Father Silence wrote:
lovuian wrote:
Father Silence wrote:
I may have stumbled on more Jesus had a twin evidence
It is at Notre Dame in Paris
a wood panel
this photo is copyrighted to a friend of mine who allows me to use
If you notice the pillar with two children joined at the feet
Now some say Thomas is the twin ...but there is a group who think there was a sister twin
But the wood panels tend to indicate a Brother twin
for his is the Wedding of Cana panel at Notre Dame in Paris
this photo copyrighted
What you see is Jesus sitting next to the bridegroom who has roses in his hair and the lady with a crown on her hair
dark complexion....the bridegroom is a Saint ...he has a halo....He looks like Jesus ...a family resemblance
The black servant points to the Mary with a veil and holds up the wine jar
It seems the Middle Ages may have known more about the Wedding at Cana than we do now.
and that would mean the Crusading Knights including the Templars
There is an Medieval tradition that the bride and groom at the Wedding at Cana were John the Evangelist and Mary Magdalene. That would explain the halo on the man sitting next to Jesus (although he's admittedly a bit older and hairier that most depictions of John). The woman sitting next to Jesus is his mother. A servant is informing her about the wine.
The woman without the halo is Mary Magdalene. According to a story from the Golden Legend, John was called by Jesus to abandon his marriage before it was consummated. MM "had thereof indignation that her husband was taken from her, and went and gave herself to all delight, but because it was not convenable that the calling of Saint John should be occasion of her damnation, therefore our Lord converted her mercifully to penance, and because he had taken from her sovereign delight of the flesh, he replenished her with sovereign delight spiritual tofore all other, that is the love of God. And it is said that he ennobled Saint John tofore all other with the sweetness of his familiarity, because he had taken him from the delight aforesaid."
So it's possible she doesn't have a halo because she's not a saint yet.
Father Silence
the Rose bloodline ....Notre Dame is the center of Paris
the prime meridian when Paris was the center of the civilized world. Notre Dame marks the center of Paris, so it was as considered the center of the world, where longitude was defined as zero degrees.
The "Rose Line" is a 20th Century invention. The meridian was established some time after these figures were carved. To me it looks like the roses may be part of an old marriage ritual marking him as the groom.
The Bible tells us that Jesus has brothers and sisters
Jesus had "brothers and sisters", as reported in Mark
Matthew 13:55-56
The canonical Gospels name four brothers, James, Joseph (Joses), Judas and Simon, but only James is known to history, though some associate Simeon of Jerusalem with Simon the brother of Jesus. After Jesus' death, James, "the Lord's brother", was the head of the congregation in Jerusalem[2] and Jesus' relatives may have held positions of authority in the surrounding area.
This is one of those area where my Protestant upbringing puts me at a disadvantage, and it's a pretty murky subject, but here goes:
Some Catholics and others believe "Jude of James" and "Judas not called Iscariot" to be the same person as Jesus' brother of the same name. They interpret the phrase "Jude of James" as "Jude, brother of James". He his also believed to be the same as disciple Thaddeus, who appears in some lists where Jude doesn't. He's also considered by the Catholic Encyclopedia as identical with Simon the Zealot. He is listed as the 2nd Bishop of Jerusalem.
The author of the Epistle of Jude refers to himself as the brother (adelphos) of James.
Hegesippus (quoted by Eusebius) tells of the persecution and martyr of Jude's children.
Speaking of Eusebius: his version of the "Image of Edessa" story refers to "Judas also called Thomas". Other versions of this story (including the Golden Legend's) cast Jude as a companion of Thomas who sends him to Edessa.
Some early Syriac bibles refer to an apostle called Jude Thomas.
The Acts of Thomas, which most scholars think was originally from a Syriac text, clearly identifies Thomas as the twin brother of Jesus. as does the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas.
There is the presentation of Jesus ....he is placed on a pillar
and the Pillar has a plaid on it plaids to the Scots and Irish indicate their family.
Are you sure? Looks like horizontal stripes to me, with some staining on the gold bits. Anyway it looks like the polychrome (which is the same stuff we used to call "paint") is a lot newer than the carving.
lovuian wrote:
...there is a girl with Mary and is that Joseph? he is a saint.
Like a lot of Medieval "Presentations" this looks more like a Catholic christening than any Jewish ceremony. The male figure is Simeon, who is frequently shown in Medieval art as a priest. The female behind Mary is the prophetess Anne, who is mentioned in Luke. The artist forgets she's supposed to e elderly.
lovuian wrote:
...it is the Pillar with the golden children joined at the foot in the same story that is interesting
is it a reference to twins ...Gemini and to Jacob and Esau
Thomas the Apostle or "Didymus", both names meaning "twin" in Aramaic and Greek respectively, is the most well-known Didymus due to his role in early Christian history
The Greek Didymus : in the Gospel of John
The two dancing children appear to be a sculpture in a niche of the temple. I assume that's why they're on a pedestal and appear to be on a rectangular base. I see two possibilities:
a) A lot of Western Christian artists imagined the Jewish Temple to be filled with statues and icons, like a pagan temple or Catholic church, so this may just be a random bit of architectural "background".
b] This may be an extremely inaccurate representation of the Arc of the Covenant as a small box with 2 seraphim on the lid, mounted on a pedestal.
And, yes, the Golden Legend is important if you want to know "what people believed". Many medieval Christians were more familiar with the Legend than with the Bible.
Father Silence[/quote]
lovuian wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts on the wood panels
but then you must see ALL of the panels to get the flow of the artist
Look at the bridegroom and what he looks like and think of your interpretation of it being John ...the young John
and then look at the Last Supper
The Medieval idea of the Holy Grail ...the golden cup which Christ drinks from at the Last Supper
but look at the suppose John...he is feminine now looking with golden reddish hair...joined hands with Jesus over the golden cup
I would argue that the Saint who sits at the table with Jesus is not the one who holds Jesus hand and he holds this Apostles hand ....if it was the they would look the same
this Apostle does not have a halo similar to the rest ....this Apostle is connected to the Golden Cup and closest to Jesus even over Peter
Father Silence
I'd be interested in your ideas
Thank you for posting this. The figure swooning on Jesus bosom is supposed to be John, but I'm not sure how he could have a halo without obscuring a big part of Jesus' face. I think we may be looking at the work of more than one artist working as a team. Notice how Jesus looks kind of like a Klingon in the Cana panel but in the Last Supper his hair is a lighter color, his hairstyle is different and his face more elongated. Some of the differences may also be the result of overpainting.
FS[/quote]
Your Welcome and thanks for your interest
This is Chartres stained glass window of that Last Supper
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/france/chartres-cathedral-stained-glass-photos/slides/w03_7599c-last-supper.jpgit dates back to the 1100's
Here to the Golden Chalice is there
Chretien de Troyes
The Grail is first featured in Perceval, le Conte du Graal (The Story of the Grail) by Chretien de Troyes, who claims he was working from a source book given to him by his patron, Count Philip of Flanders. In this incomplete poem, dated sometime between 1180 and 1191, the object has not yet acquired the implications of holiness it would have in later works. While dining in the magical abode of the Fisher King, Perceval witnesses a wondrous procession in which youths carry magnificent objects from one chamber to another, passing before him at each course of the meal. First comes a young man carrying a bleeding lance, then two boys carrying candelabras. Finally, a beautiful young girl emerges bearing an elaborately decorated graal, or grail.
Chretien refers to his object not as The Grail but as un graal, showing the word was used, in its earliest literary context, as a common noun. For Chretien the grail was a wide, somewhat deep dish or bowl, interesting because it contained not a pike, salmon or lamprey, as the audience may have expected for such a container, but a single Mass wafer which provided sustenance for the Fisher King's crippled father.
Perceval, who had been warned against talking too much, remains silent through all of this, and wakes up the next morning alone. He later learns that if he had asked the appropriate questions about what he saw, he would have healed his maimed host, much to his honor.
Though Chretien's account is the earliest and most influential of all Grail texts, it was in the work of Robert de Boron that the Grail truly became the Holy Grail and assumed the form most familiar to modern readers. In his verse romance Joseph d'Arimathie, composed between 1191 and 1202, Robert tells the story of Joseph of Arimathea acquiring the chalice of the Last Supper to collect Christ's blood upon His removal from the cross. Joseph is thrown in prison where Christ visits him and explains the mysteries of the blessed cup. Upon his release Joseph gathers his in-laws and other followers and travels to the west, and founds a dynasty of Grail keepers that eventually includes Perceval.
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