Arcadia Discussion Zone

Speaking from experience, all I can say is; don't let 'em get you down.



I never have understood what a floor cloth is/was. It's not a rug

Again, I think of the weavers...is there a code in the weave...are the images just a cover?

The Sinclairs were the protectors of the gypsies...much more interesting field of research. Something about towers and such. The gypsies of Scotland were often found to be guilty of being "Egyptian" and sent to prison colonies for the offense. They had their own gypsy queen.

Well, after all, Texas is the state whose legislature, despite a budget deficit of something like $4 billion, recently approved $880 million for the re-write of all history texts to be used in their public schools to eliminate what they perceive as "liberal" bias in American history. Instead these texts will now promote the new Texas "truth" of the U.S. as a "Christian nation founded on Biblical law" with no "separation of church and state", slavery will now be referred to as the "Atlantic Triangle Trade" with no mention of actual human trafficking; Thomas Jefferson will be minimized, Joseph McCarthy lionized, Martin Luther King demonized, the John Birch Society canonized. And this comes on the heels of their last hatchet job on school science texts that rendered Darwin's theory of evolution as "disproven", climate change "debunked", and creationism branded as "scientific".

It is hardly surprising, I guess, that large-scale historical revision for political and religious agendas usually originates in places that have so frequently wound up on the wrong side of history.

TCP

So rather than educate yourself, you take a dismissive stance and decide that it's your right to interpret its use as you see fit?

TCP

yes Saint Clair protected the gypsies and housed them in the two towers
Robin Hood and Little John
that would be at Rosslyn Castle

the gypsies would perform plays for Sir William and his family

there is a legend of a great treasure that is buried in one of the vaults
it is under the protection of the Lady of the ancient House of St Clair
and when the trumpet blows she will make her appearance and mark the spot
where the treasure lies

I love this stuff

Of course, in your world it couldn't possibly have had anything to do with the fact that James was killed early in the development of Christianity. It would have to be a conspiracy to make your theories plausible.



"IF".... "huge IF"...

Another prime example of the BLL approach to "historical research methodology"...

TCP

Excuse me? I didn't realize I was being dismissive or that I interpretted it AT ALL. Please, show me where I did either. You are going to hurt yourself jumping to conclusions like you do.

Actually, I researched it fairly well I think....years ago.

http://www.psifly.com/cr2/index.php?topic=19582.0

It says something profound when even the Masons start rolling their eyes.



I've corresponded with Cooper - brilliant guy.



True, the date range for anything this recent is quite broad; and the radiocarbon dating won't tell us when the fibers were spun or woven into cloth.



That's big of him! Easy to be magnanimous when one is backed into a corner with egg on his face.



A broad historical time frame.



Wow, hermetic symbolism on an 18th century Masonic floorcloth - how inconceivable!



An illogical conclusion coming from a man who contends that Masonic and Templar symbolism is synonymous. But I guess it takes a Sinclair to make the distinction, huh?



That's the trouble when academics named Sinclair who are pushing a romanticised account of their own family history decide to use Masonic imagery to make their case - and run headlong into Masons telling them they're full of crap.



Well, they say that ignorance is bliss...

TCP

, I researched it fairly well I think....years ago

But thats just you looking at a bunch of lightweight websites, and thats IT!

Thats not what i call research. Really, it isnt.

You are also just rehashing a load of stuff someone else wrote.

Let me compare what i have done as a different example; I am currently investigating an ANIORT crusader from the Albigensian Crusade. This is so far what i have consulted to try and build up a picture of this person:

1) Yes, some web sites about the Aniort family, history etc
2) Published works by historians about: the Albigensian Crusade, giving me access to source documents from Medieval times
3) The Inquisition Reports from the Crusade
4) The history of Cathar castles
5) The history of Simon de Montfort
6) Primary documents about various persons from the Crusades: Olivier de Termes, le cathare et le croisé - Gauthier Langlois & Rapport du sénéchal de Carcassone à la Reine Blanche de Castille - Guillaume des Ormes, Arch. Nat J 1030 n°073.
Accounts taken from: "Canso de la crozada" - Guillaume de Tudèle, "Hystoria Albigensis" - Pierre des Vaux de Cernay and "Chronica" - Guillaume de Puylaurens.
7) Historians' accounts from the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries
8 ) Consulting those who know more about the Aniorts than me.
9 ) How they lives in Medieval times, transport, food, and how they did business.
10) the archaeology

Consequently, because i have been looking into this person for the last year, i feel i could write a book about him. Even when i read back over what i have written, i feel like i 'understand' this person. I actually felt sad when this person was forced to give his lands up to Guy de Levis. I read about his family nominating him to go and 'barter'. Later, i read he mounted a campaign to get his property back. I was actually willing him to win. How bizarre is that? And he was a practicing Cathar ..... so i have read about how these people lived. And why they chose to live like that. It all recently culminated in locating his 'personal seal' -- dated to around 1242. The engraving came from the Aniort archives that took me a whole day to locate, looking through reams of French texts, and i dont even speak that much French!!! I got the reference by trawling through 75 year old issues and tomes of SESA.

So, you can see how exasperated some people may get, when they see the little effort you put into your research and then based on that, the stuff that you decide is the 'truth' or not.
Lov does it as well. There doesnt seem to be any questioning on your parts, or formulation of ideas .... you just bandy about ideas of 'theres a story of a treasure buried in a vault', 'i dont know what a floor cloth is' etc.

Its not that i am a great researcher, and certainly many are better at understanding things better than me, but i want to know the truth as much as i can, by living and breathing it as much as one can from the modern living of the 21st century. For me that is getting into the manuscripts, reports and taking advantage of those academics that do help me to elucidate the times, and circumstances those before us lived in. And archaeology.
That does not mean, rolling over and believing everything i am told by the academics as many here seem to believe that is what happens.

Only with ALL the evidence,and that includes different types of evidence, on both sides of an argument, can you hope to formulate your own personal arguments and ideas. And then based on that you can say what your theory is

Perhaps we should invite Dr. Reumann to survey your performance here on Arcadia. Scroll up a few entries to where I point out your latest example of unsupported hypothetics.



Kind words from a "fellow traveler"... have you received any accolades from anyone outside of the Tabor/Jacobovici "History Channel" cabal? Or have you sold your soul for easy fame and fortune too?

TCP

Well, gosh, Dipity, all that "research" and, by your own admission, you still don't know what a Masonic floorcloth is. Why is that?

TCP

The difference here is effort - and genuine curiosity. I may not agree with all of your conclusions, Sandy, but one thing is clear - you immerse yourself in your subject and you raise legitimate questions for discussion. I can't ever fault you for lack of thoroughness, you do the work. Others are satisfied by turning up snippets on the Internet that feed their pet rationalizations and call it "research" - you're definitely not in that category. You need to give yourself more credit than you actually do, but your modesty is refreshing.

Keep it up.


TCP

You need to give yourself more credit

You havent read the article yet, Tim, you might think its crap

However, it was something i think that you said, vaguely, over a year ago ... that set me off on this track. So i can blame you ; )

But thanks anyway .... when i found the personal seal i was so happy. Silly really, but i was so happy : ) LOL. I still think the premise i started from is completely wrong .... but hey ....i'm gonna keep going.

Ok, i am going to watch the footie. I cant believe Brazil are OUT, wont be able to watch that KAKA anymore ....
So, who will join them, Ghana or Uraguay?
I hope its Ghana.



Edited to add: oh no, i just read Kaka is an evangelical christian. Oh dear. Cant have everything i guess

PS I can send you the Journal if you want as a freebie. I have about 4 or 5 pages to edit and then its going to printing. Only 18 months late, but hey, i kept on through all the troubles

Sandy that is AWESOME!!!! OMG ... write the book Sandy ...we need you
you can bring so much knowledge to just ordinary people

Ahhh TCP there are two radio carbon dates on the cloth one 18th and the other 15th
done by Oxford and Sinclair is historian credentialed I believe PHD from Cambridge
sorry if I'm wrong on that
it seems they believe that the pieces were sewn together
So what about the 15th century part

Sir Andrew Sinclair is a Knight Grand Cross in the Scottish Knight Templars. A member of Clan Sinclair and one of the driving forces in the Clan today, he is one of the world's leading authorities on the Knights Templar, the Holy Grail, and the Holy Grail of the Sinclairs - Rosslyn Chapel. His books include: The Sword and the Grail, Rosslyn: The Story of Rosslyn Chapel and the True Story Behind the Da Vinci Code.

Rosslyn served as a monument for three things: the Temple of Solomon, the Grail and the Garden of Eden.

Sinclair noted that an 18 ft. tall scroll, carbon-dated to the 15th century, contains a ground plan for the Temple of Solomon which also mirrors the design of Rosslyn. It's fairly certain that buried in the vaults below the Chapel are Templar records and relics, he said. However the Erskine family, the current owners, are not interested in excavating the Chapel at this time, said Pinkham.

Pinkham believes that the documents buried at Rosslyn would reveal the Gnostic lineage of Jesus' successors and other suppressed Gnostic concepts, such as being able to experience the divine without an intermediary. The two also spoke about the Shroud of Turin and the possible discovery of America in the 14th century by Earl Henry Sinclair.

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2007/01/22

Rev Jeff it seems perhaps Rosslyn may have information on James
Where does Joseph Arithmethea come in?



But looking at the Kirkwall Scroll
the angels are quite a trip

they are quite a mix of angels above and Pan below
and the pillar with the vine running around it
fits the Apprentice Pillar
which has some documentation about the legend
A previous minister at Rosslyn, the Rev. Thompson claimed that the bishop of St. Andrews, within whose diocese Rosslyn lies, was actually in Rome at the time when the chapel was nearing completion and obtained from the Pope a dispensation to 'reconcile Rosslyn' that is, to cleanse it from the pollution of some deed of violence committed within its precincts. 'The details of the particular circumstances that made it necessary to 'reconcile' Rosslyn are not given, but it at least seems likely that it may have been the one whose account has been so faithfully preserved. Further confirmation of the long lasting nature of the legend is given in an account now over three hundred and thirty years old:-

"Two Miles Further on we saw Roslen Chapel, a very pretty design, but was never finished, the choir only and a little Vault. The roof is all stone, with good imagery work; there is a better man at exact description of the stories than he at Westminster Abbey: this story is told us, that the Master builder went abroad to see good patterns, but before his return his apprentice had built one pillar which exceeded all that ever he could do, or had seen, therefore he slew him; and he showed us the head of the apprentice on the wall with a gash in his forehead and his master's head opposite him." Thomas Kirk, "Account of a Tour in Scotland" 1677.

Additional support for this puzzling story comes from the persistent tradition that before its completion, Rosslyn Chapel had to be re-consecrated.

that goes along with Lomas and Knight
the story of Hiram Abiff was actually based on the initiation ceremonies of the ancient kings of Egypt. They also came to the conclusion after analysis of the New Testament, the Gnostic Gospels, and Masonic ritual that Jesus and the original Christians were thoroughly different from what the Roman Catholic Church and orthodox Christianity has taught they were.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hiram_Key

It is alleged that the apprentice himself originally came from the Orkneys and the pillar for which he gave his life represents the Yggdrasil tree of Norse mythology, the world Ash which binds together heaven, earth and hell. The crown of this tree comprises the twelve constellations of the Zodiac, the spiralling branches symbolise the planets and the roots of the trunk dig deeply into the elements of the earth. At the bottom of the pillar the dragons of Neifelheim can be seen gnawing at the roots of the tree to rob it of its fruitfulness.

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/rosslyn.html

Joseph was a carpenter or was he a Mason this goes back way back ...and then Rev Jeff one wonders was James and the others trained in the craft

Considering that I am not a rich, titled, individual with access to wonderful libraries or the ability to travel over-seas I have done the best I could, with what I have. In southwest rural virginia the libraries don't have to many MS from the middle ages. Gosh, imagine that.

I'm sorry that I have sinned (missed the mark).

Is there anyway for me to be forgiven?

Hi Dipity,
Here are a few websites with old texts that you might find useful for research?
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html
http://www.bnf.fr/en/tools/lsp.site_map.html
http://www.wdl.org/en/
http://www.bl.uk/
That should keep you going for a while.
Regards
Nic

I am not a rich, titled, individual with access to wonderful libraries or the ability to travel over-seas I have done the best I could, with what I have. In southwest rural virginia the libraries don't have to many MS from the middle ages.

And you think i am titled, rich, with access to wonderful linraries, and the ability to travel oversees?
What was that you were haranguing others about, regarding making assumptions?

Do you think ANYONE has manuscripts on their doorstep and in their local libraries?

I am none of the above and i still manage it. And anyway, its the attitude.
You dont even acknowledge there might be other information out there that you are not privvy to, which would make you change your mind about something.

Its not about having money to do all that stuff.

Why do you have to be sacracstic all the time when someone says something to you? (Is there anyway for me to be forgiven?)

Oh shucks, i cant be bothered ...

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

They are book-marked.
(I'll be okay until this computer crashes too....I'm looking for a new one)

You pretty much called me a lazy, ignorant, ass that doesn't put any thought or effort into the research I do, and I'm just suppose to take it lying down?

I do the best I can with what I've got and I don't mind sharing what I have found along the way. I don't bash people over the head when they get something wrong. I don't stand from the position that I am 'above' anyone and therefore in a position to 'put them in their place' telling them what a shitty researcher they are.

The piece that I linked to was written several years ago and I have learned a great deal since then. However, I began in about the same place as lov....and ended at the same conclusion as TCP...I just thought it MIGHT help her in her discovery. Learning this stuff is a process. I'm just trying to be kind about it.

You pretty much called me a lazy, ignorant, ass that doesn't put any thought or effort into the research I do

And you admitted it.
And then made excuses about not being rich or titled.

And if you read what i wrote properly, you would see i wasnt saying that at all. But if you choose to look at it that way, thats your perogative.

Serendipity
your so Awesome
You keep up the Quest

And Nic what a gallant knight you are coming to a Lady's rescue

You are awesome!

Since we are talking about Knights in shining armor

William Scheves second archbishop of St Andrews resided in Papal court
Scheves was created Archbishop of Holyrood in 1478
According to Lesley's history of Scotland "the King now(after 1486) sent to Scheves to get special Papal priviledges;which freely and with humility were granted
In Lyons History of St Andrews
Scheves in 1485 went to Rome ...while he was in Rome in 1486 ...the chapel was finished but consecration was delayed because of the problem of shedding of blood

the Archbishop received the privilege of reconciling by proxy

Rosslyn chapel was reconciled by designated cleric by the Archbishop

I got a personal tour with Mary Dugan who lives in the town of Rosslyn
there is something about seeing things for yourself


I got plenty pictures outside the church but alas no pictures inside...some woman is suing the trust for taking a picture and hurting herself

I did learn when I was there that some believe that Scotland was the headquarters of the Templars

Aren't you not funny Roger
they do have the Stone of Destiny

Tim, now you are showing just how out of your depth you are in the realm of New Testament studies. James was killed no earlier than Peter or Paul.
What I expressed above is by no means a "conspiracy theory" or considered outre by mainstream scholars. The extremely conservative and highly respected scholars Richard Bauckham and James D.G. Dunn fully agree with this assessment.

Stick to researching your phony genealogy which you expect everyone to swallow. Now there's a conspiracy theory.

Gee, Wilson's book merely won the Tanenbaum prize in history and was shortlisted for the Cundill Award. Amazing how these conspiracy theorists get such high accolades from respected academic institutions.

So who can I cite next? Dr. Georg Feuerstein? Dr. David Nock? Dr. James Gardner? Dr. James Reitveld? Library Journal? Booklist? Publishers Weekly? How about Shimon Gibson, perhaps the top archaeologist working in Israel today? Your buddy Keith Akers? All have raved about the quality of my work. The citations are all out there.

But it doesn't matter, you will disparage them all because you simply wish to disparage me.

You must have some kind of inferiority complex going on that makes you act the boorish way you do to people you consider your intellectual inferiors, and which impels you to create phony claims of illustrious ancestry. People of genuine heraldry simply don't go around touting it!
You are no better than "Prince Michael of Albany" whom you love to disparage. In my business, this is known as psychological projection and it is sad.

Rev Jeff


Amen Rev Jeff!