Arcadia Discussion Zone

More commonly, they are used as a mark of cadency signifying the second son of an arms-bearer.

TCP

Do you see the "R"?

Then you have the sheperd pointing to the "R" in Arcadia in Poussin's painting...



An "R" at the end of the key...

And there are round "templar" churches with an "R" over the entrance.

I believe it may be a hint...especially when considering the letters PS...Q and R are the "not"....

Nonsense. Some of the many Templars who escaped death continued to play a role in the operative stone guilds and ecclesiastical associations of builders which the Templars, along with the Benedictines and Cistericans, helped organize and finance. These trade-based guilds eventually gave rise to the speculative Freemasonic lodges.

Well there it is Serendipity
great point
I have just comeback from Rosslyn

and Roger you ask how do people connect Templars to Freemasons
well that would be the Scottish Rite Freemasons

and the connection is the St Clairs Sinclairs

now before you get in a tizzy
I have a book written by Turnbull
I purchased there

Your absolutely right as well as TCP that Turnbull says there is no connection
What I read from Turnbull and may I say Bull is a perfect name
He is setting up such pathetic smoke
Because the Stone speaks it does not lie
that Saint Clair was a Templar Knight there is a stone there Serendipity has nicely show in her picture
william has documented that there were Templars in Scotland and he was one of them
in fact they were tried

by the way Turnbull said Templars were greedy SOB's cutting off poor Catherine's finger to get her lands
Templars were men and they could be corrupted but I was never a fan of Edward I so him giving the lands back to the family ...sounds like a nice historian smoke story too...isn't Edward such a nice fello unfortunately Actions speak louder than a historians love chant

Ya gotta read between the lines Ole chap

But here is the POINT
William St Clair was a Templar(stone says) ...he was fighting with the EXCOMMUNICATED King Bruce
Maybe the pope disbanded the Templars but the Templars who were majorly ticked off didn't disband
in fact they decided to fight(Vatican)
Bruce had a Templar Knight who fought with him at Bannockburn
it was William St Clair....he was a Templar Knight ...its on the rock
and yet Turnbull makes your point Roger that William was a Crusader not a Templar
but there is the grave and the rock that says William was a Templar(stone does not lie)
Wouldn't William's family know if he was a Templar?
So can you see why people are confused here... we have a Rock on a grave of a great man dedicated to his King (not his Pope)

Turnball goes into this whole smoke filled roundabout...in which William Saint Clair buys the Templar lands
and then guess what guys
King James Stuart supported the Scottish lodges of stonemasons
and the charters of 1601 and 1628 state that the Saint Clairs of Scotland are hereditary Grandmaster Freemasons

OMG how in the world could people connect Templars... to Freemasons
the Scottish Rite Freemasonry ...

Thanks to Turnbull ...and his smoke story I read between the lines and saw for myself the stone
William De Saint Clair Knights Templar
Saint Clairs hereditary Grandmasters

Scottish Rite Freemasonry is born or lets say transformed
alas Roger remember men are not infallible they are human unless your the Pope

Your problem is that you apparently don't understand English. I did not say "Cistercian and Benedictine Templars." I did not say Templars were "in operative stone guilds."

Oh lov...you were in Scotland? I'm so jealous.

Something else to point out....it is a key on the stone not a sword. Clan Donnachaidh is pronounced: donna key. They now go by the name Robertson and/or Duncan.

There were 3 different Robert de Bruce. Anytime, any of them got in trouble they turned to Clan Donnachaidh. The area of archeological and/or historical research has been flooded by a dam.

It is said, that Clan Donnachaidh is the clan that joined the fight late at Bannockburn, wearing guilles (sp) of white with a red cross....they found a really nifty stone on the way to the fight too...on the summer solstice.

There ya go Roger Dodger
ok put aside the Sin clairs....now are they the sinners clair ( I know your point)
they went from Saints to Sinners


but you aren't harking on the Saint Clairs.... connections to the Templars and Freemasons
we have that stone hmmmm
Turnbull has the AUDACITY to tell the Saint Clair's that their relative didn't know what he was

they put it on his frickin grave
Sir Henry Saint Clair testified in defense of the Templars at trial

on November 30 1736 33 Lodges met in Edinburgh and the Grand Lodge of Scotland was formed William Saint Clair of Roslin was elected the first Grand Master Mason

St Clairs and their ancestors have been recognized as hereditary "Grand Master Masons of Scotland" so saith the King James II Stuart in 1441 the original charter burnt in a fire at Rossalyn
but there are two 17th century charters held in Edinburgh by the Grand Lodge of Scotland


Then just take a tour of Rosslyn chapel there is the Apprentice Pillar and the story of the Apprentice being killed by his jealous Master
Maybe its not telling secrets of the Freemasons but that story of Hiram Abiff is a story that sounds familiar to the Rosslyn one

so lets scratch out the Sinclairs and stick to the connection Saint Clair...we are talking about Saints and Sinners


there is a bunch of smoke in this story
History is a pack of lies we play on the dead.

Voltaire

Yes, Karen Ralls pretty much threw cold water on the notion of the Sinclairs/St. Clairs "protecting" the Templars. Giving evidence at inquest against the Templars is more like it.

TCP

Prove it. You can't.

TCP

Prove it when these men were slaughtered tortured and their existence practically wiped off the Earth

No Rev Jeff just write the story and let the reader discern what the truth is
let Actions speak louder than the written history left by
the killers/or victors

Prove it that is what the Killer says when he walks away leaving no trace and smiles that grin "I just got away with murder"
Prove it and yet everybody there witnessed it but would be killed tortured and families destroyed if they told
that isn't a fair fight....and there is a reason it isn't fair because there is murder and theft and power struggles that must be kept hidden from the sheep only the privileged few
Just because one can't prove it doesn't mean it didn't happen


Let the reader figure it out and search for the Truth

and lets not forget the Girl Saint Clairs
Now Catherine Saint Clair
some historians write she was wife to Hugh de Payens
and Henri Saint Clair was right there ok call him a Crusader but he was definitely right in the Templar circle
the French side Saint Clairs
When Richilde, daughter of Henry the Holy and sister of Henry II, married the French nobleman Robert de Chaumont (1134-1174), the estate of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte became her dowry.

Marie de Saint-Clair (1192-1266), daughter of Robert de Saint-Clair and Isabel Levis, became Grand Mistress of the Priory from 1220 to her death (3). She had an affair with Emperor Frederick II

It seems in the Priory girls could rule and it was a equal opportunity organization

Henri became a Templar after she died
and it was her lands that stayed in her family name

Since the Templars were so secret then we don't know if they made exceptions to their chastity and poverty rules
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugues_de_Payens
King David of Scotland gave lands to soon after the Council of Troyes. King David granted Hugues and his knights the lands of Ballantradoch, by the Firth of Forth. William the Lion promoted and encouraged the knights and they received lands around the Lothians and Aberdeen. They had deeds to property in Ayr and western Scotland.



I so agree with you Roger at how the trials were not trials but just typical Vatican smear job

Unfortunately, the stone slab that reads "WILLIAM DE St. CLAIR - KNIGHT TEMPLAR" is modern, Lov. It was placed there at some point back in the '90s by a Scottish "Templar" copycat group. Not old, not original, not accurate. Only the top portion, the rose-colored slab, is 15th century. And it says nothing whatsoever about Templars.



That "trial" - or actually, inquest - took place in 1309, and the surviving records indicate that Henry and William St. Clair (father and son, the latter not being the same William whose tomb stone you're worshipping) gave testimony AGAINST the Knights Templar. The St. Claires were not on trial.



You really are delusional, Lov - not to mention misinformed, out of your depth, and dangerously undereducated.

The stone slab to which you refer commemorates William St. Clair, 3rd Earl of Orkney and Baron of Rosslyn, who was born in 1410 and died in 1484.

The Battle of Bannockburn was fought in 1314 - ninety-six years before this William St. Clair was born.



You can't even add properly, and yet you have the brazen audacity to accuse a qualified historian of throwing up smokescreens? You're two tacos short of a combo plate in the rational analysis department, my dear. I mean, you provide hours and hours of good belly laughs and I thank you for that, but you're a real mess when it comes to history!

TCP

I will make the point here is that the Vatican released the trial notes to the public in the 2000 millennium
It took over like 700 years to get those papers in the public and heaven knows if papers were pulled out of there

then the Vatican says its sorry the Templars were not all that bad ....but they still were heretics

oops we burned them ....our boo boo '
I submit to the jury a huge cover up ...that is an Action that speaks loudly

Except for all those who (a) joined other orders, (b) founded new orders, (c) lived the remainder of their lives as pensioners on their former lands, and (d) went back to civilian life - which was about 99.9975% of the professed membership. You do love your romance novels, don't you Lov?



Yes, by all means Jeff, just write your story and don't muck it up with pesky stuff like facts or evidence. Your target audience won't accept it if you use too many big words or dates or stuff like that. Make if fluid, moving backwards and forwards through time so Lov can follow along!



Another Sinclair-fabricated LIE that was definitively disproven about a decade ago when actual records surfaced showing the name of Hugues de Payens' wife as Isabelle des Chappes. Even the Sinclair family "historians" have since backed off that claim, you should probably sub up to one of their listservers to keep abreast of their latest embarrassing retractions.

TCP

You haven't got the slightest idea of what you're talking about!

TCP

Of course I can't prove it. No one has been able to prove how Freemasonry came to be. But I have now thoroughly researched all the competing theories, and the Templar connection makes more logical sense to me than all the other proposals. As it does to many others. Since you seem to like Ralls so much, re-read pp. 63ff. in "The Templars and the Grail."

TCP


So prove it TCP that this is a "Templar" copycat group is being promoted by the Rosslyn Chapel Trust
that they knowingly placed the modern stone slab William St Clair - Knight Templar with false information to dupe the public


just because something has been renovated doesn't mean it doesn't have value
it reads Knight Templar
is this a lie? according to you the Rossalyn Trust is promoting a lie....I would say not a lie
but a different opinion than yours

Who are these Templar copy cats ....just like the Orleans St Lazarus copy cats?
In other words TCP this is controversial ...

According to Turnbull the Catholic trials were from 1307 and 1312
In 1309 the two examined at holyrood were ENGLISH
Clifton served 10 years and was stationed at the Balantradoch (Temple)
Housefleet left the order

and TCP
Turnbull disagrees with your assertion Henri St Clair testified against the Templars
according to Turnbull their summarized statements of forty one witnesses sworn testimony (Henri included)
did not testify to any heresy or immorality but to excessive secrecy and attitudes to the poor who they neglected

those were not crimes of heresy

I just see the squirming here of the historian....Henri isn't a Templar but he never testified that they were heretics
oh by the way these guys were English ...so a Scot would love to give them grief but they didn't

hey it makes a great story

I know Karen personally and know her thoughts on these "theories" quite well, thanks.

So in the absence of evidence you're going with your gut feeling on a selections of ideas for which there may or may not even be a rational basis. Not very "scholarly" of you, Rev., that's what pseudo-historians do to get published when they don't want to do the work.

TCP

Hi Lov, Tim is right about the stone slab. It is touted as being the grave of William St Clair in some books, but there is no body buried beneath it. It is common knowledge that the slab was carved and placed there much later ( not sure of exact date, but I will get the references when I get time ). The Trust don't deny this when asked, but only when asked . The link between the St Clair family and the Templars is quite tenuous, but great for publicity at Rosslyn. Beautiful chapel though and I hope you enjoyed your visit.
Regards
Nic

Here's a source that's just about your speed, Lov:

The Templar Code For Dummies, p. 326

"Although an inscription in the church identifies William Sinclair as a Knight Templar, even that has never been proved conclusively - the inscription is a fairly recent addition. His descendant, also named William, became the first Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Scotland, and it's entirely possible that the inscription was added to strengthen the theoretical story of a Templar origin of Freemasonry."

See how nice and clean the white marble slab appears next to the shoddy, crumbling old rose marble piece sitting on top of it? See how the carving on the rose slab has been worn down, making it challenging to read the name "WILLHM SINNCLER" in Lombard script, while the new white marble shows a nice, crisp rendering of "WILLIAM St. CLAIR"? If the white slab was as old as the rose slab, why has it not denigrated to the degree the rose slab has, and why would they spell his name two different ways on the same sarcophagus?

Answer: because the white slab is younger than you are, Lov.



The Rosslyn Chapel Trust depends on the tourist trade for their revenues. How much do you think they'd make off of gullible tourists if they didn't promote the popular myths that keep them coming?



It was these folks:

The Commandery of St. Clair

One of dozens of "Templar" spin-offs bickering with one another about who the "real" heirs to the original order are. This one roped a Swedish St. Clair in as their patron.



So? He sure as hell didn't show up to sing their praises, did he?



Why would that make an historian squirm? Henry St. Clair was no Templar, in fact he showed up at the inquest to complain about the two Templars running the local perceptory (who happened to be English, so I'm not sure why such a great and powerful seat of the Templars wasn't awash with hundreds of French Templars seeking the protection of their "Hereditary Grand Master").

When one starts looking at actual documentation, the myths begin to unravel.

TCP

Oh, I've done the work, and it's all laid out clearly and succinctly in the new book, which like my first book has gotten nothing but glowing reviews from scholars and academic journals. I don't think that would happen if it was the work of a "pseudo-historian."

Nic


Thank you Nic ...now that is more like it say it like it is
Tenuous but obviously people have placed this stone and these bread crumbs to feed the legend
Someone such as the Rosslyn Trust placed the stone there to help connect the dots for the majority of the public and to perpetuate this legend.

Nic
Turnbull agrees with you

But you have to admit that the St Clair family tend to be always around and landing in the top positions at the right times

here is Henri the Holy Crusader there with Godefry in the First Crusade
A controversial point that Hugh de Payens marries a St Clair
but lets go with that Hugh de Payens was quite familiar with Henri the Holy ...they were Crusaders together
King David grants Balantravach (Temple) to the Templars
by royal charter it became the first and chief head quarters in Scotland

according to Turnbull the Templars were organized into 10 nations each province was headed by a PRIOR (master) who controlled the individual houses ...England Scotland and Ireland ...were out of London

Now this strategy was all well in good till Scotland started its war of Independence
Robert the Bruce gets excommunicated in 1306 ..by the Pope
William Saint Claire and Douglas die trying to take the Bruce's heart back
His son William buys the Templar lands of Gourton...(what a coincidence)

then you have the Saint Clair's connection as hereditary Grandmasters of the Scottish Rite Freemasons

no wonder people think there is something up with the Saint Clairs

Then just walk into Rosslyn and shake your head and say what is going on in here
it is like Stonemasons Go wild....

Oh by the way I read an awesome article by Sandy
and give her Kudos
http://www.rennesalchemist.com/godfrey-bouillon-his-frst-templars.html

What I love about her article is that she really explains the Red Cross

Some researchers have made a direct link between Godfrey of Bouillon, his clerics and canons and the Holy Sepulchre. Further, these ‘milites’ (i.e. men that fought on horses) were associated with the Holy Sepulchre. It seems these Knights may have been known as ‘milites christi’ or ‘milites sancti sepulchri’. It is posited that’s some ‘westerners’ (members of Godfrey’s domus godefridi?) broke away from the Holy Sepulchre to form a military order. Bernard the Treasurer has no hesitation in identifying these persons as the earliest Templars. Bernard even refers to these Knights as wearing the Red Cross insignia - that of the Holy Sepulchre.

We had a major discussion early on about the Templars wearing the Red Cross insignia

oh and this one too

At that time Baldwin [II] was king. So they came to him and said: ‘Lord, advise us for God's sake. We have decided to make one of us a master who may lead us in battle to help the country’. ..The king came to them and gave them land and castles and towns. Through his advice the king succeeded in persuading the prior of the Sepulchre to release them from obedience to him, and they left him, except that still they carry a part of the badge of the Sepulchre. The sign of the Sepulchre is a cross with two scarlet arms …. And those of the Temple carry a cross which is completely scarlet.‘

She has some great sources
so when some of us have said that the Templars wore the red cross there is evidence to that fact

Holy Sepulchre

The Keys to The Church of the Holy Sepulchre have been in the hands of the same family for over 900 years.

Wonder what they know?

Lots of references to rose/red colored stone:

St. Clair
Bens tomb
Rene's goblet
in the Grail stories
a recently found head in Egypt

anybody want to add to the list?

(Just thinking aloud...carry on)

Simple question: If there is no connection, please explain why the official title of one of the organizations in question has both names in its title?

"Royal Exalted Religious and Military Order of Masonic Knights Templars and of St. John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes and Malta."

Their statutes for government were published in London 1872.

It would seem to me that someone is acknowledging a connection.

I suppose it was an accident on their part, surely.