Arcadia Discussion Zone

Last night I was at a Moot where the speaker gave a Powerpoint presentation on 6-pointed stars found in the landscape around Glastonbury and Stonehenge (Peter Knight, The Wessex Astrum, www.stoneseeker.net). I'm not a great believer in these, whether at Glastonbury or at RLC; man is a pattern-making being, and you can find triangles, squares, pentagrams and hexagrams on any map if you use a blunt crayon and you ignore all the hilltops, standing stones and church towers that don't happen to fall on your lines. In the past I've been critical of books of this type by Chris Street, Paul Broadhurst & Hamish Miller, our own Henry Lincoln, and my old friend Adrian Gilbert, amongst others.

But there was clearly no point in my challenging the speaker on the entirety of his talk. Instead I picked him up on some of his comments about the Knights Templar, which he stated as simple facts: that they were greatly devoted to Mary Magdalene and John the Baptist, and that a round church meant a Templar church. (He even drew a hexagram using the positions of the effigies of the knights in Temple Church, which was just around the corner from his talk -- but they were put in their present positions, if I remember correctly, in a mid-C19 reconstruction!)

I pointed out that there is no historical evidence of a particular Templar devotion to MM or John the Baptist; whether Picknett & Prince invented this, or just popularised it, I'm not sure, but careless "speculative historians" now take it (and much else, equally spurious!) as fact. The Templar knights certainly venerated these saints, along with a few dozen others, but their particular devotion was reserved for the BVM, as was normal for the time.

But I didn't have to hand the evidence I needed on the shape of churches, that (a) not all Templar churches were round, and (b) quite a few non-Templar churches of the period were round. Can anyone help?

I am surprised that there are any of these left.

check out the comments on this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FvaLZty3DM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXxMRWqs ... re=related
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7507316
http://www.simplypro.com/numedalslag/where.htm

architecture varies, no?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMX1D89N ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZHLyC5T ... re=related

Religion varies considerably, depending on history, location, local traditions, etc. It would be rather difficult to postulate any given religion is monolithic. What passes for heathen-pagan tradition in Scandinavia don't automagically mean its the same rite-ritual going on in Bohemian Grove, for example.

"These"? I wasn't enquiring about Stav churches.

Agreed. But every opportunity I'm given, such as the Angels & Demons documentary last week, I try to dispel some of the myths, simply because they're in danger of becoming hard-wired not just in tru-believers' minds but in the wider public perception, as "facts".

What I was looking for here was simply a few examples of non-round Templar churches and non-Templar round churches, so that I'm fore-armed next time this one crops up in conversation.

That's exactly the sort of reply I was looking for. Thank you!

I agree with what Roger said. Certainly in France, circular Templar churches are very few and far between.
In England -
"Only four (medieval) round churches now survive in England. They are the Temple Church in London, Little Maplestead in Essex, St Sepulchre's in Northampton and Holy Sepulchre in Cambridge. The popular mythology is that all round churches belonged to the Templars. This isn't true - Little Maplestead, for example, was owned by the Knights Hospitaller. Both the Templars and the Hospitallers had strong links with Palestine, of course, and the usual explanation for the shape of these churches is that they were built in imitation of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. This gives us a bit of a puzzle in Cambridge, though. The Round Church here was founded by a 'Confraternity of the Holy Sepulchre', who were given the land by Abbot Reinald of Ramsey between 1114 and 1130. This aside, nothing is known about the Confraternity. Some sort of Jerusalem connection seems likely, given the date and the dedication, but this is inevitably speculation."
From the website by Ben Colburn & Mark Ynys-Mon
At - http://www.druidic.org/camchurch/church ... epulch.htm

And non Templar round churches - well there's the evocatively named one in Segovia - La Vera Cruz...

And in Scotland - Orphir in the Orkneys, contains the remains of Scotland's only surviving circular medieval church. Built in the late 11th, or early 12th, century, the Orphir Round Kirk is thought to have been built by Earl Hakon. Dedicated to Saint Nicholas, its design was inspired by the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem.
The other is the 18th century one at Bowmore - Kilarrow Parish Church, It was commissioned by the laird Daniel Campbell of Shawfield and built by the Spalding family between 1767 and 1769. The church was styled after a design in Rome. The roof is held up by a central pillar which is believed to be a ship's mast. The round design of the church is said to prevent the Devil from hiding in the corners

It was actually the Knights Hospitaller who were first known for building round churches. It's possible that the Templars did the same thing later. Of course, John the baptist really was the patron saint of the Hospitallers, though not of the Templars, whose patron saint was Bernard of Clairvaux. It appears that the Hospitaller churches were round in imitation of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. You can read about it in the book The History and Antiquities of the Round Church at Little Maplestead, Essex at the Google Books site. Here's a part which explains why some churches, or at least baptisteries, were octagonal.

No, it's never too late to correct error -- though as we've all found, it can make us pretty unpopular when we step on much-loved but utterly erroneous beliefs. I'm not talking about religious beliefs, which are, rightly, a matter of faith, not fact -- though the fervour with which speculative historians tell and retell their favourite myths as fact (quoting each other for substantiation!) is little short of religious faith.

Absolutely. He's also one of my least favourite people in history (after the obvious -- Hitler, Pol Pot etc). Whatever spiritual virtues Bernard of Clairvaux may have had, he utterly loathed women. It was no doubt his decision to include these paragraphs in the Templar Rule:

He was also largely responsible for rallying support for the launch of the disastrous Second Crusade.

And he detested one of my most favourite people in history, Aliénor d'Aquitaine. For that alone, he ain't no saint of mine!

http://www.heddal-stavkirke.no/english.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nave
http://www.templarhistory.com/roundchurch.html
http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/templar_churches.htm

I looked at the concept of the 'nave' which comes from the construction of boats. The stav church's, all built on top of heathen sites, in many cases have rounded ends to show they got this influence from other sources, no?

Stav churches are built according to boat construction principles, the word ark mean anything?

Templar Church in London has a rectangular appendage to it, so it ain't 'zakly completely round, is it?

Templars got around in their own fleet, no? So why should a stav church seem out of place. Bornholm was considered Templar turf, Bornholm is part of Denmark which at 1 time reigned over a good chunk of Scandinavia.

This would lend considerable credibility to Templars being involved with financing of these Church's, no? So why automagically see only what ya wanna see?

Okay, he was their patron normal human until 1174, THEN he was their patron saint. I just went by the Google returns. Maybe I should have searched "favourite saint of the Templars".

None of these folk agree with yer take muggsy, how come? Check out why...

roscoe + jb are gonna like this dude's approach...
http://www.jandpyoung.com/

this looks like a stav church made out of stone...
http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/denmark/bornholm.htm

http://www.templarhistory.com/haagensen.html

http://www.templarhistory.com/haagensen.html

http://www.rense.com/general6/baltic.htm

what I wanna know is why are ya starting to come across like palsy? Going into nay saying mode ain't gonna cut it. Ya need to be able to convince these folks I found at random as well, no? This ain't the 1st time ya emulated palsy.

That J.K Young dude did his homework, no? Yer gonna have to publish a more definitive text to be able to counter his take from what I can surmise. I am not into his wave length but his approach is well thought out, no?

So, muggsy, ya got yer work cut out for ya on this one, no? I am sure JB has lots he can add as well to give J.K. Young some creedence here.

'roger'

The guy saw these things in their physical state, no? If he decided to extrapolate a meaning from them he is entitled to do so, no? If ya don't agree with his extrapolation ya gotta do a better job of explaining why, no?

Just saying he is going off on a tangent by proximity is not very convincing. He is looking at the place in its actual setting, the modern setting gives all of these places a very diff'rent appearance, no? Methinks ya lack the ability to see these places in their pristine state.

What 'zakly do ya expect? an embossed tour guide by the original designers of all of these places? Folk today have to work with what ya find just like an archaeologist has to. You expect too much, complain even more and deliver so little.

Ya need to see the scope of their approach, no? if ya get so myopic and nit pick ye'll never find anything. Fault finding never built any worth while construction I am aware of. Rutherford said heavier than air machines were a physical impossibility, amen. You display this luddite Rutherfordian take in a majority of yer posts, when do ya plan to do to get into the 21st Century?

Remember. I did not write this guys' book, he did. I just look for antithetical situations to counter yer antithetical situations and hope a synthesis will arise. A sort of modified Hegelian approach, no?

Ya gotta remember my start point is from the lampoonic, I need 2 opposite polarities to get that mojo working. Yer always good for providing 1 of them, the rest are selected at random from wanna-be's on the 'Net looking for their 15 minutes of Warhol fame.

Opinions are opinions are opinions, no? If a Templar could earn a buck financing a Church on Bornholm, why not. That's the name of the game, yes? Yer in the finance biz so you experience that every day without giving it a 2nd thought. Them Templar dudes were the Madoffs of their day, yes?

Not necessarily me, but certainly some of my Pagan acquaintances -- who, btw, take their religion seriously while also having fun (I don't think I've ever met a po-faced Pagan), and who are generally very well read, about both their own and other religions. The sort of crap that sometimes passes for "argument" on this forum (from certain individuals, past and present), you just wouldn't get away with in their moots. Speakers are challenged (but always with politeness) over factual inaccuracies, sloppy reasoning or alternative interpretations. At the moot which prompted this thread, there wasn't much point in my challenging the speaker on his main thesis, of drawing pretty hexagrams all over OS maps, but I picked him up on what appeared to be his unthinking acceptance of modern "speculative historian" ideas about the Templars.

Muggsy,

I never see ya quoted as a definitive source as to what constitutes a 'fact' regarding Templars, or any thing you pontificate 'boot. Not a single cite with yer name on it. How do ya account for this oversight? How dare the academic community shit on ya like that. That tells me they ain't got no respect for ya, how come?

Ya incinerate, er insinuate that yer right the rest of the world is wrong and never produce a single shred of evidence the whole academic profession will cite. If yer dead right in yer OPINION, be so kind and demo it as FACT the academics will acknowledge.

Talk is cheap, it applies to you Muggsy moreso than to any seeker of knowledge, 'cuz ya pontificate non-stop every utterance ya make is gospel. I don't buy into that for a nano second. Blasphemy ain't my bag, dude.

I brought up Young's approach as being equally valid as yer's and actually a step up from ya 'cuz he demo's his take. You have yet to demo anything beyond the release of verbal flatulence. I wanna read yer documented book, Muggsy, I wanna see yer documentaries like Lincoln made. I wanna see yer block fluster, er ah, buster flik like Dan Brown made.

The only person with academic pretensions taking ya seriously Muggsy, seems to be you. How 'boot some humility, come down from the klouds, mingle with us mere mortals trapped here in the pollution arena called earth, commo in a non-demeaning style instead of being in pontification mojo mode.

I am surprised the Pope hasn't abdicated, you pontificate much more than he does, and he only does it when it comes to The Faith +Morals. You pontificate 'boot everything under the sun, how come?

It all still boils down to individual interp, no? If my take is only German Knight Orders constitute the legacy of Templars and you disagree, that tells me you have to convince them there Germans they are wrong, not me. I didn't make them anything, they do that by themself.

If you disagree and only SAY ya disagree, guess what, we have a Mexican stand-off + we are both right, and then what? Opinion meets opinion, yes?

When can I expect yer documentaries to hit You Tube?

Jake, you don't make it clear who you're addressing. Who is "Muggsy"? If it's me, then yes, a number of academic books, journals etc have referenced my work over the years, sometimes, agreeing, sometimes disagreeing, sometimes just citing.

DVB,

I guess ya missed 'roger's mention of being super-simian. I duly acknowledged his supremacy over them. J.Fred Muggs is a known simian entity in Hollyweird circles, so 'roger' is actually J. Fred Muggs the 2nd to his simiam compatriots. I call him Muggsy to keep it folksy.

Your credentials are not being challenged here DVB, its muggsy who has yet to match your background in that arena. He does what you never do, yet you have this academic acknowledgement, muggsy doesn't.

I brought up a debate point a while back where by I challenged muggsy to show me where in EU annals only a froggy can be deigned a Templar. This is not a patent-able term is it? It falls into the same up-for-grabs- notoriety as PoS , no?

I was gonna ask muggsy how come, if it ain't just urban folk lore, ya can't, by law, call a pig Napoleon on France. If ya have a pet pig in UK called Napoleon, take him to France on vacation and call him Nappy there, how can froggy authorities know what 'nappy' actually reps. Its this ability to adapt a name to circumstances is what I bring up.

If freemasons wanna drag the entire Templar mythos into their rite-rituals, so be it. If its good 'nuff for the masons then who is to say they ain't got a right to do it? Muggsy comes along and sez they ain't genu-whine real Templars, 'cuz they ain't got the right pedigree, what ever that means.

I asked muggsy why his stance is more valid than descendants of the bloody red baron von Richtoven who claim to be German Templars. Can muggsy win his case in a EU court of law on that point?

It would be the same if 'ye Whig party of olde' were to be resurrected in the UK but only folk who could demo the proper ancestry of being genu-whine Whig's of yesteryear could be voting members in elections today. Where do ya draw the line, if ya can?

Folk who were called Christians 2,000 years ago may or not be recognized as being Christians today, yes? The human factor + the element of time makes what is going on today unique, no? It ain't a for certain what applied , say 200 years ago, can be applied today. Its this relative paradigm shift which makes history so fascinating, no?

muggsy knows he has no academic credentials to back up his pontifications as you do, that is a huge difference, no? muggsy has his work cut out for hisself if he expects not to be challenged as being a poser.

Muggsy,

I am gonna pull a 'roger' here, in tried + 'true 'rogerian' fashion, it goes like this.

By virtue of my going to Borholm, standing next to a Templar funded Church holding a compass in my hand verifying the degrees to RlC + Jerusalem I have not only met yer supercilious demands for proof, I exceeded them, 'cuz yer not here, and from what I gather, never were, or never plan to be.

By virtue of my feet on the ground at Bornholm I am the proof, all the proof I ever need, everything else is just that, everything else. End of pontification, ... the resident simian will now take up a collection for a bunch of bananas to send to head simian muggsy...

Ya see dude, ya don't have credentials 'til they can be verified. Since yers exist only in yer fantasy it don't hold no water. I am a humble holder of B.A + a B.Sci. I was a supervised practicum away from a Masters in Counseling when the med school training program came up. My medical credentials were created + endorsed by Board Certified Physicians. That is my humble background, but a very productive one.

Yer prideful boast is gonna backfire on ya dude, it ain't kosher if ya catch my drift. So far ya ain't shown squat in the academic field to prove yer existence there. Once yer name shows up in blazing neon lights all over academia maybe the rest of the forum might be impressed, 'cept me, 'cuz I know it ain't never gonna happen. Being a poser is just that, muggsy, and nothin' more.

I have a simple query for ya muggsy, how did them Templar dudes sustain their field ops?, were they basically scavenging foragers at heart like most of them military folk were way back when? They did not always have a telex machine handy to request a bale of hay for their trusty steeds. Since yer the resident expert of all things Templar, what were the names them Templar dudes gave them noble critters they charged off on. Dancer, Prancer, donner + vixen perhaps? I don't know, I'm surmising 'cuz inspiration for them reindeer had to come from somewhere, so why not from Templar steeds?

They were the most essential part of their armament, no? What's the name of the guy who groomed them nags they relied on, did a Templar actually shovel shit out of a stall? Did they sow + harvest the oats them critters ate. The practical nuts + bolts of finance are yer daily fare so all of these equally nuts + bolts 'boot them Templar dudes oughta be at yer finger tips no?

Since finance was their life blood later on, what 'zakly did they invest in? financing of Church's they knew they would get well compensated for? I can't imagine them setting up a chain of horse burger stands along the main travelled roads of their heyday. They had to be doing something, maybe acting like todays' mafia enforcers, shaking down errant debtors to a King.

They were normal humans, no? same needs, same urges, etc not all of them dudes were made into saints, how come? By virtue of a single Templar riding his horse thru a town anywhere in Europe and his horse marked his trail by a string of turds is all it takes to establish the presence of the might of Templars, no? Who was gonna stop that dude and tell him to get out his pooper scooper kit and pick up them turds? Did ya count the number of turds dropped in RLC? Its that crucial to history ya know.

It never happened, did it muggsy, that a Templar had to explain to anybody why he was where he was? Them Templar dudes and anybody who copied them, 'cuz it would a very easy thing to do back then, no? Any petty noble who could scrounge up the necessary paraphanelia could emulate a Templar and include it in his family history. Who is gonna be able to play judge + jury back then? Its all just a play to the galleries anyway and muggsy is making a big deal out of it as usual.

If folk at Bornholm have a Templar tradition + muggsy sez they don't its up to muggsy to initiate a law suit to stop this desecration, no? I could care less, In fact I hope everybody on Bornholm can drag a Templar skeleton out of a closet just to make muggsy's day.

muggsy,

I asked in very simple terms so as not to confuse ya, yet ya go into denial mojo mode every time. If anybody is pathetic its you dude. I have no problem seeing any + every ramification. You want everything etched in concrete with a good housekeeping stamp of approval on it, well that don't match reality, does is it?

Anybody 1000 years back could claim anything they wanted and get away with it 'cuz there were no oversight committees. What we have today is what has been allowed to surface. The Vatican has the last say mainly 'cuz they have the most complete documentation of that bygone era, no?

Royal houses of EU ain't 'boot to let anybody tinker with their document collections, I ain't gonna buy yer Laurence Gardner special access permissions fantasy, muggsy. I never hear QE2 address her abject wretched subjects by prefacing it with, BTW, this is what 'roger' wants ya to know. Get real muggsy, yer avoidance mojo is the only fact I am aware yer good at. Ya demo it all the time.

Now, back to the notion of what the Templar notion has accomplished. I go out from this point of view, them Templar dudes were not their own bosses, they followed instructions from their controllers, otherwise they would have been able to take over the Papacy and kept it in the palm of their hand.

They were a military force, no? How could a sitting Pope defend hisself if they made a move on him? Since this type of power grab didn't happen it tells me a whole bunch of power players in EU of olde used them Templars like pawns in a chess game. Muggsy will protest + SAY it ain't so. Where is muggsy's insider info? Being a spamming naysayer like palsy is muggsy's only defense. He falls back on it every time.

These Templars could have taken any Kingdom by force + put 1 of their own on the throne but didn't, how come muggsy? It takes a clever organization to sustain an organization like the Templars. The logistics were daunting to say the least.

They were the force d'frappe of their day, no? If they were in the finance trade muggsy, an area of yer self-anointed expertise, what did they finance? How did they enforce re-payment? My take is they preyed on the Church by financing all of then fancy cathedrals, they don't come cheap, do they?

Many of them there Church's served a 2nd purpose, no? Those on Bornholm had a very defensive stance to them, why? Who was the threat? But of course, muggsy will say, what threat. The history of that island is as violent as any other place in Europe. Methinks these Templars acted as military advisors just like a Delta Force does today, and that rendered service didn't come cheap. A standing army has the same requirements to sustain itself as a mobile army does.

I see indications of a Templar presence in Europe of that time to be much further spread than muggsy will allow. How many places in Europe developed a Carcassone type of defense posture? The Citadel structure in Jerusalem or Acre would be a place to compare for starters.

Swedes, Danes, Hanseatic league had many a squabble there. It ain't all that pristine. It sat in a very strategic spot from a commercial viewpoint. Just, 'cuz the Germans managed to get there 1st in WW1 + 2 saved that island a whole lotta grief. If the UK got there 1st that place would have been blasted to bits in both wars.

That island was constantly being contested over since way back when, that don't sound all that peaceful to me. Some of the combatants settled their scores over Bornholm in other locations, but folk from that island were conscriipt targets just like many other places. Look at how many Finns Charles Xii of Sweden impressed, without Finns fighting Swedish foreign wars, the Swedes would never have left town.

Charles XII is known here as Kalle Dussin, he marched across Russia and headed toward Turkey, without the Finns who made up the bulk of his army he would not have made it ashore in Russia. He lost at Poltava 'cuz he thought it was a fair fight of him being outnumbered 5 to 1.

BTW, muggsy, I am asking my Finn relatives whose father married a French gal just after WW2 with some sort of minor aristocratic background if they can fill me in on it. It will tickle me pink if this gal is related to you.

What would yer reaction be then, cousin? Ya can't disown me then, could ya? I still might get the last laugh after all, no? heheheh

Yo dude,

I found some links to folk who not only claim to be Templar survivors, they are recognized by the UN as such. I take it, any body who has at least 1 way back when ancestor who had the faintest connect to being a Templar can make that claim. That's why I brought up the bit 'boot the guys who mucked the stalls of them Templar steeds, dancer, prancer, etc. Rowed their galleys, etc. Folk who made their armament, their tunics, etc are all part of the inventory, no? Where do ya draw the line?

This gal has her claims...
http://www.festsange-cordua.dk/uk/index.php

these guys claim affiliation..
http://www.st-lazarus.no/historie.htm

check the Denmark links...
http://masons.start4all.com/masons-4/

these guys want to check the vaults...
http://www.latvians.com/en/Mailer/envel ... _01_05.htm

another viewpoint...
http://www.medievalacademy.org/medacnew ... cguire.htm

other folks searching as well...
http://www.georgesmart.com/ght1c5.htm

these are UN sanctioned...
http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/un.htm
http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/Pakis ... 20Post.htm
http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/templars_&_rome.htm
http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/templar_influence.htm

The local Bornhomlers have a society of folk who claim a distant heritage as well. I am looking for an English translation of their stuff. I can't imagine there being that many Danish readers on the forum. The gal I linked to above has a bi-lingual web page.

I already predict yer response, muggsy, that don't constititute proof. Well, to them Borhholm folk those standing Church's are all the proof they need. They are aware of all the internecine battles waged over that place.

Here's another lil' goody for ya. Gorbi let slip that if a confrontation with NATO ever happened, Spetsnaz had the task of taking Bornhom 1st, then a follw up force would take all of Denmark to islolate the entire Baltic so that the UK or U.S would not be able to do anything there. The next step was to attack Germany from Denmark, not from East Germany as was the current Cold War strategy.

Muggsy, what do ya know 'boot the 3rd Armored Division? the 1 tasked with holding the Fulda gap? Its yer lack of strategic knowledge which is yer achilles heel. A UK General in the 1980's wrote a book 'boot WW3 starting out in the Balkans just like WW1. My take on that book is that its a disinfo feint. Similar to the phrasing of most of yer posts. Always skirting the issues.

Muggsy,

Now I know you have a sense of humor, you jive turkey. I caught it on yer previous post. BTW, what got me wonderin' if we be's kin folk is when ya mentioned drop kickin' yer Aunt Bea's pooch over a hedge. You sadist.

Its the name Bea that triggered off my association pathways. Since this aunt is French, my cousin with a French mom has the same 1st name with remembrances of her mom's ancestry that I brought up. I am awaiting some more follow-up to get the a more complete picture. I take for granted everybody in France is related to Charlemagne, so that makes for a convenient converging point., yes?

It beats having to check thru the pedigree of every goat herder who survived the Black Plague, who moved into the manor house 'cuz he was the only survivor. That made it easy for descendants of these lucky surviving goat herders to insert themself into the previous occupants' pedigree, no?

Now, back to yer latest ostrich maneuver. Ya mean to tell me yer gonna sue the UN for recognizing them Scots Templar dudes? When can we book seats for that trial? Is this on top of ya suing them Bornholmers for there Templar claims? The Bornholmers say the Templars were there to be bodyguards to the German Templar Knights, which tells me these German Knights were the superiors of the garden variety Templar Knights of that time.

Are ya gonna sue the Pope for recognizing them Scots Templars too?

Ya know, Muggsy, ya got a real challenge on yer hands with Bornholm, no?

catchya on the flip side,

jake

Jake, countless thousands of organisations and religions and charities, large and small, are given NGO status by the UN. This does not mean that the UN recognises any modern group that call themselves Templars as being in any way the legitimate successors of the original Knights Templar. I could set up a group called The Only True And Original Knights Templar With Rosicrucian and Kabbalistic Connections or somesuch, and say we have the aim of doing charity work in Jerusalem (or anywhere else), and I would be able to apply for NGO status. As for These guys claim status etc -- people can claim whatever they like. It doesn't mean there's any reality behind their claims.

Will speculative historians and conspiracy theorists never accept that the Knights Templar came to an end when the Order was dissolved in 1312? Many knights went to the Order of Knights Hospitaller, who were given most of the Templar properties. In Spain and Portugal some former Knights Templar joined the newly formed Order of Christ and the Order of Montesa respectively -- but these were not the KT under another name. Any so-called Legends of Perpetuation are C18 and C19 forgeries to give spurious legitimacy to entirely new esoteric groups.

No one claiming to be in a Knights Templar Order today has any legitimacy. Full stop. End of.

Drats. Now you just gave away the plot for my next book.

DVB,

Folks like Debretts make their living by being gate keepers of sorts, no? They want to maintain the aura there is something in a pedigree, no? So how can ya arbitrarily say none of those Templar dudes came from families that had no descendants?

If yer a brother or sister to a Templar, yer family name is a Templar name, no? Thís is what the Debrett krowd go out from, yes? Look at what Muggsy said 'boot the Spanish equivalent to Debretts, they have a quasi govt status. If somebody wants to claim Spanish Templar roots they go to that Spanish version of Debretts, no?

I am sure there is some kind of gatekeeper organization in France like Debretts, yes? Do all of these groups have that NGO status ya mentioned? If ya noticed there was no mention of being a NGO in any of those links. Here in Sweden a group of Scanian separatists have petitioned for NGO status to the UN and have been turned down, so it ain't as automagic as ya say.

The Sami + Lapps have been turned down as well. The Basque have wanted a separate but equal status as a NGO in Spain and are not recognized by the UN either. Sweden has gone so far as to prosecute a legit bastard sired by a royal if they claim this descendancy, so tell me how can ya be a non-person? Folke Bernadotte had his love child and refused to be her father. What does that tell ya 'boot the ethics + morals of the royals?

By virtue of this situation of declaring folk sired by the aristocracy as being non-persons makes a mockery out of all of this pedigree bull shit, no? Where does Debretts and other groups get the right to play God with another person's life? I have never seen it written in to any Constitution I ever read.

Thomas Jefferson took French Rev liberal thought 1 step farther when he said all people are born equal...That don't say BTW according to Debretts, not all people are born equal but I wlll write that statement 'cuz it makes a good sound bite.

If everybody in France today can trace their lineage back to Charlemagne mean's they also go thru them Templar families on their way back no? This is far from a dead end issue. Its alive as long as their are folk breathing on the planet.