Arcadia Discussion Zone

Oh right, and who would that be?

TCP

[quote="roscoe"

He was a Quatour Coronati Lodge member as is Michael Baigent. As I said before he was in charge of the hunt for Jack the Ripper, which is why he was never caught (erm! correction) brought to Justice.

[/quote]

Perhaps because he was a bloody useless copper ? or he didn't involve Sherlock Holmes in the case (if we go by Stephen Knight's enjoyable yarn) ?

Ah......that would be me I suspect. AFAIK I'm the only self-confessed Freemason on this site.
Certainly none of the signs nor handshakes any of you have given me make me think otherwise.

How about this: Tetragrammaton.

Nice try, but no cigar

It's okay. Brother Red Serpent must deny anyway.

Jeez, and they say us Maltese are suspiciously arcane!

TCP

Wrong hand. Wrong clavicle. Illusion to the A&AR and possibly the Teutonic Knights....it just won't do. Keine Zigarre.

Come out Come out where ever you are?


Whoop John
I congratulate you on your studies and I greatly admire your passion

TCP that you admit your affiliation is commendable
You are under obligation to defend your Order

RS thanks for freely admitting it
but you do give a OATH not to divulge correct?

You do understand my point gentlemen
there are members of this forum who belong to ORDERS or Masons
even a few Opus Dei members perhaps

But speaking of Oath taking
Official Swiss History dates the roots of modern Switzerland to 1291


http://www.bukisa.com/articles/286365_where-knights-templar-in-founding-switzerland#ixzz0oEwsCLKf

The ‘Bundesbrief’ had lain mouldering in an archive in Schwyz for centuries and had been widely ignored by everybody including historians. The document is basically a list of rights and duties of the population of the three signatory cantons in their relations with each other. It makes no claim to independence of the German Roman Empire. It is dated at the ‘beginning of August 1291’. It was in no way a unique document and most probably just a reiteration and elucidation of earlier documents now lost. Only two points out of many deal with armed conflict, all the rest concern civil matters.

Hans Schriber (translates to John the Scribe or Writer) collected the documents and legends relevant to the Swiss Confederation in 1470. He related the story of the oath of mutual armed assistance of the three cantons and dated it to 1307. The date comfortably coincides with Phillip IV of France move against the Knights Templar.

In 1307, King Phillip tried to have all Knights Templar in France arrested. He forced Pope Clement VII to disband the order in 1312 and had the last of his prisoners murdered in 1314.

In 1315, several hundred men from the three Swiss cantons faced the army of Duke Leopold of Habsburg made up of 2,000 knights and 9,000 foot soldiers. Leopold had set out on a punitive excursion on the behest of his brother, Duke Frederic of Austria and Styria. Together with his knights, he expected an easy little ride into Schwyz, some burning down of villages and farms, and then an easy ride back, as it was unthinkable that anybody but a knight would do battle against a knight. And the three cantons boasted no knighted local nobility.

Leopold was unaware of the fact that the Swiss had changed the rules. If the locals knew that as lowly farmers they were not allowed to touch the high and mighty knights, they didn’t care. Even worse, they had devised a new weapon that indicated their full intent and the change of rules: the halberd. Mounted on a long pole, the halberd is designed to bring down horses, pierce through visors, hack, slash, cut, and generally work as a tin opener on knights’ armour; a fitting weapon for the nation that would eventually invent the Swiss Army Knife. In a further change of rules, the Swiss didn’t take prisoners. Leopold lost more than 2,000 men that day, most of them knights, while the Swiss claim to have lost 12 men.
One wonders if a the Templars had a hand in the win it was around the turbulent times

but if you look at the oath of the Swiss guard it sounds familiar
"I vow to faithfully, honestly and honorably serve the reigning Pope [name of Pope] and his legitimate successors, and to dedicate myself to them with all my strength, ready to sacrifice, should it become necessary, even my own life for them. I likewise assume this promise toward the members of the Sacred College of Cardinals during the period of the Sede Vacante of the Apostolic See. Furthermore, I pledge to the Commandant and to my other superiors respect, fidelity, and obedience. I swear to abide by all the requirements attendant to the dignity of my rank."

Always the Oath of Obedience

Royston cave
But after lying undiscovered for at least 300 years workmen accidentally stumbled upon Royston Cave (August of 1742), hidden under a heavy millstone and a covering of soil. The cave's discovery created much excitement. Today it still awes and inspires visitors who can see carvings depicting, among other images, knights, Saint George and Saint Catherine of Alexandria. Before the brief persecution, the Templars, assuming the cave was theirs, had no reason to hide below the ground, and they had wealth and access to stonemasons if they required religious carvings. It is thus suggested by storytellers and a few historians that Royston Cave is evidence 'fugitive' Templars continued to meet and worship in secret after the disbandment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar_in_England

Ben Hammott has some great pictures of Royston Cave
http://www.benhammott.com/royston-templar-cave.html

Yep Lov, all degrees in Freemasonry demand an oath, this means I would break that promise if I were to broadcast what went on in the working of that degree. That oath does not however constrain me from commenting on the Craft where in my opinion the information provided is incorrect or otherwise, and I do need to be careful in that comment for obvious reasons.
Likewise if I were your personal physician, I am bound by an oath not to divulge to anyone by any means, any of your health details to which I am privy.
And in a perfect world (need to be careful here....muddy waters), the same applies to bankers, lawyers, accountants, financial advisors and so on.
So a pledge to keep a secret is not unusual. As to whether that oath bestows bias, I don't see how it cannot, same as belonging to a given religious faith, or football club.

Rs


You said it perfectly and great point RS
I just wanted to clear the air and just let people know that some of us can tell

Yeah, just as long as Malta keeps the checks coming...

TCP

The workings of the three basic Masonic degrees plus the Mark degree can be found in Masonic ritual handbooks which are sold by all good masonic bookshops. What isn't revealed in these books is the spelling of certain words included in the working of these degrees.

Masonry underwent a huge change after a dour ostracised Presbyterian named James Anderson came to London from Scotland, married a rich widow, took over a small chapel and proceeded to hijack masonry, probably for political reasons rather than his own.

The existence of the founding of a Grand Lodge, by inference united under a Grand Master, only appears in Anderson's Constitutions of 1738, alleging it occurred after four lodges amalgamated in 1716 at the Apple Tree Tavern, a momentous event that unlike other regular lodge meetings, failed to make the press of the day. The event to which Anderson referred actually happened in 1717 and was in reality simply a get together celebration by four lodges, a revival of old quarterly assemblies.

Other masons of the day were outraged at Anderson's hijacking of masonry. How dare a central body assume the right to govern all the lodges from a central position?

One major change was that a lodge no longer had to include at least one practising stone mason at its meetings. Masonry was at last divorced from the guild craft of Masonry, which had accepted erudite members of society into its numbers from times unknown, probably for reasons of encouraging patronage. This courting of nobility probably increased greatly in London, as the work rebuilding of London in stone after the great fire was starting to dwindle and become scarce.

Absolutely. Which is not the same as an individual violating a made oath, which is what we were debating.
There is also a mass of disinformation and bulltish on the www, especially from the U.S.

Is it permissible to give an example?



When you have a secrecy society this makes it difficult to find the truth ...its a secret
this causes disinformation and paranoia



Its so secret that if I told you I might have to kill you....
is it that serious?
But what if I got RS drunk one night and he told me all their secrets
Is that a violation of the Oath?
what happens then
Excommunication and do you take the Oath of Obedience
Do you have to Obey even if it may be wrong?

I have the greatest respect for the Templars ...their loyalty was amazing
Blind Obedience ... I didn't like how they made oaths to blindly obey

Certainly lov., try Boaz and Jachin.
You wanna test my liver's capabilities...???
You better have a fat chequebook lov.
We don't excommunicate, that's reserved for religious groups. We exclude.
Quite simply, I would have thought that if an individual considered a particular dogma wrong, there would be no question of taking an oath revering it. Therein lies the foundation of morality.

How many drinks would it take RS ?

Exclude ...



Definitely great point
But in taking a Oath of Obedience to the Grand Master or what ever you call him
that is kinda risky especially if the head guy is not moral

"Boaz" was the name of the left one of The Two frontal Columns of Solomon's Temple (the other being "Jachin
Strength and Beauty
sun on one side, moon on the other.
Empress or Emperor
Boaz represents the feminine, upper water and lower earth, while Joachim represents the masculine, upper fire and lower air. Together, through the union of inferior/superior (upper/lower), they form the lapis (philosopher's stone)
The two pillars, one white and one black, are the pillars that stood before the door of Solomon's Temple
. They represent polarity and duplication, united by the veil. The cross on the Priestess' chest is another symbol of unifying and balancing opposites.

Rossalyn chapel has pillars that are very special

Depends lov......what's your poison?



Kinda hard to attain that lofty position and be amoral, but I accept it's not impossible. My personal experience having "served" more than ten GM's in Craft Masonry in over 30yrs is that it ain't happened yet. This is, however, Australia. I get the impression that my fellow brethren in the 16th and 17th centuries in Europe were, perhaps, ahem, acrimonious and politically driven.

RS
is there no forgiveness in the order?
If you got drunk and told me all your secrets and then felt sorry for what you did
could the assembly forgive you your trespass?

or is it like the tile on the Mason floor Black or white ...no in between

Also I noticed in the 1800's and 1900's a person can be a Mason Scottish Rite Mason and a Moolah Shriner
taking so many Oaths
One didn't find any conflict of interest between organizations? the church did for they banned the Freemasons
Isn't it interesting that they call themselves Knights of Columbus
bound together by the ideal of Christopher Columbus, the discoverer of the Americas, the one whose hand brought Christianity to the New World.

Was that is why Columbus was pushed in history...he was a Catholic but was he a member of the Ancient order of Masons or the Order of the Fleece?
wouldn't it be ironic that the catholics made an order to avoid masonry of which their name came from a Mason?

what a circle

No forgiveness lov, and nor should there be. I would be branded "...a wilfully perjured individual, void of of moral worth...".
And if you can believe the antient penalties, in the past, much worse.
And as I implied in my previous post, one has to be very careful in interpreting and comparing past and present practices, and between constitutions from different countries, even within the same "orders".
My comments will always be from my own experience for many years in this country , plus from visiting when in the UK and SEA. My knowledge of American rites is second hand from fellow brethren who have experienced those rites personally, and reasoned deduction from various websites (mostly introduced to this forum by Roscoe).
Limited research on my part indicates that 17C Freemasonry in France in particular could be likened to a "fifth colomn", but I need to read up more on this.

Don't worry RS
I won't get you drunk Your safe
I do appreciate you talking to an outsider about it

"History is the lie commonly agreed upon," Voltaire

What is Masonry's goal? The New World Order?

Well lov, that would take a huge post, and this is a Templar discussion, so let's get back to that. Suffice it to say, peace and goodwill to all mankind (or womankind if you must), and a fulfilling life to my children and theirs, and a continuation of my current good health and SOH.
Selfish I know, but life is good thus far, and hopefully for sometime yet.
As Egi would say....."Echt fett"...or..."Machs gut".
If you're bored, research the Royal Black Orangemen....

I am not a mason but I know many personal friends and family who are. From what I can see and observe of these people is that, true to the spirit of freemasonry, they give in abundance to charity and often work tirelessly to make the world a better place in their spare time - healing, caring and giving.

My family has been on the receiving end of a mason's personal charitable nature. My 2 year old son's National Health service eye operation had been cancelled twice, each time on the day of operation. Knowing his eyesight was jeopardised for life if an operation was not performed very rapidly, the surgeon said he'd waive any personal fee and also find an anaesthetist to do likewise if I would pay for a day's care and the operating theatre in a masonic hospital. This I did. You'd have done it too if a loved one's eyesight was at stake. I hope.

I believe that in the UK freemasonry is one of largest charity fund-raising organisations in the country, quietly giving each year far in excess of any televised celebrity campaigns you might be aware of. It is my understanding that funds are given to organisations that may have been set up under the auspices of all the major faiths, so is impartial in that respect. 50% of Grand Lodge funds are donated to non-masonic organisations.

This behaviour does not seem to me to be consistent with an organisation that has some political agenda to establish a new world order, presumably for some kind of personal pecuniary gain. It may be that some masons do convene outside the lodge to discuss mutual business, but they do that in golf clubs and in any other place where friendships and associations are made.

Tony Blair's UK government, when it came to power, openly avowed to fight the forces of conservatism (by which it largely meant the class system). It started to fiercely attack two areas it saw as representing this: foxhunting and freemasonry.

A select committee was set up to investigate masonic corruption within the UK police and judiciary, headed by labour MP Chris Mullen, who admitted he hated masonry because he'd read Martin Short's anti-masonic book, Inside the Brotherhood. Wow, some expert.

In spite of the witch hunt and interrogation of those in the legal and police professions by the select committee, not a single case of corruption was brought to justice through the UK courts. What a waste of taxpayers' money.

I have a lot of sympathy with masons, who through their vows to their brotherhood, cannot reasonably defend themselves from the paranoia generated by outsiders.

I don't know what RS feels about what I say here. I absolutely respect his right to pursue his masonic life without persecution.

I could not have put it better whoop_john. Thankyou. Tell me, from what you posted, the masonic hospital was private, or state run?