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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 12:09 pm 
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About the alleged sexless marriage between John the Baptist and MM (or anyone)..
Isn't it a Catholic tradition that nuns "marry" Christ and the Church..that is a sexless marriage.
They take vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience....
could this "wedding" between JtheB and MM have been a fledgling variation of this theme?
Just suggesting......

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 12:33 pm 
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Shasta wrote:
This is why we should care what happens...before it's all lost to us.


http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.280519935361884.65188.100002116392092&type=1&notif_t=photo_album_reply

@Spartacus....give me some time to gather some links for you.

Meanwhile, try these pages:
There are/were five writings attributed to Thomas (yes, I shamelessly use Wikipedia when it comes up early in the search engines):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_%28Apostle%29

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/thomas.html


And do you actually claim that these 'five writings' were genuinely written by a close follower of Jesus (namely Thomas)?

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 3:12 pm 
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Apostle Thomas References:

GOSPEL of THOMAS

The introduction states: "These are the hidden words that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas wrote them down.” Didymus (Greek) and Thomas (Aramaic) both mean "twin". Some critical scholars suspect that this reference to the Apostle Thomas is false, and that therefore the true author is unknown. Source: April D. DeConick 2006 The Original Gospel of Thomas in Translation- page 2.


ACTS OF THOMAS

Fragments of four other cycles of romances around the figure of the apostle Thomas survive, but this is the only complete one. It should not be confused with the early "sayings" Gospel of Thomas mentioned above.. Acts of Thomas is a series of Acts that occurred during the evangelistic mission of Thomas to India. It ends with his martyrdom when he dies pierced with spears. Mainstream Christian tradition rejects the Acts of Thomas as pseudepigraphal and apocryphal, and the Roman Catholic Church declared the Acts as heretical at the Council of Trent.

The view of Jesus in the book could be inferred to be docetic. Thomas is not just Jesus' twin, he is Jesus' identical twin. As such, it is possible that Thomas is meant to represent the earthly, human side of Jesus, while Jesus is entirely spiritual in his being. In this way, Jesus directs Thomas' quest from heaven, while Thomas does the work on earth. For example, when the apostles are casting lots to choose where they will mission, Thomas initially refuses to go to India. However, Jesus appears in human form to sell Thomas as a slave to a merchant going to India, after which Jesus disappears.

Also in line with docetic thinking is Jesus' stance on sex. In one scene, a couple is married, and Jesus miraculously appears to the bride in the bridal chamber. He speaks against having intercourse, even if it is for the purpose of procreation. This indicates that the spiritual world is more important than the earthly one, and as such, Christians should not be concerned with procreation.
source for above is located at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Thomas

------------------------

According to the Church of the East, which began in India while Thomas and Jesus lived, the author of Acts of Thomas was Xenophon, who most probably also wrote the first Acts of Yesu (from which St. Siphor copies and edited later). Xenophon relied on information gathered from years of personal contact with both Jesus and Thomas. He had personally served Thomas daily for a number of years as an accolade. Just to be clear, historically there are two men named Xenophon, and both were Greek. The other was a well-known Greek historian who lived 430 – 354 BC.

Church of the East [Canada]
“The Acts of Thomas was first published in Srinagar, India, before the death of the author, Xenophon. He was well educated in letters and was fluent in the two international languages, Greek (probably his native language) and Aramaic. He worked closely with St. Thomas for many years and set up Church of the East’s library and publishing facility in Srinagar. Xenophon was ordained as Teacher in charge of the area that included (modern) Kashmir, Pakistan, and North India. This was the most important diocese of Church of the East at the time. As Teacher, Xenophon served on the Senior Council seated in Srinagar, which was attended by the Suren (Sarman Brother-hood is discussed elsewhere in this book) and later Kushan kings – not to mention other seers and sages from Persia, China and India.”

“Besides the fact that he was a superb teacher, Xenophon had excellent literary and language skills and was well suited for the task of publisher and librarian. The quality of the work in Acts of Thomas is beyond compare for the time and setting – it is nothing less than a literary masterpiece.
We know that Xenophon was born 20 CE in Takshashila (Taxila), student of letters, wrote Acts of Thomas -first publishing it in chapters from 45 CE onward and by 80 CE (the year St. Siphor died-Jesus died circa 100 AD, also in Kashmir) the first Eastern Bible canon was announced and it included Aof T. Xenophon was fluent in Greek and Aramaic and additionally he mastered (at least) Sanskrit, Bactrian, and the Karoshti and Brahmi scripts. Aof T was completed in 65 or 66 CE, shortly after Siphor arrived in Srinagar. The first publication of the book was in Karoshti but we know of Greek and Aramaic versions that circulated in the West. However, during later years Aof T and other books of the Eastern Bible were published only in Devanagari script, especially during the Gupta period and beyond.”

The Acts of Yesu have an uncertain author, although it probably began with writings from Xenophon, then copied from first and second century manuscripts in several languages including Karoshti, Aramaic, and Greek. In spite of efforts to suppress Acts of Yesu, it was one of the most treasured books of the Syrian and Nazorean Christians.

Xenophon was 18 years old when he met Yesu in 38 CE (Aof T 3:16ff). Xenophon left his body somewhere between the age of seventy and seventy three –we don’t know the year, except that “the great and enlightened King Kanishka buried Teacher Xen-ophon with great honors in the same tomb used for blessed Teacher Siphor.

Kanishka came to power in 78 CE, Xenophon was about 68 years old, and alive in 80 CE, but in 83 CE, his passing is lamented by a prosaic lover (the “comely girl” of Aof T 3:16ff). Takshashila (Taxila) was Xenophon’s earlier home.”

This information also appears in my book, after I had several years of emails and letters from Reverend Yajn and Church of the East. When they fled Kashmir, they brought with them many ancient Church documents and relics belonging personally to their Church. According to Reverend Yajn, these would verify many of the early writings…He said he hoped to house them in a museum one day….but then he died, and I have no idea what became of these things after that. I know some went to South Africa...and some to Canada.

In addition to the two above discussed sources that are linked to Thomas, there are many other sources mentioning events in the life of Thomas, such as his appearance after the Dormition or Assumption (falling alseep) of Mother Mary, when he received her 'sash'. No writer ever included the idea that Thomas was witnessing the death of his own mother....which seems highly suspect if he were indeed her natural born son...

From John the Theologian, The Dormition of the Holy Theotokos
(Her death is not recorded in scripture. Hyppolitus of Thebes claims that Mary lived for eleven years after the crucifixion, dying in 41 AD.[)

This Greek narrative is one of the earliest witnesses to the "Bethlehem" traditions of the Virgin Mary's Dormition, so-called because some of their events take place in Bethlehem. This is in contrast to other early traditions in which the setting is limited to Jerusalem. This narrative is probably from the sixth century, although it is difficult to be certain. It has tightly condensed earlier traditions that are evident in two Syriac manuscripts from the sixth century, as well as in later Syriac, Ethiopic, and Arabic narratives.

And with the departure of her blameless soul (the death of Mother Mary) the place was filled with perfume and ineffable light; and, behold, a voice out of the heaven was heard, saying: Blessed art thou among women. And Peter, and I John, and Paul, and Thomas, ran and wrapped up her precious feet for the consecration; and the twelve apostles put her precious and holy body upon a couch, and carried it. These writings are presumed to be based upon earlier writings, and then modified again and again.. What I noted again and again is no hint that this was the mother of Thomas.

Although Thomas may be referred to as brother of Jesus, I see no support for the suggestion that this was meant in the literal sense..

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Last edited by Shasta on 07 Apr 2012 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 3:19 pm 
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Shasta wrote:
About the alleged sexless marriage between John the Baptist and MM (or anyone)..
Isn't it a Catholic tradition that nuns "marry" Christ and the Church..that is a sexless marriage.
They take vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience....
could this "wedding" between JtheB and MM have been a fledgling variation of this theme?
Just suggesting......


It's John the Evangelist (Bar Zebedee) whose supposed to have married MM, not John the Baptist. It's not so much a theory as a tradition and a fairly late one that grew over time.

I think the actual term used by the RCC is "celibate marriage" and is likely an attempt to resolve Church dogma that demonizes sex while praising marriage.

FS

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 3:35 pm 
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OOOPs Thanks for the correction Father Silence...John the Evangelist, not John the Baptist...got it.

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 Post subject: Re: A grid
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 4:53 pm 
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hotspur wrote:
Tommy,

It is clear that Roger is frightened of explaining himself beyond pissing on people from a great height.

He knows scrutiny of his pontifications would reveal them to have no foundation.

At least Roscoe, more or less, puts it out there.



Et si, comme ca pour voir, vous branchiez vos cerveaux? En reflechissant un tout petit peu, vous pourriez soudain atteindre des niveaux de comprehension auxquels vous n'etes guere habitues.

Et ce serait tres gentil d'arreter de m'emmerder parceque vous croyez que je suis quelqu'un qui vous a blesse dans votre ignorance. Ca se reflete sur vous, et pas en bien.

Le Sot Pecheur est une explication/description du processus de decryptage. Je suis certain que vous etes capables de vous en assurer par vous memes.


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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 5:47 pm 
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Sot Pechuer? A drunken fisherman? ( sorry, my French a little slow on the uptake at times).

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 Post subject: Re: A grid
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 8:32 pm 
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Tertius wrote:
hotspur wrote:
Tommy,

It is clear that Roger is frightened of explaining himself beyond pissing on people from a great height.

He knows scrutiny of his pontifications would reveal them to have no foundation.

At least Roscoe, more or less, puts it out there.



Et si, comme ca pour voir, vous branchiez vos cerveaux? En reflechissant un tout petit peu, vous pourriez soudain atteindre des niveaux de comprehension auxquels vous n'etes guere habitues.

Et ce serait tres gentil d'arreter de m'emmerder parceque vous croyez que je suis quelqu'un qui vous a blesse dans votre ignorance. Ca se reflete sur vous, et pas en bien.

Le Sot Pecheur est une explication/description du processus de decryptage. Je suis certain que vous etes capables de vous en assurer par vous memes.


Ok Roger,
I'm guessing that in the absence of any supporting evidence that's just an opinion..................
How about an .'AMAM'...........
As a polygot have you had a mini stroke that means you've forgotten to speak a language? :shock:
BTW The great news is that you've not injured me at all! I'm delighted that you've reduced yourself to this absurd position of sniping from the shadows in a foriegn tongue even though you managed almost 100 posts in english!
Is it performance art? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Despite your Franco-Italian heritage even you must have a sense of the absurd, I can keep this up forever, can you?
PM me when you want to break this impasse!
TD :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: A grid
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 8:44 pm 
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Tertius wrote:
hotspur wrote:
Et si, comme ca pour voir, vous branchiez vos cerveaux? En reflechissant un tout petit peu, vous pourriez soudain atteindre des niveaux de comprehension auxquels vous n'etes guere habitues.




You may well be correct Roger - although I am wondering if the ethereal heights you occupy have left your brain oxygen deficient - might explain the apparent loss of some language faculties.

At least you could learn to pee straight. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 10:37 pm 
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Shasta wrote:

Although Thomas may be referred to as brother of Jesus, I see no support for the suggestion that this was meant in the literal sense..



Was this an apellation that applied only to Thomas or were others (who were clearly not his natural brother) called the brother of Jesus?

It also said that Thomas was the only one of the apostles to witness the assumption of Mary - why him?

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 11:33 pm 
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Hotspur, I have not read that Thomas was the only one...it is mostly written that all the apostles who were alive at the time, all of them managed to come see her before she died...

Also, I recall that many apostles were called Jesus' "brothers".....which some claim was edited from the original "brethern" of Jesus.
There is no word for biological brother in either Aramaic, which Jesus spoke, or in Hebrew. In Luke’s account (Lk. 2:42) of the multi-week pilgrimage the Holy Family made for Passover to Jerusalem, and the three-day search for Jesus, no mention is made of younger siblings. Jesus on the cross entrusted his mother to the “beloved disciple,” not to any biological children, as one might have expected if there were any.



This is still the custom in Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and parts of India...the extended family of cousins and half-brothers are all referred to as brethren or brothers...I had an assistant from Peshawar whm I hired in Murree. Her name was Tehseen.
When we went to visit her family in Peshawar, I met thirty of her brothers and sisters! That's when I learned about this tradition...

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Last edited by Shasta on 08 Apr 2012 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 11:57 pm 
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Shasta wrote:
Hotspur, I have not read that Thomas was the only one...it is mostly written that all the apostles who were alive at the time, all of them managed to come see her before she died...



I read it in one of your links.

It says Thomas was the only to witness the assumption.

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 12:03 am 
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Hotspur,

Not sure on this....Like you, I would have to go back and read several web pages for sources and clarification...

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 6:17 pm 
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la Dormition et l'Assomption sont deux evenements distincts et non simultanes.


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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 8:35 pm 
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Father Silence wrote:
lovuian wrote:

I may have stumbled on more Jesus had a twin evidence
It is at Notre Dame in Paris
a wood panel

Image
this photo is copyrighted to a friend of mine who allows me to use
If you notice the pillar with two children joined at the feet
Now some say Thomas is the twin ...but there is a group who think there was a sister twin

But the wood panels tend to indicate a Brother twin
for his is the Wedding of Cana panel at Notre Dame in Paris
Image
this photo copyrighted
What you see is Jesus sitting next to the bridegroom who has roses in his hair and the lady with a crown on her hair
dark complexion....the bridegroom is a Saint ...he has a halo....He looks like Jesus ...a family resemblance
The black servant points to the Mary with a veil and holds up the wine jar
It seems the Middle Ages may have known more about the Wedding at Cana than we do now. :wink: and that would mean the Crusading Knights including the Templars


There is an Medieval tradition that the bride and groom at the Wedding at Cana were John the Evangelist and Mary Magdalene. That would explain the halo on the man sitting next to Jesus (although he's admittedly a bit older and hairier that most depictions of John). The woman sitting next to Jesus is his mother. A servant is informing her about the wine.

The woman without the halo is Mary Magdalene. According to a story from the Golden Legend, John was called by Jesus to abandon his marriage before it was consummated. MM "had thereof indignation that her husband was taken from her, and went and gave herself to all delight, but because it was not convenable that the calling of Saint John should be occasion of her damnation, therefore our Lord converted her mercifully to penance, and because he had taken from her sovereign delight of the flesh, he replenished her with sovereign delight spiritual tofore all other, that is the love of God. And it is said that he ennobled Saint John tofore all other with the sweetness of his familiarity, because he had taken him from the delight aforesaid."

So it's possible she doesn't have a halo because she's not a saint yet.

Father Silence


Father Silence thanks for bringing up the Golden legend
that could be one interpretation

I have never seen a Wedding of Cana like this
the Jesus does bear a remarkable resemblance to the man next to him
the table arrangement indicates that the groom is family to Jesus and Mary

with his crown of red roses ....could it not indicate the ROSE LINE
the Rose bloodline ....Notre Dame is the center of Paris
the prime meridian when Paris was the center of the civilized world. Notre Dame marks the center of Paris, so it was as considered the center of the world, where longitude was defined as zero degrees.

The Bible tells us that Jesus has brothers and sisters
Jesus had "brothers and sisters", as reported in Mark
Matthew 13:55-56
The canonical Gospels name four brothers, James, Joseph (Joses), Judas and Simon, but only James is known to history, though some associate Simeon of Jerusalem with Simon the brother of Jesus. After Jesus' death, James, "the Lord's brother", was the head of the congregation in Jerusalem[2] and Jesus' relatives may have held positions of authority in the surrounding area.


The literal conclusion from what is written in the New Testament is that Jesus' siblings were children of Mary and Joseph, as accepted by some members of the early Christian church, later called the Antidicomarianites; however, when Helvidius proposed this idea in the 4th century, Jerome the Just maintained that Mary remained always a virgin, and held that those who were called the brothers and sisters of Jesus were actually children of Clopas, a brother-in-law of Mary.[7][8] The terms "brothers" and "sisters" as used in this context are open to different interpretations,[9] and since have been argued to refer to children of Joseph by a previous marriage, Mary's sister's children, or Joseph's sister's children.[7] Critical scholars say that the doctrine of perpetual virginity has long obscured the recognition that Jesus had siblings.[10]

The New Testament names James the Just, Joses, Simon, and Jude as the adelphoi of Jesus

There is the presentation of Jesus ....he is placed on a pillar
and the Pillar has a plaid on it...plaids to the Scots and Irish indicate their family
there is a girl with Mary and is that Joseph? he is a saint
it is the Pillar with the golden children joined at the foot in the same story that is interesting
is it a reference to twins ...Gemini and to Jacob and Esau
Thomas the Apostle or "Didymus", both names meaning "twin" in Aramaic and Greek respectively, is the most well-known Didymus due to his role in early Christian history
The Greek Didymus : in the Gospel of John

The Nag Hammadi "sayings" Gospel of Thomas begins: "These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded." Syrian tradition also states that the apostle's full name was Thomas. Some have seen in the Acts of Thomas (written in east Syria in the early 3rd century, or perhaps as early as the first half of the 2nd century) an identification of Saint Thomas with the apostle Judas brother of James, better known in English as Jude. However, the first sentence of the Acts follows the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles in distinguishing the apostle Thomas and the apostle Judas son of James. Few texts identify Thomas' other twin, though in the Book of Thomas the Contender, part of the Nag Hammadi library, it is said to be Jesus himself: "Now, since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion, examine yourself

It is interesting the wood panels and yes Father Silence the Golden legend an interpretation
We are talking about what people believe ....not if there is a real Jesus real magdalene
we are talking about what did the crusaders believe and royal families in their spiritual teachings

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 10:21 pm 
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Tertius wrote:
la Dormition et l'Assomption sont deux evenements distincts et non simultanes.



What is the point you are making Roger?

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 11:08 pm 
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hotspur wrote:
Tertius wrote:
la Dormition et l'Assomption sont deux evenements distincts et non simultanes.



What is the point you are making Roger?


His Eminence is toeing the party line!
It's liturgical and dogmatic semantics!
The question is; why, after almost 100 posts in English is he only posting in french?
Is it performance art?
Pax Vobiscum
TD :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 1:24 am 
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Thomas D. wrote:
It's liturgical and dogmatic semantics!


Tommy, did you know that the word dogmatic is a neologism of "dog" and "automatic"?

Some may consider the word superfluous, as prima facie, it appears laced with tautology.

But that aside, from "dog" we can come easily to "pavlovian".

Although not exactly the same, "pavlovian" and "automatic" are not far from being synonymous.

And in which case, Roger's kneejerk posts regarding religious matters, "dogmatic" seems entirely apt.

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 1:52 am 
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lovuian wrote:
Father Silence wrote:
lovuian wrote:

I may have stumbled on more Jesus had a twin evidence
It is at Notre Dame in Paris
a wood panel

Image
this photo is copyrighted to a friend of mine who allows me to use
If you notice the pillar with two children joined at the feet
Now some say Thomas is the twin ...but there is a group who think there was a sister twin

But the wood panels tend to indicate a Brother twin
for his is the Wedding of Cana panel at Notre Dame in Paris
Image
this photo copyrighted
What you see is Jesus sitting next to the bridegroom who has roses in his hair and the lady with a crown on her hair
dark complexion....the bridegroom is a Saint ...he has a halo....He looks like Jesus ...a family resemblance
The black servant points to the Mary with a veil and holds up the wine jar
It seems the Middle Ages may have known more about the Wedding at Cana than we do now. :wink: and that would mean the Crusading Knights including the Templars


There is an Medieval tradition that the bride and groom at the Wedding at Cana were John the Evangelist and Mary Magdalene. That would explain the halo on the man sitting next to Jesus (although he's admittedly a bit older and hairier that most depictions of John). The woman sitting next to Jesus is his mother. A servant is informing her about the wine.

The woman without the halo is Mary Magdalene. According to a story from the Golden Legend, John was called by Jesus to abandon his marriage before it was consummated. MM "had thereof indignation that her husband was taken from her, and went and gave herself to all delight, but because it was not convenable that the calling of Saint John should be occasion of her damnation, therefore our Lord converted her mercifully to penance, and because he had taken from her sovereign delight of the flesh, he replenished her with sovereign delight spiritual tofore all other, that is the love of God. And it is said that he ennobled Saint John tofore all other with the sweetness of his familiarity, because he had taken him from the delight aforesaid."

So it's possible she doesn't have a halo because she's not a saint yet.

Father Silence


lovuian wrote:
Father Silence thanks for bringing up the Golden legend
that could be one interpretation

I have never seen a Wedding of Cana like this
the Jesus does bear a remarkable resemblance to the man next to him
the table arrangement indicates that the groom is family to Jesus and Mary


John is believed by many to be Jesus 1st cousin. The Golden Legend says his mother, Mary Salome, was Mary's 3rd sister. The figure in th3e carving has long hair and a beard like Jesus but I wouldn't call the resemblance remarkable.

lovuian wrote:
with his crown of red roses ....could it not indicate the ROSE LINE
the Rose bloodline ....Notre Dame is the center of Paris
the prime meridian when Paris was the center of the civilized world. Notre Dame marks the center of Paris, so it was as considered the center of the world, where longitude was defined as zero degrees.


The "Rose Line" is a 20th Century invention. The meridian was established some time after these figures were carved. To me it looks like the roses may be part of an old marriage ritual marking him as the groom.

lovuian wrote:
The Bible tells us that Jesus has brothers and sisters
Jesus had "brothers and sisters", as reported in Mark
Matthew 13:55-56
The canonical Gospels name four brothers, James, Joseph (Joses), Judas and Simon, but only James is known to history, though some associate Simeon of Jerusalem with Simon the brother of Jesus. After Jesus' death, James, "the Lord's brother", was the head of the congregation in Jerusalem[2] and Jesus' relatives may have held positions of authority in the surrounding area.


This is one of those area where my Protestant upbringing puts me at a disadvantage, and it's a pretty murky subject, but here goes:

Some Catholics and others believe "Jude of James" and "Judas not called Iscariot" to be the same person as Jesus' brother of the same name. They interpret the phrase "Jude of James" as "Jude, brother of James". He his also believed to be the same as disciple Thaddeus, who appears in some lists where Jude doesn't. He's also considered by the Catholic Encyclopedia as identical with Simon the Zealot. He is listed as the 2nd Bishop of Jerusalem.

The author of the Epistle of Jude refers to himself as the brother (adelphos) of James.

Hegesippus (quoted by Eusebius) tells of the persecution and martyrdom of Jude's children.

Speaking of Eusebius: his version of the "Image of Edessa" story refers to "Judas also called Thomas". Other versions of this story (including the Golden Legend's) cast Jude as a companion of Thomas who sends him to Edessa.

Some early Syriac bibles refer to an apostle called Jude Thomas.

The Acts of Thomas, which most scholars think was originally from a Syriac text, clearly identifies Thomas as the twin brother of Jesus. as does the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas.

lovuian wrote:
There is the presentation of Jesus ....he is placed on a pillar
and the Pillar has a plaid on it plaids to the Scots and Irish indicate their family.


Are you sure? Looks like horizontal stripes to me, with some staining on the gold bits. Anyway it looks like the polychrome (which is the same stuff we used to call "paint") is a lot newer than the carving.

lovuian wrote:
...there is a girl with Mary and is that Joseph? he is a saint.


Like a lot of Medieval "Presentations" this looks more like a Catholic christening than any Jewish ceremony. The male figure is Simeon, who is frequently shown in Medieval art as a priest. The female behind Mary is the prophetess Anne, who is mentioned in Luke. The artist forgets she's supposed to e elderly.


lovuian wrote:
...it is the Pillar with the golden children joined at the foot in the same story that is interesting
is it a reference to twins ...Gemini and to Jacob and Esau
Thomas the Apostle or "Didymus", both names meaning "twin" in Aramaic and Greek respectively, is the most well-known Didymus due to his role in early Christian history
The Greek Didymus : in the Gospel of John


The two dancing children appear to be a sculpture in a niche of the temple. I assume that's why they're on a pedestal and appear to be on a rectangular base. I see two possibilities:

a) A lot of Western Christian artists imagined the Jewish Temple to be filled with statues and icons, like a pagan temple or Catholic church, so this may just be a random bit of architectural "background".

b] This may be an extremely inaccurate representation of the Arc of the Covenant as a small box with 2 seraphim on the lid, mounted on a pedestal.

And, yes, the Golden Legend is important if you want to know "what people believed". Many medieval Christians were more familiar with the Legend than with the Bible.


Father Silence story refers to

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Last edited by Father Silence on 09 Apr 2012 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 2:23 am 
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@Tertius;

Dormition versus Assumption

Quote:
The Dormition of the Theotokos is celebrated on August 15 (August 28, N.S. for those following the Julian Calendar), the same calendar day as the Roman Catholic Feast of the Assumption of Mary. The Dormition and the Assumption are different names for the same event, Mary's departure from the earth, although the beliefs are not entirely the same.

The Orthodox Church teaches that Mary died a natural death, like any human being; that her soul was received by Christ upon death; and that her body was resurrected on the third day after her repose, at which time she was taken up, bodily only, into heaven. Her tomb was found empty on the third day.

Roman Catholic teaching holds that Mary was "assumed" into heaven in bodily form, just as her son Jesus ascended. Some Catholics agree with the Orthodox that this happened after Mary's death, while some hold that she did not experience death. Pope Pius XII, in his Apostolic constitution, Munificentissimus Deus (1950), which dogmatically defined the Assumption, left open the question of whether or not Mary actually underwent death in connection with her departure, but alludes to the fact of her death at least five times.

Both churches agree that she was taken up into heaven bodily. The Orthodox belief regarding Mary's falling asleep are expressed in the liturgical texts used of the feast of the Dormition (August 15) which is one of the Twelve Great Feasts of the Orthodox Church, and is held by all pious Orthodox Christians.

The Eastern Catholic observance of the feast corresponds to that of their Orthodox counterparts, whether Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox.

The Dormition is known as the Death of the Virgin in Catholic art, where it is a reasonably common subject, mostly drawing on Byzantine models, until the end of the Middle Ages. The Death of the Virgin by Caravaggio, of 1606, is probably the last famous Western painting of the subject.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Theotokos

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 2:46 am 
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Father Silence wrote:
Father Silence wrote:

I may have stumbled on more Jesus had a twin evidence
It is at Notre Dame in Paris
a wood panel

Image
this photo is copyrighted to a friend of mine who allows me to use
If you notice the pillar with two children joined at the feet
Now some say Thomas is the twin ...but there is a group who think there was a sister twin

But the wood panels tend to indicate a Brother twin
for his is the Wedding of Cana panel at Notre Dame in Paris
Image
this photo copyrighted
What you see is Jesus sitting next to the bridegroom who has roses in his hair and the lady with a crown on her hair
dark complexion....the bridegroom is a Saint ...he has a halo....He looks like Jesus ...a family resemblance
The black servant points to the Mary with a veil and holds up the wine jar
It seems the Middle Ages may have known more about the Wedding at Cana than we do now. :wink: and that would mean the Crusading Knights including the Templars

There is an Medieval tradition that the bride and groom at the Wedding at Cana were John the Evangelist and Mary Magdalene. That would explain the halo on the man sitting next to Jesus (although he's admittedly a bit older and hairier that most depictions of John). The woman sitting next to Jesus is his mother. A servant is informing her about the wine.

The woman without the halo is Mary Magdalene. According to a story from the Golden Legend, John was called by Jesus to abandon his marriage before it was consummated. MM "had thereof indignation that her husband was taken from her, and went and gave herself to all delight, but because it was not convenable that the calling of Saint John should be occasion of her damnation, therefore our Lord converted her mercifully to penance, and because he had taken from her sovereign delight of the flesh, he replenished her with sovereign delight spiritual tofore all other, that is the love of God. And it is said that he ennobled Saint John tofore all other with the sweetness of his familiarity, because he had taken him from the delight aforesaid."

So it's possible she doesn't have a halo because she's not a saint yet.

Father Silence


the Rose bloodline ....Notre Dame is the center of Paris
the prime meridian when Paris was the center of the civilized world. Notre Dame marks the center of Paris, so it was as considered the center of the world, where longitude was defined as zero degrees.


The "Rose Line" is a 20th Century invention. The meridian was established some time after these figures were carved. To me it looks like the roses may be part of an old marriage ritual marking him as the groom.

The Bible tells us that Jesus has brothers and sisters
Jesus had "brothers and sisters", as reported in Mark
Matthew 13:55-56
The canonical Gospels name four brothers, James, Joseph (Joses), Judas and Simon, but only James is known to history, though some associate Simeon of Jerusalem with Simon the brother of Jesus. After Jesus' death, James, "the Lord's brother", was the head of the congregation in Jerusalem[2] and Jesus' relatives may have held positions of authority in the surrounding area.


This is one of those area where my Protestant upbringing puts me at a disadvantage, and it's a pretty murky subject, but here goes:

Some Catholics and others believe "Jude of James" and "Judas not called Iscariot" to be the same person as Jesus' brother of the same name. They interpret the phrase "Jude of James" as "Jude, brother of James". He his also believed to be the same as disciple Thaddeus, who appears in some lists where Jude doesn't. He's also considered by the Catholic Encyclopedia as identical with Simon the Zealot. He is listed as the 2nd Bishop of Jerusalem.

The author of the Epistle of Jude refers to himself as the brother (adelphos) of James.

Hegesippus (quoted by Eusebius) tells of the persecution and martyr of Jude's children.

Speaking of Eusebius: his version of the "Image of Edessa" story refers to "Judas also called Thomas". Other versions of this story (including the Golden Legend's) cast Jude as a companion of Thomas who sends him to Edessa.

Some early Syriac bibles refer to an apostle called Jude Thomas.

The Acts of Thomas, which most scholars think was originally from a Syriac text, clearly identifies Thomas as the twin brother of Jesus. as does the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas.

lovuian wrote:
There is the presentation of Jesus ....he is placed on a pillar
and the Pillar has a plaid on it plaids to the Scots and Irish indicate their family.


Are you sure? Looks like horizontal stripes to me, with some staining on the gold bits. Anyway it looks like the polychrome (which is the same stuff we used to call "paint") is a lot newer than the carving.

lovuian wrote:
...there is a girl with Mary and is that Joseph? he is a saint.


Like a lot of Medieval "Presentations" this looks more like a Catholic christening than any Jewish ceremony. The male figure is Simeon, who is frequently shown in Medieval art as a priest. The female behind Mary is the prophetess Anne, who is mentioned in Luke. The artist forgets she's supposed to e elderly.


lovuian wrote:
...it is the Pillar with the golden children joined at the foot in the same story that is interesting
is it a reference to twins ...Gemini and to Jacob and Esau
Thomas the Apostle or "Didymus", both names meaning "twin" in Aramaic and Greek respectively, is the most well-known Didymus due to his role in early Christian history
The Greek Didymus : in the Gospel of John
[/quote]

The two dancing children appear to be a sculpture in a niche of the temple. I assume that's why they're on a pedestal and appear to be on a rectangular base. I see two possibilities:

a) A lot of Western Christian artists imagined the Jewish Temple to be filled with statues and icons, like a pagan temple or Catholic church, so this may just be a random bit of architectural "background".

b] This may be an extremely inaccurate representation of the Arc of the Covenant as a small box with 2 seraphim on the lid, mounted on a pedestal.

And, yes, the Golden Legend is important if you want to know "what people believed". Many medieval Christians were more familiar with the Legend than with the Bible.


Father Silence[/quote]

Thanks for your thoughts on the wood panels
but then you must see ALL of the panels to get the flow of the artist

Look at the bridegroom and what he looks like and think of your interpretation of it being John ...the young John
and then look at the Last Supper

Image

The Medieval idea of the Holy Grail ...the golden cup which Christ drinks from at the Last Supper
but look at the suppose John...he is feminine now looking with golden reddish hair...joined hands with Jesus over the golden cup

I would argue that the Saint who sits at the table with Jesus is not the one who holds Jesus hand and he holds this Apostles hand ....if it was the they would look the same

this Apostle does not have a halo similar to the rest ....this Apostle is connected to the Golden Cup and closest to Jesus even over Peter

Father Silence
I'd be interested in your ideas

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 3:21 am 
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Joined: 15 Oct 2010 7:47 pm
Posts: 642
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lovuian wrote:
Father Silence wrote:
Father Silence wrote:

I may have stumbled on more Jesus had a twin evidence
It is at Notre Dame in Paris
a wood panel

Image
this photo is copyrighted to a friend of mine who allows me to use
If you notice the pillar with two children joined at the feet
Now some say Thomas is the twin ...but there is a group who think there was a sister twin

But the wood panels tend to indicate a Brother twin
for his is the Wedding of Cana panel at Notre Dame in Paris
Image
this photo copyrighted
What you see is Jesus sitting next to the bridegroom who has roses in his hair and the lady with a crown on her hair
dark complexion....the bridegroom is a Saint ...he has a halo....He looks like Jesus ...a family resemblance
The black servant points to the Mary with a veil and holds up the wine jar
It seems the Middle Ages may have known more about the Wedding at Cana than we do now. :wink: and that would mean the Crusading Knights including the Templars

There is an Medieval tradition that the bride and groom at the Wedding at Cana were John the Evangelist and Mary Magdalene. That would explain the halo on the man sitting next to Jesus (although he's admittedly a bit older and hairier that most depictions of John). The woman sitting next to Jesus is his mother. A servant is informing her about the wine.

The woman without the halo is Mary Magdalene. According to a story from the Golden Legend, John was called by Jesus to abandon his marriage before it was consummated. MM "had thereof indignation that her husband was taken from her, and went and gave herself to all delight, but because it was not convenable that the calling of Saint John should be occasion of her damnation, therefore our Lord converted her mercifully to penance, and because he had taken from her sovereign delight of the flesh, he replenished her with sovereign delight spiritual tofore all other, that is the love of God. And it is said that he ennobled Saint John tofore all other with the sweetness of his familiarity, because he had taken him from the delight aforesaid."

So it's possible she doesn't have a halo because she's not a saint yet.

Father Silence


the Rose bloodline ....Notre Dame is the center of Paris
the prime meridian when Paris was the center of the civilized world. Notre Dame marks the center of Paris, so it was as considered the center of the world, where longitude was defined as zero degrees.


The "Rose Line" is a 20th Century invention. The meridian was established some time after these figures were carved. To me it looks like the roses may be part of an old marriage ritual marking him as the groom.

The Bible tells us that Jesus has brothers and sisters
Jesus had "brothers and sisters", as reported in Mark
Matthew 13:55-56
The canonical Gospels name four brothers, James, Joseph (Joses), Judas and Simon, but only James is known to history, though some associate Simeon of Jerusalem with Simon the brother of Jesus. After Jesus' death, James, "the Lord's brother", was the head of the congregation in Jerusalem[2] and Jesus' relatives may have held positions of authority in the surrounding area.


This is one of those area where my Protestant upbringing puts me at a disadvantage, and it's a pretty murky subject, but here goes:

Some Catholics and others believe "Jude of James" and "Judas not called Iscariot" to be the same person as Jesus' brother of the same name. They interpret the phrase "Jude of James" as "Jude, brother of James". He his also believed to be the same as disciple Thaddeus, who appears in some lists where Jude doesn't. He's also considered by the Catholic Encyclopedia as identical with Simon the Zealot. He is listed as the 2nd Bishop of Jerusalem.

The author of the Epistle of Jude refers to himself as the brother (adelphos) of James.

Hegesippus (quoted by Eusebius) tells of the persecution and martyr of Jude's children.

Speaking of Eusebius: his version of the "Image of Edessa" story refers to "Judas also called Thomas". Other versions of this story (including the Golden Legend's) cast Jude as a companion of Thomas who sends him to Edessa.

Some early Syriac bibles refer to an apostle called Jude Thomas.

The Acts of Thomas, which most scholars think was originally from a Syriac text, clearly identifies Thomas as the twin brother of Jesus. as does the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas.

lovuian wrote:
There is the presentation of Jesus ....he is placed on a pillar
and the Pillar has a plaid on it plaids to the Scots and Irish indicate their family.


Are you sure? Looks like horizontal stripes to me, with some staining on the gold bits. Anyway it looks like the polychrome (which is the same stuff we used to call "paint") is a lot newer than the carving.

lovuian wrote:
...there is a girl with Mary and is that Joseph? he is a saint.


Like a lot of Medieval "Presentations" this looks more like a Catholic christening than any Jewish ceremony. The male figure is Simeon, who is frequently shown in Medieval art as a priest. The female behind Mary is the prophetess Anne, who is mentioned in Luke. The artist forgets she's supposed to e elderly.


lovuian wrote:
...it is the Pillar with the golden children joined at the foot in the same story that is interesting
is it a reference to twins ...Gemini and to Jacob and Esau
Thomas the Apostle or "Didymus", both names meaning "twin" in Aramaic and Greek respectively, is the most well-known Didymus due to his role in early Christian history
The Greek Didymus : in the Gospel of John


The two dancing children appear to be a sculpture in a niche of the temple. I assume that's why they're on a pedestal and appear to be on a rectangular base. I see two possibilities:

a) A lot of Western Christian artists imagined the Jewish Temple to be filled with statues and icons, like a pagan temple or Catholic church, so this may just be a random bit of architectural "background".

b] This may be an extremely inaccurate representation of the Arc of the Covenant as a small box with 2 seraphim on the lid, mounted on a pedestal.

And, yes, the Golden Legend is important if you want to know "what people believed". Many medieval Christians were more familiar with the Legend than with the Bible.


Father Silence[/quote]

lovuian wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts on the wood panels
but then you must see ALL of the panels to get the flow of the artist

Look at the bridegroom and what he looks like and think of your interpretation of it being John ...the young John
and then look at the Last Supper

Image

The Medieval idea of the Holy Grail ...the golden cup which Christ drinks from at the Last Supper
but look at the suppose John...he is feminine now looking with golden reddish hair...joined hands with Jesus over the golden cup

I would argue that the Saint who sits at the table with Jesus is not the one who holds Jesus hand and he holds this Apostles hand ....if it was the they would look the same

this Apostle does not have a halo similar to the rest ....this Apostle is connected to the Golden Cup and closest to Jesus even over Peter

Father Silence
I'd be interested in your ideas


Thank you for posting this. The figure swooning on Jesus bosom is supposed to be John, but I'm not sure how he could have a halo without obscuring a big part of Jesus' face. I think we may be looking at the work of more than one artist working as a team. Notice how Jesus looks kind of like a Klingon in the Cana panel but in the Last Supper his hair is a lighter color, his hairstyle is different and his face more elongated. Some of the differences may also be the result of overpainting.

FS

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 6:56 am 
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hotspur wrote:
Thomas D. wrote:
It's liturgical and dogmatic semantics!


Tommy, did you know that the word dogmatic is a neologism of "dog" and "automatic"?

Some may consider the word superfluous, as prima facie, it appears laced with tautology.

But that aside, from "dog" we can come easily to "pavlovian".

Although not exactly the same, "pavlovian" and "automatic" are not far from being synonymous.

And in which case, Roger's kneejerk posts regarding religious matters, "dogmatic" seems entirely apt.


Not sure I can agree with you there Hottie!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

Comes from the Greek and refers to an unquestioned belief rather than a newly invented word.
Though I take your point about its Pavlovian (ie 'learnt') responses............. :wink:

Interestingly enough the development of neologisms as a result of Aphasia appears to be pertinent in this case.
It may well answer the question as to why ol' Roger has taken to posting in French! :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphasia

TD :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 7:28 am 
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Thomas D. wrote:
Not sure I can agree with you there Hottie!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

Comes from the Greek and refers to an unquestioned belief rather than a newly invented word.
Though I take your point about its Pavlovian (ie 'learnt') responses............. :wink:

Interestingly enough the development of neologisms as a result of Aphasia appears to be pertinent in this case.
It may well answer the question as to why ol' Roger has taken to posting in French! :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphasia

TD :lol:



Poor ol' Roger - aphasia might explain the demise of his english faculties.

It appears it could be caused by a highly localized blow to the head - for instance, a blow of the sort that may have been sustained in tripping over his ego. A distinct possibility. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Maguelonne
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 4:35 pm 
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Je vois que vous vous resignez a admettre que vous etes trop cons pour verifier mes dires de vous-memes. Ca m'etonne un peu que vous l'admettiez, meme si indirectement. C'est une espece de progres, je suppose.


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