Arcadia Discussion Zone

Come on, I don't know if you've seen the progs but I'd hardly put them in the sensationalist bracket.

From her website, re: the series:

In this provocative upcoming series, Bettany tells the stories of the extraordinary women whose legends and lives cast new light on some of the hottest arguments about the role of women in religion today.

Female priests in Christianity - very hot issue today. She's not going to attract viewer share without a tantalizing hook, and I'm sure she realizes her target audience will take her opinions as fact.

I've not seen anything from this particular series, but I've seen her in other programs, like the one she did on Atlantis.

TCP

TCP are you saying that a piece of artwork needs an inscription for the viewer to be considered worthy of evidence
I think archeologist get lots of artwork without inscriptions


We have a white horse in England

It didn't come with an inscription

Well some believe TCP that Mary Magdalene was an Apostle to the Apostles
Luke 8,1-3 tells us that Mary traveled with Jesus in the Galilean discipleship and, with Joanna and Susanna, supported his mission from her own financial resources. In the synoptic gospels, Mary leads the group of women who witness Jesus' death, burial, the empty tomb, and His Resurrection. The synoptics contrast Jesus' abandonment by the male disciples with the faithful strength of the women disciples who, led by Mary, accompany him to his death. John's gospel names Mary of Magdala as the first to discover the empty tomb and shows the Risen Christ sending her to announce the Good News of his resurrection to the other disciples. This prompted early church Fathers to name her "the Apostle to the Apostles."

In Ireland Saint Brigid
She founded two monastic institutions, one for men, and the other for women, and appointed Saint Conleth as spiritual pastor of them. It has been frequently stated that she gave canonical jurisdiction to Saint Conleth, Bishop of Kildare, but, as Archbishop Healy points out, she simply "selected the person to whom the Church gave this jurisdiction", and her biographer tells us distinctly that she chose Saint Conleth "to govern the church along with herself". Thus, for centuries, Kildare was ruled by a double line of abbot-bishops and of abbesses, the Abbess of Kildare being regarded as superior general of the monasteries in Ireland.

They ruled equally
The Celtic Church was different from its Roman one
This book covers the development of women's religious professions in the primitive church in Saint Patrick's era and the development of large women's monasteries such as Kildare, Clonbroney, Cloonburren, and Killeedy. It traces its subject through the heyday of the 7th century, through the Viking era, and the Culdee reforms, to the era of the Europeanisation of the 12th century. The place of women and their establishments is considered against the wider Irish background and compared with female religiosity elsewhere in early medieval Europe. The book shows that while Ireland was distinct it was still very much part of the wider world of Western Christendom, and it must be appreciated as such. Grounded in the primary material of the period, the book places in the foreground many largely unknown Irish texts in order to bring them to the attention of scholars in related fields. The book explores widespread ideas about Celtic women, pagan priestesses, and Saint Brigit, considering how these perceptions came about in light of the texts and historiographical traditions of the previous centuries.
Women in a Celtic Church
Christina Harrington
Bibliographic Information
Print publication date: 2002 Print ISBN-13: 9780198208235
Published to Oxford Scholarship Online: January 2010

There are a few "White Horses" in England such as :-
Cherhill White Horse, at Cherhill Down near Calne, Wiltshire, England
Devizes White Horse, at Roundway Down near Devizes, Wiltshire, England
Folkestone White Horse, Folkestone, Kent
Kilburn White Horse near Kilburn, North Yorkshire, England
Osmington White Horse near Osmington, Dorset, England
Uffington White Horse, Oxfordshire, England
Westbury White Horse, Wiltshire, England

I'm not sure which one you posted a photo of Lov as it didn't show on my computer, but be aware that some are more recent creations from 1700-1900 like the Cherhill White Horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherhill_White_Horse
The Uffington white horse is probably the most famous and dates back to the Bronze Age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uffington_White_Horse
Sorry for the Wiki links but I'm stuck for time.
Regards
Nic

No, of course not.



It looks like a horse. If one were to go a step further to suggest a breed, one would need something evidential to substantiate the assertion.



Naturally, it's church doctrine.



Not sure what that has to do with this mural. You do realize it's in Rome, right?

TCP

I've seen 2 of 3 episodes, and whilst the argument could be ..well argued, it wasn't done in a sensational manner. She's a tv historian following in the steps of the excellent Michael Wood.

Yes it is a hot issue, one doesn't have to be a Maghead (demeaning term) to realise that women had a far more prominent role in the early days of Christianity and have subsequently been marginalised by the likes of St Auggie, and all the shock horror nonsense about female sexuality in the Christian Church.

About Bettany Hughes, Pilrig said; "Come on, I don't know if you've seen the progs but I'd hardly put them in the sensationalist bracket."
From Wikipedia- The woman seems well credentialed!

"Bettany Hughes is daughter of actor Peter Hughes and sister of cricketer and journalist Simon Hughes. Bettany Hughes was educated at the private Notting Hill & Ealing High School in Ealing, and won a scholarship to study Ancient and Modern History at St Hilda's College, University of Oxford where she received an upper second degree.

She has taught at Bristol, Manchester, Oxford and Cambridge universities and is a currently a Research Fellow of King's College London and an Honorary Fellow of Cardiff University. Her first book Helen of Troy: Goddess, Princess, Whore has been translated into ten languages. Her second book The Hemlock Cup: Socrates, Athens and the Search for the Good Life was Book of The Week on BBC Radio 4.[1] The Hemlock Cup has been well received by critics and was chosen as a Book of the Year in several publications.[2][3] In 2010 Hughes was awarded the Naomi Sargent Prize for Broadcast Excellence and was given a Special Award for services to Hellenic Culture and Heritage.[citation needed] She has also been awarded the 2012 Norton Medlicott Award for services to History.[4] She has written and presented documentary films and series for National Geographic, BBC, Discovery, PBS, The History Channel and Channel 4.

She has been invited to universities in the US, Australia, Germany, Turkey and Holland to speak on subjects such as Helen of Troy, the origins of female 'Sophia' and concepts of Time in the Islamic world. In 2010 she gave the Hellenic Institute's Tenth Annual lecture 'Ta Erotika: The Things of Love',[5] and in 2011 was invited to give the BBC Huw Wheldon Memorial Lecture, which she used to argue that history on television is thriving and enjoying a new golden age.[6] She was also asked to chair the 2011 Orange prize for Fiction,[7] the UK's only annual book award for fiction written by a woman.

She is a long-standing patron and supporter of educational and campaigning charity The Iris Project, which has been promoting and teaching Latin and Greek in state schools since 2006.[8] She is an honorary patron of Classics For All, a national campaign to get classical languages and the study of classical civilisations back into state schools in the UK launched in 2010. She is also an advisor to the Foundation for Science, Technology and Civilisation which fosters large-scale collaborative projects between East and West.

Her husband is Adrian Evans, the producer of Archaos in the UK and the director of the South Bank Thames Festival. The couple have two children.
Works
Television

Breaking the Seal (2000). BBC/OU
Mysteries of the Ancients (2002).
The Spartans (2002) - produced by Lion TV, three 60-minute episodes.
Ancient Discoveries (2003) - produced by the History Channel.
Seven Ages of Britain (2003) — a social history from the Ice Age to the Industrial Revolution.
The Minotaur's Island (2003) - produced by Lion TV.
The Minoans (2004) - produced by Lion TV.
Helen of Troy (2005) — produced by Lion TV.
When The Moors Ruled In Europe (2005).
Athens: the Dawn of Democracy (2007). Former title Athens: the Truth about Democracy.
Engineering Ancient Egypt (2008).
The Roman Invasion of Britain (2009).
The Bible: A History - (2010) Channel 4: one episode (4 of 7) titled Daughters of Eve.
Time Team (2010) Channel 4: season 17, episode 1
Atlantis: the Evidence (2010): A Timewatch special about the lost continent being the volcanic island of Santorini
Alexandria, City of Dreams, More 4, 2010
The Day Jesus Died, BBC One, 2010
Countrywise, ITV, 2009–2011
Forgiveness, BBC One, 2011
The Seven Wonders of the Buddhist World, BBC Two, 2011
The Story of the East, Channel 4, 2011
Nefertiti - The True Face, Discovery Channel, forthcoming
Divine Women, BBC, 2012

Radio

There's Something About Eleanor of Aquitaine - BBC Radio 3, 2004
Amongst the Medici - 3 parts, BBC Radio 4, February–March 2006.
The Face That Launched A Thousand Ships - BBC Radio 3, 2006
Sisters of Aphrodite - BBC Radio 3, 2007
Byzantium Unearthed - 3 parts, BBC Radio 4, October 2008
Call Yourself a Feminist - 3 parts, BBC Radio 4, 2009
Great Lives - Sappho episode 2 of series 22, BBC Radio 4, 10 August 2010
In Search of the Aryans Sunday Special - BBC Radio 3, 2010
Banishing Eve - 3 parts, BBC Radio 4, 2010

Books

Helen of Troy: Goddess, Princess, Whore, 2005. ISBN 0-224-07177-7.
The Hemlock Cup: Socrates, Athens and the Search for the Good Life, 2010. ISBN 0-224-07178-5

Academic Publications

"Terrible, Excruciating, Wrong-Headed And Ineffectual": The Perils and Pleasures of Presenting Antiquity to a Television Audience - Dunstan Lowe, Kim Shahabudin (ed.), Classics for All: Reworking Antiquity in Mass Culture. Newcastle upon Tyne: Cambridge Scholars Publishing
"Helen of Troy: Goddess, Princess, Whore - European Cultural Centre of Delphi, XIII International Meeting On Ancient Drama 2007, The Women in Ancient Drama, Symposium Proceedings"

She herself doesn't have to be "sensational" in manner, the topic itself suffices.



The real hot issue is not whether women played a more prominent role (the Church was, after all, organized very differently in its early years, being largely home-based), but rather what that role comprised. I don't think anyone disbelieves or argues against the existence of female deacons, or that females were in ministry (to other females). Priesthood is another story, and it isn't enough to say that the lack of any documentary evidence supports the idea, or suggests a conspiracy to cover it up.

TCP

Well TCP there you go getting to a major point
female deacons ...yes we have proof in the Scriptures
In Rom 16:1, Phoebe is called a “servant of the church of Cenchrea.

Did Women baptize? DID they have the right to Baptize?
Could Magdalene have the RIGHT to BAPTIZE?

After his resurrection Christ gives this mission to his apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize58 , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.


These words are quoted from a command of the resurrected Jesus in Matthew 28:19, commonly called the Great Commission: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

Jesus didn't say only men can Baptize even the Church knows this
So if Magdalene was faced with a dying person who was Pagan then as a merciful person doing Jesus's command since she was around the Risen Lord ...then therefore it was HER DUTY to save the dying person soul

I believe women baptized when men were not around ...and they have been doing it from that time of Christ to this day
So when they say Magdalene converted Provence ....chances are she baptized them ...The church doesn't say that the Baptism is any less effective if a woman performs it verses a man

Magdalene was The Apostle to the Apostles ...Christ didn't say Mary leave the room cause your a woman and you can't hear this...when we have him teaching women ...in the Scriptures....I find the image of Christ as a supporter of women rights ...a better image than a Christ who supports the enslavement of women

When I read the Scriptures especially the ones concerning women
I find Christ incredibly kind and understanding of women and respectful

I can't imagine him burning women at the stake for witchcraft and torture
The Inquisition did its job on making the Papacy very Rich and Powerful and run by men
Women's job were to Breed more Catholics or to serve the Church without a voice in any decisions

I will lead you with another fundamentalist religion run by Muslims which promote the role of women as servants to men
without any rights or a voice in decisions

Some crazy fundamentalist politician in Egypt had the absolute gall to submit

Alleged proposals to allow Egyptian husbands to legally have sex with their dead wives for up to six hours after their death have been branded a 'complete nonsense'.

The controversial new 'farewell intercourse' law was claimed, in Arab media, to be part of a raft of measures being introduced by the Islamist-dominated parliament.

They reported it would also see the minimum age of marriage lowered to 14 and the ridding of women's rights of getting education and employment.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2135434/Egypts-plans-farewell-intercourse-law-husbands-sex-DEAD-wives-branded-complete-nonsense.html


The outrage for me is that men want control of women even after death ....May no mistake TCP the War on Women
continues ....

In the last twenty years, the history of women in ancient Christianity has been almost completely revised.
Women historians entered the field in record ...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/women.html

And from men:
http://www.amazon.com/Women-Early-Christianity-Studies/dp/0815310749/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335601089&sr=1-10

Karen L. King seems to be conflating apples and oranges. There's no reason to assume that Montanist women, Gnostic women and female members of the Corinthian church had a shared set of beliefs just because they share a gender.

As to the identity of the female figure in the Priscilla Catacomb. Here are some other possibilities.

The remains of several female Saints (Philomena, Praxedes and Pudentiana) were buried at different times in the catacomb. It could be one of them.

It may even represent Priscilla (am I really the first to suggest this?)

Father Silence

Doesn't the information about how many churches were endowed by women depend on some of the same testimony used to support Jesus existence? Maybe that is a fiction as well.

Just because a temple is endowed by a women doesn't mean a "Female Mother God' was worshiped there or that female priests preached there. Women have worshiped male gods and vice versa throughout history.

One of the main gods "supplanted" by Christianity was Mithras whose religion was a total sausage fest.

And we should be careful about making cultural assumptions based on the gender of their deities. iAthens was named after a patron goddess. You could be banished for mocking Eleusinian Mysteries. But despite all the goddess worship Athens was a male dominated society in which women had almost no rights at all.



Mary Who? If Jesus is a "fiction" than so is she.



For someone heralding the newfound awareness of the current generation, you seem to rely very heavily on evidence that is 200 years old.

Father Silence

Statue of Queen Hatshepsut, was she a priestess?

I'm not so sure I'd agree with that. We've certainly seen rediscovery, re-examination and re-evaluation of texts that were known but obscure over the last two decades, and while these have broadened the scope I wouldn't call it a complete revision.

TCP

I think you've answered your own question:

After his resurrection Christ gives this mission to his apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

[b]The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize58 , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.



Well, yeah, one would assume that even the Church knows that "anyone" includes women.



If the dying person wanted it, yes.



Why do you believe that?



Could be - assuming, of course, the Provence years aren't pure myth.



Yet we do have a story about the male disciples protesting Jesus teaching a woman, to which Jesus replied he'd make her male. Not quite the same as saying gender is irrelevant.



He wasn't exactly preaching women's liberation though. There's kind and respectful, but it's not the same as telling women to throw off the shackles of misogyny and paternalism by standing up to their fathers and husbands.



No, not if his message was about repentance and forgiveness. That would be hypocritical.



Oh, it was that way centuries before the Inquisition.



Not true in every instance, but mens' voices tended to override. Depended on many other factors, like class. A male peasant would never silence a female aristocrat or noble, for instance. Many women had power too, relatively speaking, it just wasn't co-equal to the men in their class.

TCP

Yes, we know this because of inscriptions proclaiming her "God's Wife of Amun" which would make her a priestess of that god.

FS

On the topic of priestesses, ministers, and saints, the first thing to keep in mind is that there were/are no hard and fast laws or rules defining these titles.

We like to think that priests and priestesses and ministers have received significant training before taking on those titles. This is not the case. In the United States, where religious freedom is protected, wide liberties are taken. Episcopalians, Methodists, Mormons, Catholics, Church of England, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and other faiths have seminary schools that must be attended first. The courses are tough, often taking many years, and admittance is screened..Those with criminal backgrounds or other negative characteristics are usually not admitted..

However, due to the 'freedom of religion clauses', especially in the USA, you can call yourself "ordained" by paying ten dollars over the internet- but you don't even have to go that far! Just howl at the moon in your own "self-ordained" ceremony, and you can call yourself "ordained". Many local strip malls are full of these little churches, each with their own self-ordained ministers. I think there is something "dishonest" about this kind of ordination, but the US Constitution recognizes it..and it thrives all over the world.

If these variations exist today, if anyone can be a priest or priestess in his/her own faith beliefs (regardless how odd they may seem to others) they also existed long ago. As we gaze with curiosity at some weird goddess figure, let's keep in mind how some of these may have originated...........We must treat with care all information about gods, goddesses, and priests...

"Saints" is also a term to be taken with a grain of salt. The Catholic Church recognizes approximately 10,000 saints. Either a miracle was associated with them, or some unusual trait, but mostly they were wealthy donors to the Church..and their guarantee of sainthood was "purchased" and assured..very few of them became saints through good deeds alone. Some who did were Saint Ann (mother of Mary) Saint Nick, Joan of Ark, Mother Theresa (she is nominated for her work in India), Saint Francis of Assisi, Saint Cloud, and others.

Are you sure about this?

If this statue is of a goddess she appears to have some very male characteristics.

Not necessarily - it depends on what aspects of the Jesus story are fictions.

On the topic of priestesses, apostles, ministers, and saints, the first thing to keep in mind is that there were/are no hard and fast laws or rules defining these titles.

We like to think that priests and priestesses and ministers have received significant training before taking on those titles. This is not the case. In the United States, where religious freedom is protected, wide liberties are taken. Episcopalians, Methodists, Mormons, Catholics, Church of England, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and other faiths have seminary schools that must be attended first. The courses are tough, often taking many years, and admittance is screened..Those with criminal backgrounds or other negative characteristics are usually not admitted..

However, due to the 'freedom of religion clauses', especially in the USA, you can call yourself "ordained" by paying ten dollars over the internet- but you don't even have to go that far! Just howl at the moon in your own "self-ordained" ceremony, and you can call yourself "ordained". Many local strip malls are full of little churches, each with their own self-ordained ministers. Some of them run shelters or day care centers, because these can be a lucrative source of grant money, especially under the guise of a religion..

I think there is something "dishonest" about this kind of ordination, but the US Constitution recognizes it..and it thrives all over the world.

If these variations exist today, if anyone can be a priest or priestess in his/her own faith beliefs (regardless how odd they may seem to others) they also existed long ago. As we gaze with curiosity at some weird goddess figure, let's keep in mind how some of these may have originated...........We must treat with care all information about gods, goddesses, and priests...

"Saints" is also a term to be taken with a grain of salt. The Catholic Church recognizes approximately 10,000 saints. Either a miracle was associated with them, or some unusual trait, but mostly they were wealthy donors to the Church..and their guarantee of sainthood was "purchased" and assured..very few of them became saints through good deeds alone. Some who did were Saint Ann (mother of Mary) Saint Nick, Joan of Ark, Mother Theresa (she is nominated for her work in India), Saint Francis of Assisi, Saint Cloud, and others.

Indeed. If the headdress isn't enough of a giveaway, the beard ought to be!

TCP

I think it is valid to suggest that civilizations over the last 6,000 years have gone thru various cycles of matriarchal and patriarchal theosophies. It is said the current patriarchal cycle is coming to an end, to be supplanted again by a matriarchal theosophy.

Vive the divine feminine. (Gotta get with the strength.)

I was under the impression that the coming age would bring balance between the sexes.

TCP

Depends on what and who you read.

But I'm putting my support firmly behind the divine feminine - preferable to a period of prolonged couch surfing.

Then the gender imbalance merely shifts to the opposite pole. I guess that's acceptable to some.

TCP