Arcadia Discussion Zone

That's on YOU, my friend, because you ASSUMED I was working from Read when I wasn't.

TCP

Absolutely, people do have a choice, and if their choice is to read a history book, then they also deserve to know how "historical" their book of choice is - or isn't. I think it's a pretty safe bet that people wouldn't buy "The Hooked X" because they've heard it's shoddy, don't you?

TCP

No, you quoted "Addison" same as myself. Because you couldn't seem to get it right, I ask if you were using "Read's" version (btw pg. 242), but then you quoted "Addison's" again, to in effect prove me wrong. So what are you trying to do with this last statement? You are attempting to throw off your mistake in intepretation. Are you not allowed to make a mistake, Tim, and why is that?---Bill

TCP who makes the decision the work is shoddy

These legends have been out there
yes the Reader decides
This is an example of where there is arguments between research scientists
Sandy
I'm glad you had fun with him because I LOVE his work
What I love about his work is he identifies the TEMPLARS and the Cistarians as the ones involved in the RuneStone
It brings the legend to life of the Knights coming to America and claiming it
And if they came here then they may have brought the treasure they feared would fall in wrong hands

I just did, didn't you know that was my post?



Yeah, for all of twenty-odd years! Ancient stuff!



You mean historians and geologists?



Based on zero evidence, and a strong desire to make a name for himself in a field he knows little about aside from what he reads in genre pseudohistories.



Sandy, have I made my point...?

TCP

Tim in the above quote from Barber,he says.. which must have included the Templar of Tyre....etc,does this mean he was assuming this or was it a certain fact?To me it appears he is assuming this is what happened,or am I wrong?

Historians and geologists
Wolter was hired in 2000 by the Runestone Museum to conduct a forensic geological investigation of the artifact. The Kensington Stone was brought to his company, American Petrographic Services in St. Paul, for the investigation. Using both transmitted and reflected light micorscopy, scanning electron microscopy and elemental analysis, he and his staff found mica degradation on the man-made surfaces. Wolter reported that his investigation clearly indicated the inscription had weathered at least 200 years after carving[1]. Wolter became intrigued with the Kensington Stone, and based on his geological findings and additional research, has become a dedicated supporter of its authenticity.

In his 2009 book The Hooked X Wolter claims that the stone was made by Viking Knight Templars in 1362, 50 years after the dissolution of the Knight Templars and several hundred years after the end of the Viking age. He also claims this expedition created maps that helped Columbus find his way around the West Indies in 1492.[2]

a "claim of acquisition," covering the Mississippi, Missouri and Red River watersheds.

"What's in the history books, most of it is nonsense. It'll come out, eventually. We just have to push for it, and the light bulbs will come on."

TCP your "stuck in old paradigms of history,"

http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_74e2b1f8-bad6-11de-a12b-001cc4c002e0.html

It is important to call claim to the land ...so what they buried
They owned

And he should have stopped there, as that was the limit of his expertise.



And I guess it takes a geologist to make this determination, is that it Lov? I work in finance, maybe I should try my hand at brain surgery. Waddaya think?



Translation: history is a moving target and anyone can run roughshod over it so long as there are gullible people who buy their books.



If being "stuck" means having respect for the historical record and not taking the word of unqualified pitch-men for granted, I'll cop to that. But by that same token, I don't have to have a background in forensic geology to pronounce Wolter's investigation of the Kensington Runestone to be fatally flawed, as his training and professional background must mean he's stuck in "old paradigms."

TCP

I would call it a qualified assumption. Don't have Barber's thoughts to refer to, but this quote from Paul Crawford's The Templar of Tyre: Part III of the 'Deeds of the Cypriots' is reflective of academic consensus:

The author (i.e., the Templar of Tyre) then notes that some Templars, including the next master, Theobald Gaudin, were sent out of the doomed city to Sidon. His description of the events of the last ten days of dying Acre loses so much detail and accuracy compared to the account prior to that point that it seems almost certain that he accompanied these refugees. Indeed, if he had not, he would surely have perished with the thousands who died when the last centre of resistance, the Templar stronghold, fell on the twenty-eighth of May. At the least he would have been captured, but the text gives no indication that he was.

From Sidon he appears to have gone, with other refugees, to Cyprus, and after this his association with the Templars appears to have ended, a fact which almost conclusively demonstrates that he was not, in fact, a professed Templar brother.

TCP

I quoted Addison for one simple reason - to show that you were misquoting him. I guess you think no one checks your work, is that it?

TCP

No, Tim, you misquoted Addison, I guess we will have to do this again. If you don't let me get away with anything then you cannot either. Of course the point I was making was not necessarily that important, but I will post your quote of Addison's again and you explain how the Temple at Acre wasn't under seige when some of the Knights with their treasure escaped (according to Addison) .---Bill

Tim, now show me in the above quote where it says the fortress was unguarded.---Bill

quote by Michael Haag, "the Templars"

pg. 138, "Most of the Templar's imports such as horses, iron and wheat came by sea. At first the Templars contracted with commercial shippers and agents, but early in the thirteenth century they began building up a fleet of their own"

pg. 139, "Their major port of call in France was Marseilles from where they shipped pilgrims and merchants to the East."

also pg. 139, " The Templars also built ships in European ports, everywhere between Spain and the Dalmation coast."

My purpose here is to first show how many of the authors of Templar history believe that they did indeed have a fleet in every sense of the word, and then I will show how much of this fleet came to be in "La Rochelle".---Bill

Let me take you back to our original contretemps, Bill:



And now, the citation from Addison (your source, my emphasis):

"A guard of three hundred Moslem soldiers, charged to see the articles of capitulation properly carried into effect, was afterwards admitted within the walls of the convent. Some christian women of Acre, who had refused to quit their fathers, brothers, and husbands, the brave defenders of the place, were amongst the fugitives, and the Moslem soldiers, attracted by their beauty, broke through all restraint, and violated the terms of the surrender. The enraged Templars closed and barricaded the gates of the Temple; they set upon the treacherous infidels, and put every one of them, "from the greatest to the smallest," to death. Immediately after this massacre the Moslem trumpets sounded to the assault, but the Templars successfully defended themselves until the next day (the 20th.) The Marshall of the order and several of the brethren were then deputed by Gaudini with a flag of truce to the sultan, to explain the cause of the massacre of his guard. The enraged monarch, however, had no sooner got them into his power than he ordered every one of them to be decapitated, and pressed the siege with renewed vigour."

Now, you show me where in this source - your source - that it says that Gaudin and his contingent slipped away from the Templar fortress while under guard. You can't, because your source very clearly says that the Muslim guard had been massacred, the gates were locked, the siege was renewed, the Marshall and his deputation went to the Sultan the next day under a flag of truce, while Gaudin and his contingent slipped away under cover of darkness while the remaining Templars fended off the siege for several more days.

There was no Muslim guard when Gaudin fled. Now prove me wrong.

TCP

Aha, I see the problem, you do not know what a seige is "and the seige was renewed".---Bill

I understand perfectly well what a siege is. It's a little late for you to change course, however compelling it must be for you at this late juncture to try to save face. So if you meant to say "under siege" rather than "under guard" perhaps you should take ownership of your mistake instead of trying to fob it off on others.

Do you understand the difference? "Under guard" implies "in custody", i.e. the battle is over; while "under siege" means the battle is still being waged. Not the same thing, although I'm sure you'll now try to assuage your embarrassment by chalking it up to the same outcome.

TCP

guard: to watch over to prevent escape
So if, say a fort is under siege, you are saying it isn't being guarded, so at night when the siege forces go to sleep the combatants within can do whatever they like, go outside to the bar, ect. The original statement was that the Templars couldn't have escaped their headquarters in Paris because it was under guard, or something to that effect. I don't even remember who said it now, you or Roger. Now we know the Templars were not actually under a guard they were supposedly being watched, as they had not been arrested yet, which would mean, being guarded. So I brought up this scenairo at Acre where I said some escaped while actually being guarded or under siege. You don't think I read that the 300 man muslim guard that had been put over them were all killed. When a fort, city, encampment or ect. is under siege it would be considered as being guarded, if not what good would the siege be. Of course if the Templars in Paris had already been arrested and were under the direct supervision of an armed guard they wouldn't have been able to escape no matter how many secret escape routes they had, and the same at Acre.---Bill

The only ones ridiculing are you and Tim, and I must admit you are very good at it. You see zero similarities between these two circumstances, I guess I can understand that, I have listened to you enough on this forum to know how you work. Just for your information though, Roger, I am not going anywhere. I will stay right here and torment you, at least thats what you consider it. So what this means is that all I have to do is write what I believe to accomplish this? Wow!

You know something Roger, and you too Tim, this topic title is "Knights Templar" and continues with the basic subject matter "who were the Knights Templar and what did they really know? What did they find?" according to you guys they didn't know or find anything. I believe your argument should be with whoever started this topic, because it is here and I have some ideas, and as you have well said Roger I am not alone. I hope it doesn't do any good, but if I felt as strongly as you do I would petition to have this topic removed.---Bill

The stone is now in the Runestone Museum in Alexandria, Minnesota, near where the stone was found.

Update: At a 2000 conference in St. Paul, attended by archaeologists from about 20 states and three Canadian provinces, a Minnesota geologist and a Wisconsin chemist presented what they say is indisputable evidence that the runestone inscription is "real" and old, probably from the 1300s. Scott Wolter, president of American Petrographic services, is a licensed Minnesota geologist. He was instrumental in analyzing the stone's surfaces with Barry Hanson, a chemist and project manager for nonprofit archeology group, Archeology ITM, and Paul Weiblen, professor emeritus in geophysics at the University of Minnesota. Weiblen published a 45-page report on the mineralogy of the stone, and concludes that the carvings are significantly older than 1898, when it was discovered

Dr. Richard Nielsen, president of Houston Texas-based Nielsen Engineering, studies linguistics as a hobby. His research involving 14th century legal documents known as "Swedish Diplomas", reveals linguistic evidence linking the writing style and expressions on the stone to the vernacular found in historical legal documents of the period between 1355 and 1375. During the 14th century many of the educated scribes died of the bubonic plague. Less educated writers introduced vernacular into the legal documents during that period

It is known King Magnus of Sweden sent that a party to Greenland in 1355. They never returned. It is very possible that these men were from that party. The stone bears the date of 1362. The transliteration of the text is generally accepted as:

"Eight Goths and 22 Norwegians on a journey of exploration from Vinland very far west. We had camp by 2 rocky islands one day's journey north from this stone. We were out fishing one day. After we came home we found 10 men red with blood and dead. AVM [Ave Maria] save us from evil."

The inscription along the edge of the stone says:

"Have 10 men by the sea to look after our ships 14 days' journey from this island. Year 1362."

then there is the Heavener Runestone

The "Heavener Runestone" of Oklahoma is a slab about 12 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 16 inches thick with runic letters spelling out the word "Gaomedat". By reversing two runes which appear to be different from the others, the inscription becomes "Glomedal", or "Glome's Valley". It could also be rendered "G. Nomedal". Nomedal is a Norwegian family name. Thanks to the efforts of Gloria Farley, the area surrounding the stone is now the Heaven Rune Stone State Park. The stone is now protected inside a building erected around it. The official theory is that the stone was erected as a boundary marker between 600 A.D. and 900 A.D

there is the Poteau Stone
like the Heavener Runestone. Four of the runes are duplicates of those on the Heavener Runestone, and three seemed to be variants of others on it. From the site of the Poteau stone, the Heavener Runestone on the side of Poteau Mountain lies about 10 miles to the southeast. The original sties of Heavener Runestones Numbers Two and Three fall in a line between them.

There are several more theories regarding the Heavener stones. In 1967, Alf Monge, a former US Army cryptographer asserted that the symbols are a runic puzzle, indicating a date, equivalent to November 11, 1012, St. Martin's Day, on our calendar. According to Monge, all of the cryptic runic messages in North American and those found in Stave Churches in Norway, are deciphered as dates of church holidays. He feels there is evidence that the creator of this puzzle and others found in North America was Eirik Gnupsson, known as Henricus, who was made Bishop of Greenland in 1112. Henricus was believed to have made several trips to Vinland and farther inland. Monge says Henricus left seven runic puzzles including the Kensington Rune Stone, the Heavener Rune Stone and the Spirit Pond Rune Stone

Monge's solution to the Poteau inscription is another date, November 11, 1017 A.D., exactly five years later than the date he said was on the Heavener Runestone. The seventh symbol on the Poteau Runestone is not in the standard runic alphabets but was a runic symbol for the numeral 17.

The early Norse calendar is based upon a cycle of 19 days, or Golden Numbers. The Younger Futhark was used to number those days. There are, of course, only 16 staves in the Younger Futhark, so three new symbols were devised to represent 17, 18, and 19.

there is the Shawnee Runestone
Yet another stone was found in Shawnee, Oklahoma. Its five runes, all from the 24-rune Elder Futhark, spells out "MEDOK." Medok is similar to Madoc, the name of a Welsh prince. Ancient records state that he came to America in the year 1170 A.D., then returned to Wales for ten shiploads of colonists which he led up the Mississippi River. However, the Welsh did not use third century A.D. Norse runes and the name Medok is not Madoc. Alf Monge studied the inscription on the Shawnee Runestone and said it was another Norse cryptopuzzle, giving the date November 24, 1024 A.D.
Shawnee Rune Stone

http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/americanstones.html

I get such a kick out of watching you twist in the wind. Give it up, Bill. I don't believe you're that linguistically challenged, you just look desperate to wriggle out of a bad mistake.

TCP

I must admit, Bill, this exercise for me is a bit like pulling wings off of insects trapped on flypaper. Too easy, I feel a bit guilty for taking such pleasure in it.

By all means, keep coming back for more. You really don't have anything left to lose at this point.

TCP

Get off your cross, Bill.

If it's becoming too frustrating for you to peddle your wares, that's your issue, not mine.

TCP

Zzzzzzzzzz.....

TCP

Roger is correct, I should be dating these events. The above should be dated from the late 12th century into the 13th.---Bill