Arcadia Discussion Zone

Who here has read the 2005 version of this book as opposed to the previous 1996 and 1982 versions?

The 2005 version has 454 pages in the main section whereas the 1996 version has only 438 pages.

The end of the 1996 version the last sentence is:

"To a receptive audience, it might be a kind of Second Coming."

The end of the 2005 version says:

"Any cash rewards accruing from any treasure would remain with those whose information leads to the location of the relevant site."

A shift in emphasis methinks.

In the 1996 version there is one appendix

In the 2005 version there are 4.

I have two copies, one packed away and I'm not sure which version but it's a few years older, I bought the 2005 version because I didn't know where the other one was packed.



I think the above statement obviously has some kind of meaning but as is the case it's not normally what it seems.

I think your'll find they are re-editions with updates and extra information.

Nothing sinister.

And complete with contradictions, which we've already discussed. You're right, nothing sinister in a reiteration of an inaccurate rendering of the facts. Just means you've made a mistake second time around - shame on them.

"Any cash rewards accruing from any treasure would remain with those whose information leads to the location of the relevant site."

Sounds like someone wants part of the cash rewards if a treasure is found

Probably the most interesting part of Holy Blood Holy Grail from my point of view is the introduction to the 1996 edition.

It covers the reaction of the first book published in 1982.

Particularly the interview that the authors gave to Barry Norman on the Omnibus programme with historian Marina Warner and the then Bishop of Birmingham Hugh Montfiore.

Here's one quote from the book:



Montfiore was a complete prat. At one point Barry Norman asked him whether such books are completely dangerous. In other words he fed him a line. "Absolutely" replied the Bishop who had already admitted that he's only read the last two chapters. He declared the Holy Blood Holy Grail as a "Shameless exploitation of sex and sensationalism." Yes we are talking about the book Holy Blood Holy Grail. I must have had that bit ripped out of my copy. Even Marina Warner was embarrassed by this. At this point the editor intervened and concocted a microphone failure or something and the scene had to be redone. Montfiore was given another chance to redeem himself from his sudden attack of foot in mouth disease. When it was redone and asked if the book was dangerous he then said: Not at all and that he was confident that Christianity would prove sufficiently robust to to withstand the challenge. Clearly a loaded interview was being conducted here. Montifiore then cited 79 errors in the book (bearing in mind that he had already admitted that he had only read the last two chapters.) It transpired that the Bishop )or his secretary) had indeed found four genuine errors. One was that they had said that Palestine in the Jesus era was divided into two provinces, the truth is that it was one province and two tetrarchies. They had called Jesus' image as a carpenter in Luke's Gospel when in fact it is from Mark's Gospel. They had put Julius Africanus in the third century rather than the first (this error was blamed on a proof reader) . They had put Ephesus in Greece when it was in fact in Asia Minor. All of these errors have been corrected in the 2005 edition.

It turns out though that the other 75 errors were not errors at all but merely points of faith and a complete misunderstanding on the part of Montfiore due to the fact that he hadn't read the previous chapters. However the press reported that Montfiore had found 79 errors in the book and the pet historian expert Marina Warner wrote a scathing attack (still it out-sold her books). We haven't seen many Hollywood blockbusters starring Tom Hanks made on the strength of her writings. So the book wasn't criticised on ESTABLISHED facts but criticised on ESTABLISHMENT facts.

I learned a great deal from this introduction and oh boy how the same attitudes as Montifiore's prevail on here.

Montifiore converted suddenly from Judaism to Catholicism whilst at Rugby school. He was the great great nephew of Sir Moses Montifiore.



He was related through marriage to the Rothschild family.

Marina Warner was divorced because of her lesbian activities.

There is no doubt that HBHG has caused the world of orthodoxy to scramble. Yes, the authors made a few mistakes and turned down a few wrong roads, but it was published in 1982, prior to Al Gore's creation of the internet in 1983. Love your work in this area Roscoe!

Roscoe wrote:



And...

Another jaundiced view of the world. Expert on everything it seems except what she's supposed to be.

Thank you Roscoe for letting me know about the updates in the other Holy Blood Holy Grail books
Minutia and how I have seen that and understand where Lincoln is coming from

I recently saw that the Vatican was in support of a World Central bank

....that amazes me
it seems it supports the New World Order...that all countries would submit under the economic ruling of one bank

So you believe Warner's 'lesbian activities' hindered her ability to critically examine Holy Blood, Holy Grail?

I would be fascinated to hear what you think her sexual preferences have to do with her competence, or lack thereof - can you elaborate?

Translation: it's all he's got to tag her with.

TCP

TCP wrote:



Ah, and here I was thinking it had something to do with the nefarious nature of lesbian life...



Regards,

Spartacus

It seems the attack of the day is "Shameless exploitation of sex and sensationalism" so saith the Bishop
thus the Church is infallible so it is

Marina Warner is a writer of fiction, criticism and history; her works include novels and short stories as well as studies of art, myths, symbols, and fairytales.

sounds like Dan Brown and her are friends
She sounds wonderful...When a writer is criticized I find that thrilling and it makes for passionate and interesting discussion
http://www.marinawarner.com/
She has many honorary doctorates
the establishment of academia love her

for the record I don't really care who she goes to bed with but I feel for her having to sit next to the Bishop who never read the whole book and support him in the discussion

I got tremendous satisfaction watching the Catholic encyclopedia over the years redo the information of Mary Magdalene
I have been doing this research for a few years not as long as Lincoln by far

I am tremendously grateful to Holy Blood and Holy Grail for bringing out the French Oral tradition which was not told to me as an American Catholic

The French oral tradition can not be denied as it is found in the Stain glass windows of cathedrals in France
who would have guessed how significant this legend would become to the world

Cathedral Saint Etienne
stained glass window

they wanted to deny the legend but it was placed in the Cathedral at Bourges
the stained glass dates to the time of Chartres

"Hugh Montefiasco"

- Henry Lincoln.

I didn't watch this great debate at the time and have only seen a snippet or two from it (Rev Hugh getting on his high horse). So isn't it time some generous soul put the film of it on youtube (along with "The Lost Treasure of Jerusalem" & "The Painter, The Priest & the Devil" but that's another hope) ?

Actually what I've read about the HBHG debate puts me in mind of the televised "Life of Brian" debate with John Cleese and Michael Palin wiping the floor with Malcolm Muggeridge and some C of E dude.

Yep, and if you query ESTABLISHMENT 'facts' you'll get the likes of David Aaronovitch having a go at you.

Off subject but I thought it might be interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoM46jRJnHM

But you once wrote that as a child in CCD, you were taught this "French oral tradition"...

TCP

Not off topic at all; "Life of Brian" is from the same era as HBHG, and would have encountered an angry reaction from the same sort of quarters.

Great film. It seems hard to believe in 2011, but back in c. 1985 I got hauled into the headmaster's office for having screened that film at our school fim society. Consequently, it was the last film I ever got to show there.

Life of Brian was banned in Glasgow. Which speaks volumes about the muppets who were then on Glesca City Cooncil


I remember Channel 4 broadcast a series of documentaries based on Ian Wilson's Jesus the Evidence, which examined the myths surrounding early Christianity and the Nag Hammadi scrolls as well. It caused a bit of controversy at the time, and none other than ex-PM Lord Home urged Christians not to let the material in the prog disturb their faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSLjVCcZ4Jk

ok let's talk about this French Oral Tradition

The Greek Church maintains that the saint retired to Ephesus with the Blessed Virgin and there died, that her relics were transferred to Constantinople in 886 and are there preserved.

Gregory of Tours (De miraculis, I, xxx) supports the statement that she went to Ephesus.

However, according to a French tradition (see SAINT LAZARUS OF BETHANY), Mary, Lazarus, and some companions came to Marseilles and converted the whole of Provence. Magdalen is said to have retired to a hill, La Sainte-Baume, near by, where she gave herself up to a life of penance for thirty years. When the time of her death arrived she was carried by angels to Aix and into the oratory of St. Maximinus, where she received the viaticum; her body was then laid in an oratory constructed by St. Maximinus at Villa Lata, afterwards called St. Maximin. History is silent about these relics till 745, when according to the chronicler Sigebert, they were removed to Vézelay through fear of the Saracens. No record is preserved of their return, but in 1279, when Charles II, King of Naples, erected a convent at La Sainte-Baume for the Dominicans, the shrine was found intact, with an inscription stating why they were hidden. In 1600 the relics were placed in a sarcophagus sent by Clement VIII, the head being placed in a separate vessel. In 1814 the church of La Sainte-Baume, wrecked during the Revolution, was restored, and in 1822 the grotto was consecrated afresh. The head of the saint now lies there, where it has lain so long, and where it has been the centre of so many pilgrimages.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09761a.htm

What is not said in the encyclopedia version is the oral French tradition I got from Mary Magdalene Church in St Louis
which explained a panel behind the altar...Saint Mary Magdalene Lazarus Martha Maximus Cedonius and Martilla exiled on a boat without oars landed at Marseilles. No mention of Sara the Egyptian from another French Oral tradition

Cedonius, who was born blind and cured
Martilla was a servant of Martha

We know from Joinville's memoirs that Saint Louis IX visited the Cave of Mary Magdalene when he returned from the Crusades

Ahh now it comes out Richard has a ish past
You had good taste and your headmaster had no sense of humor