Arcadia Discussion Zone

Weren't the Templars in effect "closing up shop" outremer? It seems to me that at this exact time, the executive staff, payroll and security were basically returning to Europe and probably weren't entirely sure which direction to move next, dependent on the result of meetings with the powers that be. In other words, they had lots of knights and treasure, because they were in transition (wasn't there even discussion of establishing their own state?).

I think they did.

hope Sparty doesn't see that

Yeah, horses and armor are so effective for sea battles.

TCP

The Templars had set up their Outremer base in Cyprus after the fall of Acre in 1291, and in fact had supported a coup there in 1306 that replaced the king, Henry de Lusignan, with his brother Amalric, who was more favorable (or perhaps just more compliant) with Templar aims to expand their holdings on the island. They had no intention of leaving Cyprus.

TCP

Like I said the other stuff just came with, you know the horses and armor!

At least you're consistent, Bill...

TCP

I think it is a matter of degree. The Templars originally owned Cyprus, but quickly gave it up to the de Lusignans after a short time. They definitely maintained a few strongholds there and I'm sure it was considered strategic, but I'm not sure it was intended as the ongoing "home office" still in 1307.

Like I said the other stuff just came with, you know the horses and armor![/quote]

At least you're consistent, Bill...
TCP[/quote]

Yes and so are you, though I should add, that the 60 knights as protection from the Moors was simply listed by me as a possibilty, as there other possible reasons for a show of force. But lets assume he thought the presence of Moors to be enough of a threat to require some protection, what would you expect him to do, perhaps enlist a navel destroyer?

All that remained of the Moorish presence in Spain by 1307 was the Emirate of Cordoba, which had been a client state of the Kingdom of Castile since 1238.

Anything else you'd like to try, Bill?

TCP

Yes, more than a century before the events we're discussing so I'm not sure how that's relevant.



Cyprus had become the most important commercial hub in the Mediterranean by that time, and the Hospitallers, finding Cyprus to be too full of entrenched Templars, had already launched a military operation to take Rhodes and make that island their home base. Highly doubtful that the Templars - who were all about commerce by that time - would have ceded an advantage like that, nor would it have been in their interests to support a coup the year prior to their downfall in favor of a new king beholden to their military might if they were intending to leave.

TCP

Why don't you try again Tim, as both Gibraltar and Granada were in Muslim Hands in 1307. To sail a vessel in 1307 through the straits of Gibraltar, you would have to pass between two Moorish areas.

Why don't you try doing a little reading on the Reconquista, Bill? You're clearly in over your head (again)...

TCP

Please publish the part about Granada being under Muslim control until the 15th century

Here - courtesy of Wikipedia (no use bringing out the good stuff)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Granada

Emirate of Granada

Tributary State

With the Reconquista in full swing after the conquest of Córdoba in June 1236, Mohammed I ibn Nasr aligned Granada with Ferdinand III of Castile in 1238, thereby creating a tributary state, or taifa, under the Crown of Castile. Granada remained a tributary state for the next 250 years, with Nasrid emirs paying tribute to Castilian kings mostly in the form of gold from present-day Mali and Burkina Faso that was carried to Iberia through the merchant routes in the Sahara. The Nasrids also provided military assistance to Castile for its conquest of areas under Muslim control, most notably Seville in November 1248 and the Taifa of Niebla in 1262.

In 1305, Granada conquered Ceuta, but lost control of the city in 1309 to the Kingdom of Fez with the assistance of the Crown of Aragon. Granada re-captured Ceuta a year later, but again lost it in 1314. Granada again held the city from 1315 to 1327. In 1384, Granada again re-took Ceuta but lost it definitively in 1387.

Granada's peace with Castile broke down on various occasions. Granada lost territory to Castile at the Battle of Teba in 1330. In 1340, Granada under Yusuf I supported the failed Marinid invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, which ended at the Battle of Río Salado.

Regional Entrepôt

Granada's status as a tributary state and its favorable geographic location, with the Sierra Nevada mountains as a natural barrier, helped to prolong Nasrid rule and allowed the Emirate to prosper as a regional entrepôt with the Maghreb and the rest of Africa. In fact, Granada was a prosperous city during the Crisis of the Late Middle Ages when much of Europe stagnated. Granada also served as a refuge for Muslims fleeing during the Reconquista. Regardless of its comparative prosperity, intra-political strife was constant, skirmishes along the border occurred frequently and territory was gradually lost to Castile.

Granada was tightly integrated in Mediterranean trade networks and heavily financed by Genoese bankers aiming to gain control of the gold trade carried in through Saharan caravan routes.[1] However, after Portugal opened direct trade routes to Africa by sea in the 15th century, Granada became less important as a regional commercial center. With the union of Castile and Aragon in 1469, these kingdoms set their sights on annexing Granada.

(The Kingdom of Fez is what lay on the African side of the Straights of Gibraltar. An entrepôt is a trading hub, in this case, trading between Europe and North Africa.)


TCP

????

On January 2, 1492, the last muslim ruler in Iberia, Emir Muhammad XII surrendered complete control of the Emirate of Granada to Ferdinand and Isabella I, after the last battle of the Granada war.

Ibane Batuta, an authentic historian visited the kingdom of Granada in 1350. He discribed it as powerful and self sufficent in its own right, although frequently embroiled in skirmishes with the kingdom of Castile.

The fall of Granada [1492] has a significant place among the important events that mark the latter half of the Spanish 15th century. It completed the reconquista of the eight hundred year long moorish occupation in the Iberian Peninsula.

Gibraltar fell to the forces of Ferdinand IV of Castile and James II of Aragon in August of 1309, and was certainly under moorish control in 1307. The moors regained Gibraltar in 1333, and in 1374 it was handed over to the moorish government of Granada. The end of moorish Gibraltar came in 1460.

Now, back to de Molay passing through the moorish controlled straits of Gibraltar, and perhaps thinking that he might need some armed men to accompany him and the Templar treasure from Cyprus.

btw, a simple, I guess I was wrong, would be sufficient.

You really are a spectacle, Bill. But as I've said before, I don't show you up for your benefit, you're way beyond saving.

TCP

I get it now, you don't have the ability to admit you are wrong

Because I'm not wrong. The Emirate of Granada was a tributary or client state of the Kingdom of Castile in 1307 (and had been since 1238), there were no open hostilities between the two states at that point in time and, in fact, Granada was a key trading partner between Europe (via Spain) and North Africa. The Muslims on either side of Gibraltar weren't attacking European ships going through the straights at that time.

Your oversimplistic understanding of history doesn't permit you to consider any scenario beyond Christians and Muslims in a constant state of war in this period. Sorry to break it to you but you're out of your depth, as usual.

TCP

This is the statement you took issue with, except for the IMHO on why he had the 60 knights with him, am I wrong or right?

I have no reason to disbelieve that Molay was traveling with the gold, silver, and 60 knights with horses, squires and gear. I have every reason to discount your "HO" that he traveled by ship from Cyprus directly to La Rochelle with said accompaniment because of a Moorish threat sailing through the Straights of Gibraltar, primarily because (a) there was no threat at that time (relations and trade between Castile, Granada, and the Kingdom of Fez on the African side being stable) and (b) the equipage as described suggests an overland route.

TCP

Than we can at least agree that the coast of africa and the coast of spain were moorish.

Are you for real? Did I say they weren't?

TCP

For you, Bill, via Crow's pointer to Lorrain, "Entrance to La Rochelle Harbor" - strangely impressionistic this one, more like Monet:

Thanks Caelum, I do have copys of some awesome paintings of La Rochelle Harbour from the 14th century. Did you know that the name, La Rochelle is the feminine form of "rock", as in upon this rock I will build my church? Those towers are still there, although in a slightly different form. Maybe Lov is right "there are no coincidences".---Bill

btw, I do have a copy of that one, Claude Lorrain, 1631