Arcadia Discussion Zone

Trying to gather definitive information on the Templar fleet based at La Rochelle prior to the treachery of Phillip and Clement is seeminly very difficult. I do know that there were at least several galleys (I have the names of some of them) and also many shallops, which usually are not named. I also know that La Rochelle was a rather small port, and could not have supported several fleets. I also know that the Templar fleet left prior to the Templar arrest of 13 October, although the exact date also seems to be controversial (12 October does get thrown around quite a bit). Where did they go is another interesting question. Many think at least a few of them ended up in Nova Scotia (myself included), but an October crossing of the Atlantic would seem to be suicidal at the least, so where would they have gone at the time.---Bill

First down south, to Portugal where they never had any trouble at all.

Yes Portugal, It is understood many escaped to Portugal, but it was still RCC europe. These men, having eyes and ears within the hierarchey of the church evidently knew what Clement was going to do next almost as soon as he did. I am of course referring to Clement's order to arrest all Templars in europe issued on November 22nd. The only way one of these men could be assured of safety would be to deny being a Templar and be assimilated into some other order, or in some cases actually begin a new order.
What would the more militant members, who did not want to disband the order, or give up the orders assumed wealth do? I believe they would have fled to a temporary refuge for at least the winter of 1307-08, and then escaped to a safer haven.---Bill

The only problem with the idea that this started out as some sort of coordinated effort between King Philip and Pope Clement is the time lag. Philip issued his arrest order for France on October 13th, while Clement issued his order for the rest of Europe on November 22nd. No large-scale element of surprise there. Had Philip known ahead of time that Clement was going to do so, then he wouldn't have had to do anything on his own but take action on the Pope's order, thus alleviating himself of any "direct" responsibility. What would have been the point of allowing escapees to sound the alarm outside of France's borders?

TCP

Coordination: maybe, maybe not

Clement found out about the so called heresy of the Templars in a round about way on November 14th of 1305. The king issued the arrest order nearly two years later, on September 14, 1307, to be carried out on October 13th. The Templars learned of these impending arrests a couple of weeks prior to this date from an obscure chaplin near Marseille. With Marseille's close proximity to Avignon, and the fact fact that we never hear of De Molay learning of this treachery from within the palace even though he had relatives there it would seem Clement knew what was coming on the 13th.
As for Clements order of November 22nd, perhaps he and Philip did not get what they were looking for in October.---Bill

It is true that Esquieu de Floyrac was making these allegations to the kings of France and Aragon as early as 1305; however Clement assigned little credibility to the charges and did not care to pursue a formal inquiry. Philip's order to arrest the Templars in France forced his hand. There is no reason to assume Jacques de Molay was completely in the dark about Philip's intentions, but rather trusted the Pope to prevent any action from being taken.

TCP

I believe this is also an assumption, isn't it?



I think the correct wording here may be "hoped" instead of "trusted"

We do know that many escaped capture, even from Paris, perhaps they did not all trust (hope) on Clement. Of course De Molay did not escape capture and one has to wonder why, when many of the others did.---Bill

Tim, Where do you weigh in on the possibility of Templar vessels crossing the Atlantic. I'm not asking if you believe they did or not, just do you think it possible?---Bill

If it is, it isn't my own. Most published Templar histories written by scholars far more qualified than myself to assess documentary evidence from the period give that assessment. And, to my mind, the timeline of events argues in their favor.




Either way, there was an expectation on the part of the Templars that the Pope would stand by them - as he did in 1305 when the original charges were made against them.

TCP

I don't think it's impossible, if that's what you're asking. But I find it more plausible that they would depart for their nearest stronghold out of the danger zone, which would mean somewhere in Europe itself. Any "evidence" offered for a North American destination thus far has been based on very weak assumptions.

TCP

In the end, de Molay must have been informed 100 % - by Jean de Joinville who had the BEST connections on both sides, the king's and the templars'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_Joinville

Thanks for answering Tim, yes that is what I was asking. Also I do agree that the assumptions of a Templar excursion or excursions to North America are based on rather weak, but also some as yet uninvestigated evidence. Joan Hope of Charing Cross, Nova Scotia, claimed to have unearthed a 13th century Templar castle site. Many tools from this site have been dated to the correct time period. Joan died several years ago, but there are some who are carrying on her work. As of yet N.S. Musuems has not become involved and they probably will not be in the future. This site is only 20 miles up the gold river from the famous Oak Island. Mahone bay would have served as an ideal port. Joan never did accept the Sinclair story of Henry S. building a castle where she had discovered it, although she did not discount his possible voyage in 1398.---Bill

Well, this is just an assumption on my part so I don't want to present it as fact, but I suspect that the Nova Scotia Museum got skittish about investing more time and effort into promoting research on the "Sinclair Voyage" after the fallout following the 1998 memorial dedication. What was clear was that they didn't do a very thorough job of evaluating claims for and against the historicity of the narrative. In recent years (driven largely by the popularity of Templar historical revisions) there has been a blanket assumption on the part of many that any and all European archaeological sites along the upper Atlantic coastline of N. America point to the presence specifically of Templars, while largely ignoring, glossing over, or even incorporating what is known to archaeologists and historians about Norse, Portuguese and Basque excursions to that area which pre-date Columbus.

TCP

Having never looked at it from that perspective, what you say makes perfect sense. That also puts my own experience with N.S. Museums in a new light.---Bill

Sorry, I don't get it. Who was that goon and how much influence did the Colonnas have inside the Knight Templars' Order?

Roger, which goon? Nogaret or Joinville? Or both?

TCP

Joinville's uncle André was a Knight Templar and was preceptor of Payens. So I think he warned them - as he also collected aristocrat members for a kind of secret circle that was fighting the king's outrage against the Templars.

Roger what about Pierre Flotte ? He doesnt seem to be mentioned very often or at least not as often as Nogaret is......
After the death of Pierre Flotte at the battle of Courtrai Nogaret became chief adviser and evil "genius" of the king Philip the Fair but Pierre Flotte played an important part in securing that property (Jarez) for Beatrice de Roussilon.

Legists like Enguerrand, Philippe de Marigny, Pierre de Latilly, Pierre Flotte, Raoul de Presle, and Guillaume de Plassan, helped Philip to establish firmly this royal absolutism and set up a tyrannical power.

These legists were called the chevaliers de l'hôtel, the chevaliers ès lois, the milites regis; they were not nobles, neither did they bear arms, but they ranked as knights. The appearance of these legists in the Government of France is one of the leading events of the reign of Philip IV. Renan explains its significance in these words: "An entirely new class of politicians, owing their fortune entirely to their own merit and personal efforts, unreservedly devoted to the king who had made them, and rivals of the Church, whose place they hoped to fill in many matters, thus appeared in the history of France, and were destined to work a profound change in the conduct of public affairs."

It was these legists who incited and supported Philip IV in his conflict with the papacy and the trial of the Templars. In the articles Boniface VIII; Clement V; Molai; Templars, will be found an account of the relations of Philip IV with the Holy See; M. Lizerand, in 1910, has given us a study on Philip IV and Clement V, containing thirty-seven unpublished letters written by the two sovereigns. The principal adviser of Philip in his hostile relations with the Curia was the legist Guillaume de Nogaret. Renan, who made a close study of Nogaret's dealings with Boniface VIII, Clement V, and the Templars, thinks that despite his ardent profession of Catholic fidelity he was somewhat hypocritical, at all events "he was not an honest man," and that "he could not have been deceived by the false testimony which he stirred up and the sophisms he provoked." Nogaret's methods of combating Boniface VIII and the Templars are better understood when we examine, in Gaston Paris's work, the curious trial of Guichard, Bishop of Troyes, for witchcraft.

Groan...

Back in Douzetland...

TCP

no i dont go along with the things he wrote at all, or his theories about Jarez
I am interested in the hollowed out stones though (spare ampoules?) and what really happend to Guillaume so hence Jarez is interesting to me
And no i dont believe he returned to France either, he died in the holy land.

I think I read somewhere, that some of the Templars did join other groups, and may have in Spain and Portugal founded new orders. Maybe it was in the book The Warrior Monks.
Also they were said to have gone to Scotland and helped Robert The Bruce in one of his battles,however were there not Templars in Scotland already at the time?
As far as maybe going to the Americas, i would think it was possible for them,after all th Vikings did it,though for some reason the presence of Europeans or other groups, like the chinese and blacks in North,Central and South America keep getting swept under the rug.
Many say the stone heads of either Toltecs or Olmecs have negro features, etc,etc.
So it's entirely possible they came to Oak Island and buried something. Maybe some day the mystery will be solved.

Hello H.D., It is not my belief that the Templars burried anything at Oak Island. I think Oak Island may have been simply a port that had been established to serve the Templar village at Charing Cross, Nova Scotia. C.C. is about 20 miles up the Gold River from O.I.. I believe Charing Cross may have been established sometime prior to 1300, maybe even as early as 1290 as a future refuge site. "Joan Hope" discovered this village and had some of the tools dated to the 13th century. Recently an Oak Island researcher posted a theory that the strange earthworks on the Island (the five finger drains) were part of an early salt farm. With no immediate way to mine salt, such a system of retrieving salt from the ocean would have been necessary to preserve foods. John Bear Macneil discribes many customs among the Nova Scotia first Nations Peoples that connects them to the Knights Templar, and also the Cathars. Yes I do believe that some of these Knights went to other places in Europe, but not all of them. If there had been a bone of adventure left in them I believe some would have come to Nova Scotia.---Bill

They did indeed. Clement V issued the Papal bull Ad Providam in 1312 reiterating that although the Order of the Temple was dissolved, its knights were not released from their monastic vows. The bulk of Templar properties were turned over to the Hospitallers (though a good many of the choice bits wound up in the hands of Clement's nephews, as well as those of his successor John XXII) and a sizeable number of former Templars likewise joined the Hospitallers, or other orders (St. Lazarus, the Teutonic Order, etc.). In Portugal and Aragon, Templar holdings were rolled over into new orders, the Order of Christ and the Order of Montesa, approved by John XXII in 1316/17. Older Templars who were no longer physically fit to serve were allowed to stay on their former estates as pensioners. And some simply walked away to resume civilian life. And then there are stories of Templar survivals in France, the Frères Aînés de la Rose + Croix being one of these, and another unnamed group under the Count of Armagnac ("Larmenius").



Yes, there were Templars in Scotland, and the bulk of these joined the Hospitallers.

TCP

What Joan Hope "found" was the foundation of a manor house built in the Palladian style, which was popular in Britain in the 17th and 18th centuries. She built the "Templar castle" in her own fertile mind.

Given that the North Atlantic was well-traveled by Norse, Basques and Portuguese long before Columbus, it always strikes me as somewhat odd that any new discovery of pre-Columbian presence, settlement or artifacts is automatically attributed to Templars. I guess Templars are sexier.

TCP

Sorry Tim, I have studied Joans work extensively and I do believe she discovered a 13th century castle site. Her own notes, "13th C. By comparison with structures in Europe, castle with seven towers probably built ---------17th C. small mansion built on castle site, incorporating old Norse hall, wooden with two porticoes and gold dome, Palladian style; building E-shaped as in England at that time." I had promised I wouldn't subject her work to ridicule or argument so that is all I will say about her. There was an even earlier site then the 13th century one, and if you had ever studied the location it would be easy to understand why. As for the Templar part, I have my own very good reasons for believing that, and my research is ongoing in that respect. Yes you are right Templars are ( although I wouldn't say sexier), certainly more entertaining. I just wonder why it is so difficult for some to accept the possibility of some of these men escaping to North America.---Bill