Arcadia Discussion Zone

Some of you may wish to learn more about the tomb under consideration, the Roza Bal, around which all my research and study has been centered. ..
Please join this group on Facebook....there are authors, documentary film producers,
and a few others who maintain an interest in this topic....
without implying God genes, special powers, ego centric claims...
just a group of nice folks seeking answers in a nice way.

http://www.facebook.com/groups/272570549491332/

This website is exclusively about the tomb and its history. Many of your questions may be answered here:

http://www.tombofjesus.com
Hope to see you there! Have a nice day.

According to the Nicene Creed Jesus is God who became man:



The key points being 'of one Being with the Father', meaning He was supposedly the same 'entity' as God, and 'was made man'. This means Jesus, according to the above at least, was both God and man at the same time. He was supposedly a man who could be bashed up and confused, and He ate and crapped etc. However, as an omnipotent God He could also supposedly make a couple of fish into a pile of fish, walk on water and raise dead people back to life. As a man who ate and crapped, it would seem reasonable to assume that He could also ejectulate. As an omnipotent God, it would seem reasonable to assume that He could impregnate anyone or anything He wanted, woman or banana. He had, after all, only a few decades earlier impregnated His own mother by way of carrier-pigeon.



The only relevance that these hypothetical people would have would be the relevance people gave them. But never underestimate just how credulous some people really are!

Try a laugh.

Wasn't meaning to be critical. Haven't clue what you and TCP are rabbiting on about.

Anyway the subject matter of the two books look pretty interesting - haven't read them but next on the list.

It'd be interesting to ponder just how many more people might have taken you and the Roza Bal tomb seriously, Sue, if you had managed to resist the urge to claim you are descended from Jesus yourself? How much did and will the 'um, I'm descended from Jesus' nonsense take away from the efforts to 'save the tomb'?

Btw, can you answer that question I asked a few posts back?

once a mark, always a mark

The Jews in India- Afghan Jews and DNA Testing,
An interesting article.


http://www.reviewofreligions.org/6107/the-lost-tribes-of-israel-in-india-a-genetic-perspective

Hotspur....thank you....If you have some interest in these topics, you might start with
the links I provided above. A few million people in the world do happen to believe...
In fact an entire religion has been founded around these beliefs (that Jesus survived crucifixion and has a tomb in Kashmir)...
Certainly worthy of study.....I hope you will follow your curiosity further..meanwhile, about six people on this forum already have the book...you might ask them about its contents..
Have a great day.
Shasta

Spart,
This is where I think people today still get confused (not surprisingly as it took the top Christian theological brains in the 4th+ centuries to try to come to a conclusion). I would bet that if you asked all the Christians (professed not necessarily practising) a large proportion would say that Jesus is the Son of G_d and think in human terms - ie that Jesus is external to G-d, much the same as I'm external to my father. I am not the same being as my father. I have the same genetic make up (hopefully), but am not exactly the same.

My understanding of Nicaea and the following councils was that Jesus was declared of the same substance as G_d - ie as you say being exactly the same entity - and at the same time being wholly human (how that works loses me a bit) and that the two were not 'mixed'. So although He was of a divine nature, while human He was entirely human (I'm not sure why someone at the councils then didn't shout in a Michael Paiin voice '...what about the miracles eh?....'ow do you explain them then?...').

I tend to think that the people who go down the 'descendant' route are going back and potentially trying to create a pantheon - with Jesus then being a Son of G-d, as Apollo was the Sun of Zeus. But that's me just projecting as I've not heard on the forums what they actual think the outcome of their ideas are. I had hoped that Shasta or someone who thinks this (the descendant bit) is a viable option would say how they saw it.

Shasta,
Is the link to http://www.tombofjesus.com/index.php?op ... &Itemid=82 from the Tomb of Jesus site that you posted a serious document?

Maybe I'm becoming more cynical in my old age, but it reads like someone who knows the NT version and is using that to construct a new narrative. The whole thing doesn't read like 'letters', but more akin to a prototype plot for a movie to me.

Has anyone else read these 'letters'?

Jlokest,

I raised the same questions in my book.. We have several options:

1. Jesus was human, conceived in the normal way
2. Jesus was son of God.
3. Jesus was son of aliens (in keeping with the ancient alien-basis for religion theory).

I then examined each theory. Rather than draw firm conclusions, I provided as much evidence as I could find to support each theory, and let the reader decide.. I did have access to information that is not well known in the west and included this.

If God exists in the Universe, then he exists for us and for aliens too...Thus we would all be roughly on the same page when it comes to divine guidance and interference.

If God does not exist, and this is all random chance, then every prophet was a pious fraud, and every religion a delusion.

There are no other options. My personal opinion is this: God is usually expressed as imageless intelligent light. When we define intelligence, it may be in our carbon form, or a silicon form, and new breakthroughs in physics state even light has some memory..
This bolsters Biblical claims. Regardless how we got here, we have intelligence (perhaps not on this forum, but it does exist elsewhere)...If we are capable of intelligence, then it can exist anywhere else in other forms. Whether it is God or not is simply a matter of degree of intelligence...It becomes a circular argument at this point...Which came first? God or the Universe. I cant answer that. My personal feeling is that a God does exist. To what degree He is personally involved with us, I do not know. I sure dont believe that He created this world in six days, or flooded out mankind, or sends our souls to hell. I have another whole theory about this stuff but so does everyone else..

I do acknowledge that there are forces at work that we simply don't understand yet..I personally am more comfortable associating these with God. I am a lousy mathematician. Carl Sagan would have a different expression, perhaps he believed that God is in the math.

The answer to you is, there is no answer.
Be rational and reasonable in whatever you believe in....it should give you comfort and make some sense. You can be atheist or Buddhist or Christian. Just be the best you can, keep learning and seeking, and do no harm. There is not other answer for now...
Shasta

IMHO, the descendents of the Mary Magdalene, Jesus, union, would be nearly everybody. Sort of like "everybody is related to Charlemagne".
As for the existence of Jesus beginning at Nicea, there are some 150 writings that name him, most of these authored well before 325AD.
But again these are my own opinions.

That website supports the Ahmaddi Muslim beliefs. They have added that letter more recently because it did not appear before...it is questionable. Some accept it..Many don't.

Thanks for pointing it out...I have not looked through the website in several years. I better go take a closer look when I have time! Thanks for pointing that out! However, I do hope you find other useful information there..and elsewhwere on the INternet...If I find any other links I'll post them...I'm sure by now there must be new websites on these topics...
Shasta

Wayward, I believe the same as you....the whole search for bloodline is pointless if we are trying to prove some precedence or entitlement or fame or special gifts,,

I examined these ideas too in my book. (Yes, I will refer back to my book because that's what authors do).

However, if the search is for historical reasons, then it is just one more tool in the historian's toolbox. Every person on this forum who believes that Magdalene was the bride of Jesus and lived and died in France is speculating on the existence of their progeny.
I took my research in one direction, they in another. We still dont know the answers.

Shasta

Can I ask you directly then - what do you think the descendants may be? Do you think that they are gods, G_d, or simple human beings?

In Kashmir is a family who had been caretakers of the tomb for nearly two thousand years. As you see from the other websites, they believe Jesus is buried there and they are his descendents. They had supporting documents which went missing when the father died a few years ago.. In that family, no one made special claims.

They are mere mortals only interested in their history....and expect nothing in return, not fame or money or Hollywood movies...
Quite a different outlook than these western ideas for instant fame and cash!
It has been said (here in this forum) that descendents from Jesus, if there was even one, today may be millions...Yup. That's possible.
And each can write his/her own book..

What I am emphasizing is seeking the proof.....Christianity is the largest religion on the planet, followed by Islam, which also holds Jesus in high regard. So the answers are important to two-thirds of the earth's inhabitants..we need to explore every option for those answers. Because of past frauds , people who claimed divine descent like Michael La Fosse, and she (who shall remain nameless to protect Andrew from lawyers) the whole research has taken a nose dive and lost all credulity. the proof of that is in the derision right here in this forum...

Never the less, we go forward...and by the way, please don;t be misled by the derision here...My book is about a lot more than my family...that served as the pivot around which I could tell the real story about the cultural terrorism and danger that all these ancient sites face..think Bamyan Buddhas on a global scale..then you've got the picture as I saw it and wrote about it...

Shasta

So as far as you know and believe, the descendants are mortal - from a 'human' and mortal Jesus? OK.
And the Morovee link? So even if they were descended from Jesus were just mortal and no different to you and me?

Do you think then Jesus existed - as you obviously don't seem to believe in the Christian version of His story?

You say you are seeking 'proof' - proof of what then exactly?

Hmmm A lot of questions...Let me try at least to answer some of them.

1. Jesus in the Holy Lands to Jesus in Kashmir to Jesus in Europe..what is the connection?

I see the connection through the history of Jesus in Kashmir. It goes something like this:
The family of Jesus had ancient ties with Kashmir. This is established in several ways that I cover in detail in the book...
including DNA studies...and carvings on old monuments. Jesus had two sons who remained there most of their lives. One son had a son (Jesus' grandchild) who was hidden away due to threats on his life.....this son was still a child when he was rescued and taken away.. I believe this is the connection we've hoped for....how the progeny got from Kashmir to Europe...where the story is picked up and becomes the "bloodline", the desposyni..the Merovingian connection that everyone seeks.

Was Jesus mortal? I presume so.... I think we have misread and misinterpreted much in the accounts of his life and experiences..
It is like defining if a half glass of water is half-empty, or half-full. What you see before you does not change...but the story about the half glass of water may be viewed differently by everyone..or perhaps not, if we can establsih the true story..then there is only one explanation.

The Merovingians led the First Crusade and rebuilt the Church of the Holy Sepulcher after it was destroyed. That Church was presumed to be built over Golgotha and the first tomb of Jesus. In Kashmir is another tomb for Jesus, facing the same threats of destruction from the same enemies for another 1400 years..I was at the second tomb, facing the same threats from the same fundamentalists that our ancestors faced...that's how I tried to link it all together into my book...


Shasta

You're not keeping up j! Shasta claims that she is a descendent of Jesus, so she must believe that He existed. But she makes a good point when she says:



* I'm sure she means 'credibility' here rather than 'credulity'. Credulity is what makes some people actually swallow this bullshit!

Unfortunately, she doesn't recognise her own role in this credibility nose dive...

Sorry Shasta,
I'm easily confused. The 'letters' on the Tomb in India site implies that Jesus died in Palestine and was buried there. Why is that text then on a site about Jesus in India?

So what proof are you after? Let's assume tomorrow you had the results of a DNA test from all the patriarchal tombs on the planet and from the body in the tomb itself. What are you hoping to find? That the people who claim descent from 'tomb person' in Kashmir do have some connection?

If you follow that, then what does that actually say that maybe some person from Palestine, who may have been Jewish, ended up in India? That doesn't strike me as being improbable.
Even if the 'tomb person's DNA' shows NO connection to the claimants and doesn't even turn out to be Jewish, it doesn't even mean the opposite does it (ie that Jesus never was in Kashmir and had children)?

And, even if you can somehow show that body was Jesus's, and the claimants were linked - given that Jesus seems to be simply a man in your mind, then again I ask what are you trying to prove? You say that people are destroying tombs, but you seem as though you want to destroy belief systems - that sounds accusational - it wasn't meant to be- but what relevance the tomb of Jesus once people no longer believe in Jesus (ditto the patriarchs). And if you could prove the link back to Jesus (I won't even bother going there), wouldn't that then hit at the base of Christian belief? Surely there's only relevance because people still DO believe in Jesus?

We're having a bad hair day here....the hot water heater rusted out..coz it's 20 years old ?

water has seeped under carpets and everywhere...
I am making emergency call to Sears....and trying to decide on a water heater tank, or a tankless model

On the bright side, my son went out on the boat and caught the biggest red snapper ever!

Catch ya later....have a nice day.

Spart,
I'm far tooooooo slow for what goes on here. I just get the impression that very few people here actually believe what they're saying or say stuff that they may believe but without any thought as to the effect of what that implies.

and boom goes the dynamite

That would certainly muck up DNA as a genealogy tool.

TCP

IMHO you're not too slow, but perhaps too naive. I'd suggest that because you yourself are intellectually honest, you are assuming others will also be intellectually honest. As we have seen, time and time again, that is not always the case. Unfortunately, reasoned arguments do not work on intellectually dishonest people...

jlockest....We've decided on the tankless model..It is on order and will be here in a day or two...then we need to find a licensed electrian to install. I've never had tankless heater before....anxious to see how they work!

I am saddened to see how Andrew's forum has deteriorated and taken over by a few uncouth people who think they are soooo cool! They believe they are playing devil's advocate, or pushing people off self made thrones...fulfilling their own ego- superiority needs in the process of believing they are righteously destroying others....

They are not really capable of honest intellectual pursuits..

Let me give you an example. I was accused of trying to get DNA for some scheme to become a Merovingian queen or holy ghost or whatever they imagined...No matter how I explained .....they came up with attacks....finally, when I brought in Nat Geo's interest and support of the Project, they went silent and jumped to another issue....and there will be another. And another. It was never about the DNA...they had no interest in that beyond what they could accuse me of. The moment it got too uncomfortable and they could not sustain their positions, they switched very fast.

Another example how quickly someone jumped on 'credulity' verses 'credibility' and made it as demeaning as possible...Oh my. You should see how often I mix up permutations and permiations! That doesn't make me a sleeze or a dishonest woman...it just makes me a bad speller and I promise you that's getting worse in my old age! They'll have plenty of ammunition for the next few years when they see more of my typos...

That is the role they've appointed for themselves ....It's not about research or new ideas...or even old ideas or bloodlines or bad books vs. good books...it's the thrill they get from personal attacks and their perception of knocking people off "pedestals" (as they percieve them to be)...thus, they misread everything...it doesn't hurt me as much as how bad it makes them look ....

I truly feel sorry for them.......ah well....I have to get back to wet carpet issues for remainder of this day..I'm sure there will be six new attacks and more nonsense when I return here again tonight or tomorrow.

A friend told me last night that she got so sick of them she stayed off the forum for several years.....and she almost got lured back in....but decided against it when she saw they haven't changed.

It's just who they are and what they do...poor Andrew.

Shasta