Arcadia Discussion Zone

That's the thing, I was shocked to see a bound little book made of paper! What I was shown was beautiful life size replicas ie high grade images of parchment ie it was on 70 odd pages of real animal skin or something so coloured.
I suppose Suaniere could have done a copy but it seems improbable... unless he wanted a quick reference pocket type tiwas, which would imply he was taking good care of the original but wanted something portable to take to the hiding place of Solomon temple stuff.
I haven't formed any opinion on whether Sauniere was a Rosicrucian. I'm not a practising one (: but was just raised from a toddler with that outlook as my parents were, which tends to tinge my view. I don't see any obvious giveaways except that Sauniere was clearly familiar with a lot of gnostic/'heretic' viewpoints. This is readily explained though by his location, and perhaps his vocation indicates more than a passing interest in matters spiritual. I'm with Simmans and believe he was a Jew or became one at some point, influenced by the gnostic underground of the area.

...could it be that this fake "ye olde spell booke" is simply just another part of the money-making roller-coaster ?

Why do you think he was a Jew?

A lot of reasons.
"Makhir from the House of David and of Narbonne in Aude was a Babylonian-Jewish scholar, perhaps the Exilarch of the Jews of Babylon, certainly the leader of the Jewish community of Narbonne in southern Gaul at the end of the eighth century. His descendants were for many generations the nasi or leaders of that important community, and Carolingian client-kings in Septimania... Makhir is said to have founded a Talmudic school there which vied in greatness with those of Babylonia and which attracted pupils from many distant points."
- Saunieres brother studied in this town of strong Jewish heritage and as an academic likely compared notes
- Sauniere has transmitted knowledge more fitting with Jewish than Catholic belief in the Church
eg the idea Jesus used a stunt double for the crucifixion per his stations of the cross, Jews deny it flatly
eg the hand sign by Magdalene is a swastika or black sun ie the void that is part of the kabbalist creation description or alternately associated with worship of the sun as a symbol for one god as advocated by Akhenaten/the Jewish (? Essene sect) creed.
- Sauniere had the tiwas belonging to Jewish history in his hands, it's contents were not and would not be approved by the Catholic Church dealing with demon relations as such.
- Digging up graves is not a Christian pastime (more placing people in them), though the pastime does not exactly scream Jewishness either I suppose. Not exactly a normal Priest, one of the resistance I say.

There are Catholic Jews today, politics gives them their reasons. "Thousands of Jews were baptized during the war to save their lives, and many still don't know that their parents were Jewish, according to Szewach Weiss, an authority on Polish Jewry" One story here; http://ncronline.org/news/people/cathol ... wish-roots

More later

Re the Jewish Sauniere theory and if it looks like a duck. Tracking ideas is interesting. The Quran and Cathars and Nag Hamm agree the crucifixion is a scam. Look at Cathar belief, which has crossover with some gnostic christian themes and Kabbalist ideas, it suggests inheritance or cross pollination.

Cathar conceptions per Occitan author Yves Rouquette
1. Jesus wasn't a human more an apparition (that BOGMILS say Mary found in a grotto) and did not die on a cross or he was substituted with some one else ie a thief or devil (per Nag Hammadi; Jesus in the Apocalypse of Peter says 'they crucified another one')
2. Reincarnation (also in Nag Hammadi and apparently an idea Jesus advocated)
3. Hell is this world which lasts till all souls return to God

The rest are observations from Simmans last book.
- the Pater Noster is a Kabbalists prayer referring to Kingdom/Power/Glory being the seventh, eight and tenth sephirot of the tree of life, authorship Jesus.
Simmans presents the case that pythagorus was schooled in Egypt and babylon by the Nazarate Ezekiel circa 500BC said by a modern Hebrew Professor Ben Bacholder to be the first Essene. At the time there were pythagorean communities in France, Greece and among Celts (influencing Druids). Ezekiel likely transmitted his esoteric knowledge made up of Chaldean and Zoroastrian secrets that would later be developed into kabbalah to Pythag. The Theraputae and other gnostics of Egypt were late dubbed neo pythags - neo pythags of which Jesus was one survived in France.

Jesus touted "Be ye therefore perfect as your Father who is in Heaven" (Mathew 5:48 encouraging them to become one with divinity. Perfecti that escape reincarnation in the Cathar version.

The muslims took /jewish/Christian Narbonne in the 700's - Machir or Theirry as he was also known was the count and recognised by Muslims as seed of David - Jews had been led by their 'royals' abroad since deportation by Nebuchadnezzar 600 BC.In 792 Machirs son established a rabbinical college and Jewish library = later taken over by Benedictines.. so the books were likely accessible to Sauniere and his brother whether kept in Narbonne (Jewish for Ner Binah "the light of understanding") or buried away in the Vatican.

Hanging on the wall in the now Catholic Abbey of Guillaume (Machirs Jewish son) is a remarkable clue to its past. A ninth century painting showing a Madonna wearing a breastplate studded with 12 precious stones exactly like the breastplate worn by Aaron and the high priests in the Jerusalem temple. The mother of Jesus in the attire of a Jewish high priest!

Gnosticism survived in the dark ages. While moderns may have lost much tangible trace until the Nag Hammadi was found there is evidence its content was well known all along to those in the know in the Continent ie France/Germany etc (hence the Catholics heretic hunts).

The text Schweister Katrei circa 1330 by a female disciple of Meister Eckhart in Germany not only refers to Magdalene in ways reminiscent of Cathar ways but it contains phrases about Mary otherwise only found in the Nag Hammadi eg refers to her tension with Peter and superiority in understanding over him. Clearly the Nag Hammadi texts and so forth giving fuller info about the bible 'story' were still in use in Europe at the time of the inquisition!

The Templars largely came from Southern France and likely decided to go on a Temple dig because they too had received gnostic/jewish knowledge or bloodlines that provoked them to go after something.

When the baphomet (the thing they were persecuted for honoring) is written in Hebrew then ciphered with the Atbash cipher formerly used by the Essenes at Qumran more than a millenia before the Templars were founded, the result is 'Sophia'.

How did the Templars have the cipher and an interest in Sophia? The cipher could have been recovered from Eastern gnostics that never followed Pauline heresies as cemented at Nicea (along with the Tiwas), or given over by Spanish Jews to Templars, if it was not always in one of the Templar families' possession over a millenia.

The conclusion most fitting with Occams razor is that the majority of Templars, hailing from Southern France, were of Jewish noble stock or were gnostics (even if outwardly garden variety christian). In tune most probably with a lot of the high ups in Catholicism who were doubtless secret gnostics while showing a Pauline face to the world.
But did the Templars hook up with Muslims to do their digging - after all it seems they had an arabic translation of the ?aramaic tiwas that belonged in the holy of Solomons holies to help them. Chicken and egg though. Did they find the original then collect an Arab copy later or did they take an Arab copy with them to give them protection on their dig??

An ancient 'swastika' city.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkaim

Not Jewish.

If you do some research into the ancient Shamans of the area, you will find some symbols that are very "jewish" but it's much older than the jews. The pillars, the tree of life, etc.








http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7noXqRsiEY&feature=BFa&list=PLB55D1419931D64A1


Edit to add:
Truth is.....we have NO idea what we are looking at. It's much more ancient than the religions being discussed. The Templars were NOT the first Knights on the planet....that honor goes to the Scythians who were the first to create ALL the trappings of Knighthood....horses, weapons and armor.

Why? Why is the history of the entire planet stuffed through a jewish/christians/biblical filter? The jews are nothing more than the escaped slaves of the Scythians.... the hiburu; robbers and highwaymen. From what I understand there is NO archeological evidence for Jews in the time period being discussed. Now what?

Interesting, well that was an unfortunate juxtaposition re swastika and Jadaism.
I was not actually meaning one belonged to the other, only that some of the attached meaning of the ancient symbol had been integrated amongst other gnostic branches to Kabbalist notions. Right off to read more about this thx for links.

You are very welcome.

Sorry if I get frustrated and come across a tad too strong. Just look over me.

Serendipity
Dont go busting balls so fast on Sonar now.
New members here...

I know

I said to look over me.....bad Mahgwit...bad.

The Scythians were known for worshipping a sword thrust into the ground.

Knights are often shown kneeling in front of their swords, thrust into the ground.

The true meaning of the cross.

The religion of the warriors is weapons.

The Dali Lama said that Christianity killed magic.

It's difficult to enslave beings if they know they are magical.

With enchanted weapons.

...and the Alani....worship of the sword, worship of Ares..... they "fix a naked sword in the ground and reverently worship it as Mars, the presiding deity of those lands over which they range".

The only accurate details here (according to Jewish as well as standard histories) are that Makhir Natronai ben Habibi was indeed the Resh Galuta (Exilarch) of the Jews of Babylon before being forced from his position and sent into exile in 771, that he settled in Narbonne, that he founded an important Talmudic school there, and that many generations of his descendants were secular leaders (nasim, co-presidents of the local Sanhedrin) in the Jewish community there for many years. Narbonne's Jewry were granted many privileges by Pepin the Short in return for their assistance in driving the Saracens out of the city in 759 - some twelve years before Makhir Natronai arrived.

Septimania was never a Jewish state. The only historian to posit that theory was Zuckerman in 1972, and his theory has been roundly been rejected as unsubstantiated and contradicted by documentary evidence.

TCP

Cathars taught that their true Savior Jesus the Christ was pure spirit, never human, and thus was never subjected to crucifixion as he never walked the earth. The crucified Jesus, to them, was an evil, terrestrial, human Jesus whose concubine was the "whore" Mary Magdalene. Hardly the objects of veneration.



719, to be precise; and lost it in 759.



Makhir Natronai was never known as a "count" (Narbonne having been a Christian viscounty and bishopric, albeit with a substantial Jewish ghetto); Thierry of Autun was a Burgundian and only nominally "count" of Toulouse, which at the time was an appointed benefice, not hereditary. Thierry married Aude, daughter of Charles Martel and was the father of Guillaume de Gellone well before Makhir Natronai arrived in Narbonne.



Because the Jews of Babylon themselves recognized him as a Davidic descendant, it was a prerequisite for the job of Resh Galuta.



Sort of.



That was Makhir Natronai himself, according to Jewish sources.



Or burned in 1306 when the Jews were expelled from Narbonne. Or taken with them.



It was the Church that argued for the purported Aaronic priestly lineage of Jesus coming through his mother - something that would have been entirely impossible to Jews.



Gnosticism came to Europe from the Balkans, its trace has never been intangible.



That would blow the theory about Gnostic codices being seized and burnt a thousand years prior. And while Schwester Katrei may have had an understanding of the Gnostic Magdalene it certainly wasn't indicative of the Cathars' take on her.



The original Templars who were established in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher were northerners.



The Council of Nicea dealt with the Arian heresy - not Gnosticism. And if something in the possession of Spanish Jews or southern nobles spurred the Templars on to Jerusalem in search of "whatever", then why were the original Templars northerners?



I'm afraid Occam's Razor would determine otherwise. Occam's Razor is the simplification of facts, not conjectures.



And what do you have to show that backs this up?

TCP

Excalibur, according to one novel of the late Anthony Burgess.

Hello Sonar. Welcome to the group.


It is a misconception that the Gnostics were opposed to "Paulian" Christianity. In fact the Valentinian Gnostic claimed a sort of apostolic authority from Paul, by way of Theudas (according to Clement of Alexandria) and promoted their teachings as the secret wisdom of Paul.

Like Paul, the Gnostics emphasized the concept of Jesus as a perfect, eternal celestial being, as opposed to the Jewish preacher descended from David. The Gnostic gospels often depict apostles receiving the "true wisdom" from the ascended Savior the same way Paul claims to have done. I don't recall Paul being denounced in any surviving Gnostic gospel (compared to the often negative depictions of Peter for instance.) Many gnostic sects denounced human sexuality, which is also something they may have derived from Paul.

Most Gnostics believed the God of the Old Terstament was a malevolent being called the Demiurge and therefore they were hostile to religious Judaism. Most Gnostics would regard David, because of his close relationship with said Demiurge, as one of the Bad Guys and would not consider a Davidic bloodline to be a positive thing.

Father Silence

Is the "Christos" being confused with Jesus?

Paul did not see "Jesus" and "Christ" as separate beings, as some Gnostics did, but his concept of the Christ as a heavenly spiritual Redeemer who has existed since the beginning of time (rather than the traditional Jewish view of what a Messiah is meant to be.) may have been extrapolated by the Gnostics into the idea of a Christ who is wholly separate from the physical world/

FS

I 'll have to go back and read Paul closely, but are you sure of this?

We talk colloquially of "Jesus Christ" when really it should be "Jesus" The "Christ".

There is Jesus the man, then there is Christ the Spiritual being/concept?

"The demiurge is a concept from the Platonic, Neopythagorean, Middle Platonic, and Neoplatonic schools of philosophy for an artisan-like figure responsible for the fashioning and maintenance of the physical universe. The term was subsequently adopted by the Gnostics. Although a fashioner, the demiurge is not necessarily thought of as being the same as the creator figure in the familiar monotheistic sense,[dubious – discuss] because both the demiurge itself plus the material from which the demiurge fashions the universe are considered either uncreated and eternal, or the product of some other being, depending on the system.

The word "demiurge" is an English word from a Latinized form of the Greek δημιουργός, dēmiourgos, literally "public worker", and which was originally a common noun meaning "craftsman" or "artisan", but gradually it came to mean "producer" and eventually "creator". The philosophical usage and the proper noun derive from Plato's Timaeus, written circa 360 BC, in which the demiurge is presented as the creator of the universe. This is accordingly the definition of the demiurge in the Platonic (ca. 310 BC-90 BC) and Middle Platonic (ca. 90 BC-300 AD) philosophical traditions. In the various branches of the Neoplatonic school (third century onwards), the demiurge is the fashioner of the real, perceptible world, and of the Ideas, but (in most neoplatonic systems) is still not itself "the One". In the arch-dualist ideology of the various Gnostic systems, the material universe is evil, while the non-material world is good. Accordingly, the demiurge is malevolent, as linked to the material world.
[edit] Platonism and Neoplatonism This section lacks a single coherent topic. Please help improve this section by rewording sentences or removing irrelevant information. Specific concerns may appear on the talk page. (December 2009)
Plato in his work refers, has the speaker Timaeus, to the Demiurge frequently in the Socratic dialogue Timaeus, circa 360 BC. The main character refers to the Demiurge as the entity who "fashioned and shaped" the material world. Timaeus describes the Demiurge as unreservedly benevolent, and hence desirous of a world as good as possible. The world remains imperfect, however, because the Demiurge created the world out of a chaotic, indeterminate non-being. Plato's work Timaeus is a philosophical reconciliation of Hesiod's cosmology in his Theogony, syncretically reconciling Hesiod to Homer.
Middle PlatonismIn Numenius's Neo-Pythagorean and Middle Platonist cosmogony, the Demiurge is second God as the nous or thought of intelligibles and sensibles.

NeoPlatonism Plotinus and the later Platonists worked to clarify the Demiurge. To Plotinus, the second emanation represents an uncreated second cause (see Pythagoras' Dyad). Plotinus sought to reconcile Aristotle's energeia with Plato's Demiurge, which, as Demiurge and mind (nous), is a critical component in the ontological construct of human consciousness used to explain and clarify substance theory within Platonic realism (also called idealism). Plotinus did this in order to reconcile Aristotelian philosophy with Platonian philosophy. Plotinus metaphorically identified the demiurge (or nous) within the pantheon of the Greek Gods as Zeus (Dyeus).

Henology The first and highest aspect of God is described by Plato as the One, the source, or the Monad. This is the Good above the Demiurge, and manifests through the work of the Demiurge. The Monad emanated the demiurge or Nous (consciousness) from its "indeterminate" vitality due to the monad being so abundant that it overflowed back onto itself, causing self-reflection. This self-reflection of the indeterminate vitality was referred to by Plotinus as the "Demiurge" or creator. The second principle is organization in its reflection of the nonsentient force or dynamis, also called the one or the Monad. The dyad is energeia emanated by the one that is then the work, process or activity called nous, Demiurge, mind, consciousness that organizes the indeterminate vitality into the experience called the material world, universe, cosmos. Plotinus also elucidates the equation of matter with nothing or non-being in his Enneads which more correctly is to express the concept of idealism or that there is not anything or anywhere outside of the "mind" or nous (c.f. pantheism).

Plotinus' form of Platonic idealism is to treat the Demiurge, nous as the contemplative faculty (ergon) within man which orders the force (dynamis) into conscious reality. In this he claimed to reveal Plato's true meaning, a doctrine he learned from Platonic tradition that did not appear outside the academy or in Plato's text. This tradition of creator God as nous (the manifestation of consciousness), can be validated in the works of pre-Plotinus philosophers such as Numenius, as well as a connection between Hebrew and Platonic cosmology (see also Philo).

The Demiurge of Neoplatonism is the Nous (mind of God), and is one of the three ordering principles."

The demiurge is not the God YHWH of the Old Testament.

Hotspur:

(I guess we should explain to the forum that some of this is a continuation of a conversation you and I had about Tacitus in a different thread.)

Jesus Christ means approximately "Jesus the Anointed" in the same way as Simon Zealotes means "Simon the Zealot". In the bible (as elsewhere in the ancient world) it is not unusual for a title or nickname to be adapted into a proper name (Simon Peter, Judas Iscariot, etc.) To a Roman such as Tacitus referring to Jesus as "Christus" would be no different than calling the Emperor Gaius "Caligula". I've never understood what is supposed to be so revealing about the oft-stated canard that "Jesus' last name wasn't really Christ".

In Greek there is no literal equivalent for "Anointed". The New Testament follows the Septuagint in substituting "Christos" which only indicates a vague connection with oil. It can be translated as "covered in oil", "dripping with oil" or even "oily". This is possibly the reason some early believers called themselves Chrestianoi (which derives from a Greek word meaning "good and useful"). This is the word used in the Codex Vaticanus. Hellenistic Gentiles may have preferred to present themselves as good and useful than as followers of an oily Jewish Mosiach.

In Colossians 1:15-17, Paul says, "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. " Some theologians believe this puts Paul at odds with Jesus as presented in the Synoptic Gospels as well as with some other authors of the New Testament, but it is IMHO very similar to the Gnostic view of Jesus as a perfect celestial Savior.

FS

But apparently the Cathar equated the two ie the demiurge and Yahweh.
Excellent info everyone, I was only throwing out the theory presented in Simmans book, that is my main reference with a scattering of speculation. Some interesting disconnects. How do we know the Templars were drawn from the North and how could Simmans who I call a serious earnest researcher get something so fundamental to his theory wrong? But isn't it correct that some gnostics uptook the Arian view? I'd be very interested to know if the books were burnt or removed from the Abbey, and to where.

And Rex Mundi as well, yes.



Because we know who the original Templars were, who their early patron was, who gave them their rule, and where the council was held at which they approved was held.



Why do you think Graham Simmans was an earnest serious researcher? Look at who he's written with.



It wouldn't have made much sense for them to do so.



Which books and what abbey?

TCP

Isn't this the case?

Paul's construction of "Jesus" is not really reflected in the Gospels - it is his own.

Paul's soteriology seems to be a means with which he wants to connect with a non-Jewish audience, for whatever reason.

Non-Jews were accustomed to thinking in terms of sacrificed saviour gods.

It seems to me that Paul's soteriology conveniently matches the pre-existing, longstanding religious predilections of non-Jews.

He took a Jewish man, seemingly important to Jews, for whatever reason whether because he was seen as a new political leader or a radically new religious leader and made him "palatable" to non-Jews.