar to that of the Templars and the tactics employed bore the hallmark of Templar strategy.

One of the many Holy Relics of the time The Brecbannoch, a very large battle standard, appears at the Battle of Bannockburn carried by Henry de Monymusk. This was given to Henry prior to the Battle, by the Abbot of Arbroath, to be kept in perpetuity by his family. The Brecbannoch was one of the more important Scottish relics of the Middle Ages. Henry also acquired the lands at Forglen as part of the Brecbannoch's dowry. The Templar holdings in Scotland not acquired by the Hospitallers were given by Bruce to his loyal followers, who previously had not held property. Many Templars were the younger sons of the existing Nobility, and since the life of a Knight was a far better option than taking the cloth to be shut up in a closed Monastic order, they joined the Order of the Temple.

By 1320 King Bruce was back in Papal favour and he considered it politic to be seen to be observing the Papal Decree. In order to ensure the continuing liberty of those Templars loyal to his Cause he formed the Royal Order of Scotland: This Order, like the modern Knights Templar, continues to this day.

There is a difference between
York Rite and Scottish Rite
York Rite is Christian all about religious
Scottish Rite is all religions just believe in God...individual rights and freedoms

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pelegrino/1408771766/

This 8th century reliquary is thought to be the Brecbennoch that held the relics of St. Columba and went into battle with Scottish armies as a talisman of divine protection.

Well Lov, it is certainly true that history is written by the winners, and also true that there were not "supposed" to be any Templars, other than the two on trial in Scotland at the time.

Which is, of course why Scotland would be the one safe haven in all of Europe for escaping Templars as it was Clement V that ordered the arrest of all the Templars in Europe, and it is a fact that many escaped. Also, with some 100 holdings in Scotland, it would seem that there would have been more than two Templars there in 1309.

In about the year 1187, William the Lion granted part of the Culter lands on the south bank of the River Dee, Aberdeenshire, to the Knights Templar and between 1221 and 1236 Walter Bisset of Aboyne founded a Preceptory for the Knights Templar. In 1287 and 1288 they built a Chapel dedicated to Mary the Mother of Christ, known as St Mary's Chapel and in November 1309, the name of a William Middleton of the “Tempill House of Culter” was recorded

The Knights Templar had considerable possessions in the County of Nairn, or Moray, in 1296. The following extract is taken from The History of Nairn: "...There is a writ extant granted in their [the Knights Templar] favour at Berwick, addressed to the Sheriff of Invernairn to put them in possession of their lands, they having made submission to Edward I. This was no doubt done. From the deed of conveyance of the Temple lands in the North from Lord Torphichen, the last Master of the Order, it appears that the following were the lands held here "Those two roods of arable land lying within the territory of the Burgh of Nairn, in that part thereof called [blank] possessed by John Rose, burgess of Nairn, and his sub-tenants; those two roods of arable temple land and house lying within the said territory of Nairn, possessed by Hew Rose of Kilravock and his sub-tenants; all and haill those our temple lands called the lands of Pitfundie lying in the said Sheriffdom of Nairn, betwixt the strype that conies from the lands of Brodie on the east, the fludder or myre upon the south side of the common muir called the Hardmuir Map on the south side, the lands of Penick Map and wood of Lochloy Map on the west, and the Euchcarse of Culbyn on the north, for the most part possessed by the lairds of Brodie, and their sub-tenants." They had also lands at Ardersier Map, which are designated in old charters as Temple Land, Temple Cruik, Temple Bank, Bogschand. They lay partly in the vicinity of the town of Ardersier, between Connage Map and the sea, and between Flemington and the sea. A charter granted at Nairn refers to the locus trialis at Ardersier, doubtless an ancient place of trial by "wager of battle." The Temple lands of Ardersier were held by Davidsons and Mackays as portioners. They were acquired by Cawdor in 1626. The Temple lands at Brodie and elsewhere appear to have been disposed of about the same time, as in a Brodie, charter of date 1626 the lands of Pitfundie are included in the Brodie estate.

I read that one of these properties was 8,500 acres that is property

In 1312 by the Papal Bull "Ad Providam" all assets of the Order of the Temple were given to Knights Hospitaller or Order of St. John except for Spain where they were succeeded by the Order of Montesa the Order of Calatrava, from which its first recruits were drawn, and Portugal where they became the Order of Christ and it has been claimed that in Scotland the Order combined with the Hospitallers and continued as The Order of St John and the Temple until the Reformation, though there is no evidence to that effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar_in_Scotland
Royal Order of Scotland
The Royal Order of Scotland is an honor society linked to Freemasonry

The 8500 acres were at Maryculter on the south bank of the River Dee. The Pope split the Culter lands between the Abbey of St. Peter on the north bank and the Abbey of St, Mary on the south bank.

this is a 32 POINT Compass dates back to Portugese sailor

a 32-point compass rose from a chart by Jorge de Aguiar (1492), the oldest personally signed and dated Portuguese nautical chart

Scottish Rite freemasonry has 32 degrees with the highest 33

the first letter of the main winds are composed to form T (e)mplos an ancronym of the Knights Templar navy

While that is true, it is also true that they were supportive of Bruce's efforts. My larger point was really just that in this very specific period, Scotland was extremely "up in the air" in terms of all alliances and commitments, so it doesn't surprise me that there was no strong move against Templars given the power vacuum, particularly if their services were needed.

I knew I'd regret including that detail...

TCP