Arcadia Discussion Zone

Well I hear many arguments about the Visigoth treasure theories

but I'm in Noel Corbu's camp

Blanche Castile and her treasure

Noel Corbu
Between 12th and 14 January 1956, the local newspaper, La Dépêche du Midi serialised an interview with Corbu and his brother Charles in which it was claimed that Father Saunière had discovered the treasure of Blanche of Castile the wife of Louis VIII and the regent of the future Saint Louis. Noël Corbu claimed that Abbé Bérenger Saunière had in 1892 discovered whilst renovating his church parchments "inscribed in a mixture of French and Latin, in which at first glance could be discerned passages from the Gospels".[2] It has been noted by critics that Saunière began renovating his church in 1886, not 1892,[3] and that "there was no evidence that these parchments had ever existed".[4]

French Television later made a documentary in 1961 casting Corbu as Father Saunière.[5]

Noël Corbu's account of the discovery of the parchments by Father Saunière was later quoted in the document Un Trésor Mérovingien à Rennes-le-Château (1966) attributed to "Antoine L'Ermite",[6] that for "stylistic reasons suggest that this was written by Pierre Plantard and/or Philippe de Chérisey".[7


Noël Corbu sold the estate in 1964 to Henri Buthion (1924-2002), before being killed in a car accident in 1968.

Noël Corbu's daughter Claire Corbu with her husband Antoine Captier in 1985 published L'Héritage de l’Abbé Saunière that reproduced some of the important archive documents relating to Bérenger Saunière, and in May 1989 opened the Saunière Museum in the village of Rennes-le-Château.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noel_Corbu

So anybody in the Noel Corbu camp
let's start giving some arguments
the "throwing down the gauntlet"

Now I always hear the argument
"Blanche Castile was NEVER at Rennes"

well Noel Corbu didn't say Blanche was at Rennes

he said her "treasure" was

she doesn't have to set a foot on the ground there
Trusted Servant's do the dirty work and are easily gotten rid of



She is the White Queen in the White Tower (rook)

Look at the date Lov. Weird huh. A few days before the 17 of jan 1956.

She married Louis VIII

but I have noticed Blanche doesn't have a Halo on her head
and for all her amazing dedication and wiping out the Cathars

she was never made a Saint

but her son was
She tried to raise the ransom for her son taken hostage
she went to the pope and relatives for help

Saint Louis ransom was mostly provided by the Templars
but one wonders how much she raised and then she was trying to
rule France while Louis IX was away

It must have been troubling to be dedicated and devout and see the failure of the Crusades
and Louis IX captured and her other son killed

then she dies unexpectedly ...

Rain interesting
Do you mean
Marquise d'Hautpoul de Blanchefort Jan 17 1801

Did the White Queen have a troubadour lover?

Mathew Paris feels that Henry VIII may have died prematurely and had a bit of help

The Troubadour lover was Theobald
The first chronicler to report the rumors about a love affair between Theobald and Queen Blanche was Roger of Wendover. Wendover claims that Theobald, "tormented by passion" for the queen, tried to poison King Louis VIII at the siege of Avignon. Matthew Paris adds a story that the French nobles goaded the young King Louis IX to challenge Theobald to a duel to avenge his father's death, but that Blanche put a stop to the duel.

Did Theobald hide her treasure?
He was the one man she could trust
I'm just saying its a theory or possibility

Then there is another man Blanche could trust
Alphonse her son


Alfonso, Count of Poitou
Count of Toulouse (as Alfonso II) from 1247.

The Treaty of Paris stipulated that a brother of King Louis was to marry Joan of Toulouse, daughter of Raymond VII of Toulouse, and so in 1237 Alphonse married her

n 1252, on the death of his mother, Blanche of Castile, he was joint regent with Charles of Anjou until the return of Louis IX.

In the Eighth Crusade he went with Saint Louis and never returned dying on his way back. Joan died 5 days after him leaving no heir

which the irony here is that the lands of the Cathars fell into the hands of the Holy See
and the Holy See wanted that land
Comtat Venaissin
and then the Pope moves from Rome to France
was this the plan for France to be the New Jerusalem
was Phillip going for a Trifecta
Templar's riches, Rome's riches, and ruler of a bigger more powerful France



The enclave's inhabitants did not pay taxes and were not subject to military service, making life in the Comtat considerably more attractive than under the French Crown. It became a haven for French Jews, who received better treatment under papal rule than in the rest of France. The oldest synagogue in France, built in the 14th century, is in Carpentras. Until the French revolution they preserved a distinctive Provençal ritual.


Rabbi Levi ben Gershon, also known as Gersonides, or the Ralbag, (1288-1345) is best known for his work Milhamot HaShem (or just Milchamot), ("Wars of the Lord"). Levi ben Gershom ( לוי בן גרשום) better known as Gersonides or the Ralbag (1288-1344 was a famous Rabbi, philosopher Mathematician Among scholastics, Gersonides was perhaps the most advanced; he placed reason above tradition. The Milhamot HaShem is modelled after the Guide for the Perplexed of Maimonides. This page refers to the 12th century book by Maimonides For the 1977 book by E Moses Maimonides ( March 30 1135 – December 13 1204) also known as the Rambam, was a Rabbi, Physician, and It may be seen as an elaborate criticism from a philosophical point of view (mainly Averroistic) of the syncretism of Aristotelianism and Jewish orthodoxy as presented in that work.

if there was a treasure this man was it
He worked for Pope Clement
Part of his writings consist of commentaries on the portions of Aristotle then known, or rather of commentaries on the commentaries of Averroes. Aristotle (Greek Aristotélēs) (384 BC – 322 BC was a Greek philosopher a student of Plato and teacher of Alexander the Great. Abū 'l-Walīd Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad ibn Rushd (Arabicأبو الوليد محمد بن احمد بن رشد better known just as Ibn Rushd (ابن رشد and in European Some of these are printed in the early Latin editions of Aristotle’s works. Latin ( lingua Latīna, laˈtiːna is an Italic language, historically spoken in Latium and Ancient Rome. His most important treatise, that by which he has a place in the history of philosophy, is entitled Sefer Milhamot Ha-Shem, ("The Wars of the Lord"), and occupied twelve years in composition (1317—1329). A portion of it, containing an elaborate survey of astronomy as known to the Arabs, was translated into Latin in 1342 at the request of Pope Clement VI.

http://www.citizendia.org/Gersonides

his gift (treasure) was Jacob's staff[1], an instrument to measure the angular distance between celestial objects.


There was a distinctive Provençal liturgy, used by the Jews of the Papal enclave of Comtat Venaissin, who remained following the expulsion of the Jews from the rest of France.[3] This liturgy was intermediate in character between the Sephardi and Ashkenazi rites, and was in some ways closer to the Italian rite than to either.

louvian, that was more consistent with what lady sophia would post, but in a more readable form, thank goodness. Now for my query, how did these Jews manage to prosper at the expense of the rest of jews being slowly forced into becoming converso's?

The next step is, how did what ever fortune Blanche had, manage to stay out of ecclesiastic hands, 'cuz that was the name of the game then, yes? How did it manage to end up dumped in RLC area? The Avignon Papacy was a real spend thrift affair. It sure wasn't run on a shoestring budget. Rome's Vatican facilities were still being maintained to prevent them from being plundered.

So all of this Papacy switching locations id just a play to he galleries, IMHO. If Kings of France were intent in snatching the Vatican permanently away from Rome, they'd 1st plunder it, then raze it, neither of which took place.

it gives ya some thing to ponder yes? Since Avignon is not that far from the Med Coast, what was so critical or valuable along that particular stretch of coast to wanna choose Avignon? I can't believe its just for the Chateneuf. If Perpingnan was anything then like it is today, that'd hardly be a reason to leave Rome for.

Was surpressing the Cathars the actual reason?

Jabberwock
We are on the same wavelength for a change

You know the vatican history more than me
But think of the events that led up to the move from Rome
to Avignon
First the importance of it
Avignon, written as Avennio or Avenio in the ancient texts and inscriptions, takes its name from the Avennius clan. Founded by the Gallic tribe of the Cavares or Cavari, it became the centre of an important Phocaean colony from Massilia (present Marseilles).

Phocaea, or Phokaia, (Greek: Φώκαια) (modern-day Foça in Turkey) was an ancient Ionian Greek city on the western coast of Anatolia.Ionia was settled in a window of opportunity between the collapse of the Hittite Empire, with the defeat of Troy,

If the Ionians came from Achaea, they departed during or after the change from East Greek to West Greek there. Mycenaean continued to evolve in a pocket, Arcadia.
Herodotus expresses some impatience at the ethnic views of his countrymen concerning Ionia:
Even "the purest Ionians of all", the Athenians, married girls from Caria. "But since these Ionians set more store by the name than any of the others, let them pass for the pure-bred Ionians."

So Jabberwock
it had a past farther back than Cathars
What better place to build a Palace to the Popes
but there was Joan I of Naples famous Brothel at Avignon
On 8 August 1347 she had opened a large brothel on the property in Avignon which was to be used by the wealthy and nobility of Europe. The brothel remained in activity until she sold the city to the Papal States.

You can see that the Western Schism
France, Aragon, Castile and León, Cyprus, Burgundy, Savoy, Naples, and Scotland recognized the Avignon claimant;

The Eastern
Denmark, England, Flanders, the Holy Roman Empire, Hungary, northern Italy, Ireland, Norway, Poland, and Sweden
Rome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_I_of_Sicily


One wonders did the White Queen of Castile
see the head of the church of the world in France
maybe she and her family believed they had claim more than Rome

No, both dates the only thing that is different is the year.

that's what I thought

On 17th January 1917 Saunière had a serious seizure
Corbu announced it close to Sauniere's death anniversary

Interesting Rain and here is something Interesting too
Gen 28:17]: "This is a place of awe; this is God's house, the gate of heaven, and it shall be called the royal court of God." The first part of the passage is situated in the entrance of the church - the rest of the passage is actually inscribed over the arches on the two doors of the church.

Saunière also funded the construction of another structure dedicated to Mary Magdalene, named after his church, a tower on the side of a nearby mountain which he used as his library, with a promenade linking it to the Villa Bethanie, which was not actually used by the priest. He stated during his trial that it was intended for retired priests. Note that "magdala" also means "tower" in Aramaic and Hebrew, so perhaps there is some sort of pun involved.

The Tower
Castle and the White Queen
http://unmyst3.blogspot.com/2009/05/rennes-le-chateau.html

Saunière said he needed to answer to nobody but the Pontiff and resigned his seat. The villagers of Rennes-le-Château chose to attend Mass at Saunière’s private chapel rather than attend the one provided by the officially installed new priest.


One wonders did they recognize the Pope's authority?

You know when you read about Queen Blanche you hear how she was very devoted
Devoted to France's unification
and make no mistake she wasn't that maternal
Here is a quote
she swore she would 'pawn her children if necessary to get money for her husband,'

Queen Blanche of Castile, proved more than a match for the feudal nobility. She secured her son's coronation at Reims on the 29th of November 1226; and, mainly by the aid of the papal legate, Romano Bonaventura, bishop of Porto (d. 1243), and of Thibaut IV, count of Champagne, was able to thwart the rebellious plans of Pierre Mauclerc, duke of Brittany, and Philippe Hurepel, a natural son of Philip Augustus. Mauclerc's opposition was not finally overcome, however, until 1234. Then in 1236 Thibaut, who had become king of Navarre, turned against the queen, formed an alliance with Brittany, marrying his daughter without royal consent to Jean le Roux, Mauclerc's son, and attempted to make a new feudal league. The final triumph of the regent was shown when the king's army assembled at Vincennes. His summons met with such general and prompt obedience as to awe Thibaut into submission without striking a blow. Thus the reign of Louis IX began with royal prerogatives fully maintained; the kingdom was well under control, and Mauclerc and Thibaut were both obliged to go on crusade. But the influence of the strong-willed queen-mother continued to make itself felt to the close of her life. Louis IX did not lack independence of character, but his confidence in his mother had been amply justified and he always acted in her presence like a child

Thibaut IV was quite a character and the thing that impressed me
is his wisdom to know when to fight and not

and he refused to take part in the Albigensian Crusade
Thibaut's grandmother, Marie, the great-granddaughter of the first troubadour, had established a brilliant court there and patronized several of the most famous poets of the 1170s, among them Chrestien de Troyes, the creator of the romances about Lancelot, Parsifal, and others.

At the death of her husband, Thibaut's mother asked for royal protection, in exchange for which Thibaut was obliged to serve several years at court and later to accompany the successive French kings on their military campaigns. Among these was the Albigensian Crusade, a disastrous civil war that crushed the south of France, the home of the Provençal-speaking troubadours. Thibaut reluctantly accompanied the King in 1226, but he would not participate in the fighting and finally withdrew by night from the royal camp. The King Louis VIII died shortly after

some historians say Thibaut may have had a hand in his demise for he was quite smitten with Eleanor

and why wouldn't Eleanor be smitten with him for her Grandmother taught her well and was a supporter of the Troubadours
Thibaut's sweet lips would sing her praises
Eleanor would be the perfect example of a knight's love for his lady

He wrote la belle sans merci
What is the point of the dream in poem la belle dame sans merci?

It´s about something you really like. . The moment you consume you can´t stop. But finally when it is over or goes away you feel very sad. Keats points out that there is no reason to be sad. This is the real life, you are alive so get on with it!!!

"Poésies du Roi de Navarre", by Lévesque de la Ravallière (Paris, 1742). They consist of sixty-six poems, divided as follows: thirty-nine love sings, twelve jeux-partis, or debating songs, four Crusade songs, and eight serventois. Dante spoke of him in most laudatory terms.

http://www.nndb.com/people/231/000092952/

Lady, The Fates Command

Lady, the fates command, and I must go,---
Leaving the pleasant land so dear to me:
Here my heart suffered many a heavy woe:
But what is left to love, thus leaving thee?
Alas! that cruel land beyond the see!
Why thus dividing many a faithful heart,
Never again from pain and sorrow free,
Never again to meet, when thus they part?

I see not, when thy presence bright I leave,
How wealth, or joy, or peace can be my lot:
Ne'er yet my spirit found such cause to grieve
As now in leaving thee; and if thy thought
Of me in absence should be sorrow-fraught,
Oft will my heart repentant turn to thee,
Dwelling, in fruitless wishes, on this spot,
And all the gracious words here said to me.

O gracious God! to thee I bend my knee,
For thy sake yielding all I love and prize;
And O, how mighty must that influence be,
That steals me thus from all my cherished joys!
Here, ready, then, myself surrendering,
Prepared to serve thee, I submit; and ne'er
To one so faithful could I service bring,
So kind a master, so beloved and dear.

And strong my ties---my grief unspeakable!
Grief, all my choicest treasures to resign;
Yet stronger still the affections that impel
My heart toward Him, the God whose love is mine.
That holy love, how beautiful! how strong!
Even wisdom's favorite sons take refuge there;
'T is the redeeming gem that shines among
Men's darkest thoughts,---for ever bright and fair.

Thibaut de Champagne

And off he went on the Crusades
The Great Knight Troubadour

http://poemhunter.com/poem/lady-the-fates-command/

http://poemhunter.com/poem/pastourelle/

Pastourelle

The other day I went wandering
Without any companion
On my palfrey, thinking
To make a song,
When I heard—I don't know how—
Near a bush
The voice of the most beautiful child
That any man has ever seen;
And she was not a child,
For she was fifteen and a half years old.
I have never seen anyone
With such a noble face.
Laughing, I rode towards her
And made this speech:
'Beautiful one, tell me,
By God, what your name is.'

But she jumped up
With her crook:
'If you come any nearer,
You'll get a blow from this.
Sir, get away from here!
I don't care for a friend such as you,
And I'd rather choose
A more handsome one called Robin!'

When I saw that she was scared
So thoroughly
That she wouldn't look at me
Or give any other positive sign,
Then I began to think
How to make her
Fall in love with me
And change her mind.
I sat down on the ground beside her,
And the more I looked upon her bright face,
The more it fired my heart,
Which doubled my desire.

Then I took upon myself to ask her,
In the most beautiful terms,
To look at me
And give me a different expression.
She started to cry
And said thus:
'I cannot look at you;
I don't even know what you're after.'
I leant towards her, and told her:
'My beautiful one, by God, your mercy.'
She laughed and responded:
'You make folk scared.'

Then I took her up before me
And made straightaway
In the direction of a small, green wood
.
Across the fields I saw
And heard calling out
Two shepherds amongst the wheat;
They came shouting
And raising a great cry.
And I accomplished nothing more than I have said.
I let her down and fled from there;
I didn't care for such folk.

Thibaut de Champagne

What a hoot

Some of his songs and courtly verses are addressed to Blanche of Castile, regent of France.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Thibaut+IV

It seems Blanche of Castile wrote music and she had great love for it
Thibault the troubadour found a Lady worthy of his love

they both composed songs on this CD

http://www.amazon.com/gp/recsradio/radio/B00000AFLW/ref=pd_krex_dp_001_001?ie=UTF8&track=001&disc=001

Some would say that a song is quite a treasure
Musica Cathedralis
Even King Saint Louis IX composed a song
but he was in quite a competition with Thibault

Many have hinted at a possible love for Blanche, and he wrote a poetical homage to her. He became so influential at court, that other barons resented him and started a rebellion in 1229.

The first chronicler to report the rumors about a love affair between Theobald and Queen Blanche was Roger of Wendover. Wendover claims that Theobald, "tormented by passion" for the queen, tried to poison King Louis VIII at the siege of Avignon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theobald_IV_of_Champagne

The church gave her no halo

the Knight and the Lady

The Relics
At the end of 1244, during an illness, Louis took the cross. He had already been much distressed by the plight of John of Brienne, emperor at Constantinople, and bought from him the crown of thorns, parts of the true cross, the holy lance, and the holy sponge. The Sainte Chapelle in Paris still stands as a monument to the value of these relics to the saintly king.

The Crown of Thorns


Baldwin sent 22 (theres that number again)


At the same time, a collection of relics of Christ was kept in the same chapel.
Amongst them we can enumerate: the cross, the nails, the lance, the sponge, the cane,
the crown of thorns, the shroud of the tomb, the sandals, the towel with which He dried
the apostles’ feet, the tunic, the stone from the tomb and the sudarium7. In 1203, Robert
de Clari8 points out not only the presence of the Mandylion and many of the
aforementioned relics, but he also mentions separately two more not belonging to
Christ: the Virgin’s veil and John the Baptist’s head.
The other church concerned with the Shroud, Blachernae, was at the other side
of the town, to the north.
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n56part5.pdf

Moreover, Baldwin II sent a group of 22 relics from Constantinople to his
relative Louis IX of Fra nce between 1239 and 1242:
1. - The crown of thorns as the most valuable
2. - A piece of the cross
3. - Blood of Christ
4. - The nappies of the infant Jesus
5. - Another piece of the cross
6. - Blood from a picture of Christ
7. - The chain
8. - Sacred cloth inserted in a picture (Mandylion)
9. - Stone from the tomb
10. - Milk of the Virgin Mary
11. - The spear
12. - A victorious cross
13. - The purple mantle
14. - The reed
15. - The sponge
16. - A part of the shroud (sudarii) in which Christ's body was wrap ped in
the sepulchre
17. - The towel used to dry the Apostles' feet
18. - Moses’ rod
19. - A part of John the Baptist’s head
20. - St. Blas’ head
21. - St. Clement’s head
22. - St. Simeon’s head.
Except for the milk of the Virgin, the other 21 were mentioned in the Pharos
collection. The king of France was interested in collecting the relics from the Passion,

During the French Revolution, the Sainte-Chapelle suffered badly: the choir stalls and the rood screen were destroyed, the spire torn down and the relics were dispersed.

he Holy Relics Saint-Louis had acquired, were contained in a large, magnificently decorated reliquary kept in the apse, to the faithful on Good Friday. During the French Revolution, they were dispersed. Some were lost, but others are kept in the treasury of Notre-Dame or in the Bibliothèque nationale.

http://www.cosylogis.com/en/paris-france/paris-historical-monuments-france/sainte_chapelle.htm

wonder which ones were lost?

Here is the


Reliquary Crown
Long called the Crown of St. Louis and thought to have been made in Paris, the Crown of Liège, acquired by the Louvre in 1947, is now known to be a Mosan piece. Given by St. Louis, King of France, to the Dominican monastery in Liège, this reliquary crown has been the subject of much controversy, but is now known to be a precious example of the dissemination of the new Paris style in the second half of the twelfth century.

Description
Relics of the passion

In Constantinople, King Louis IX (St. Louis) had bought fragments of relics, notably the Crown of Thorns, for which he built the Sainte Chapelle in Paris. He detached fragments from the relics, had them set in reliquaries, and gave them as gifts. In its small cavities the Crown of Liège, as it is known, houses two kinds of relics: bones of unnamed apostles, confessors, martyrs, and virgins; and relics of the Passion of Christ (fragments of the Holy Lance, the True Cross, and the Crown of Thorns). This piece testifies to the piety of Louis, king and saint, and to his veneration of the relics of the Passion.

The Crown of Liège comprises eight plaques ornamented with fleurons, set off with precious stones and stamped oak leaves, and separated from each other by statuettes of angels. At the center of each plaque is a cavity to receive the relics, each of which is named on the scrolls held by the angels. On account of the finesse of the stamped and chased metalwork, the floral decoration, and the character of the statuettes, the piece was long regarded as Parisian; however, it is now thought to be Mosan,

what is on the Angel Scrolls
Who are the Saints in the crown

surprising

eliquary Crown
Crown of Liège
Circa 1260-70
Dominican monastery, Liège, Belgium
Mosan region
Silver gilt, chased and stamped; precious stones, rock crystal
D. 21 cm
Former Princes of Saxony collection; purchased in 1947.
OA 9445
Decorative Arts
On the angels' scrolls: "le ligno... - de corona Dû - Ioh Bapt. Mar. Magd. - de Martirib. - De virginib - De côfess. - De apostoli. - De lancea Dû."

from what I can read here is John the Baptist and Mary Magdalene, Lance ,apostle (unnamed),virgin,

I submit possible evidence that he had these relics in his possession to put in his crown

http://www.louvre.fr/llv/oeuvres/detail_notice.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673226291&CURRENT_LLV_NOTICE%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673226291&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=9852723696500778&bmLocale=en

Abbot Sugars


Every Abbe should have one of these



Porphyry vase
Suger, abbot of Saint-Denis and adviser to Louis VI and Louis VII, took a particular interest in adding to the treasure held by his abbey. He wrote of finding this antique porphyry vase in a coffer and transforming it into a liturgical chalice by mounting it in the shape of an eagle. Suger commissioned a number of vessels in stone from goldsmiths working for the abbey, in this case most likely goldsmiths from the Ile-de-France region.

Wonder where the coffer was ???
this is a liturgical chalice

Suger, abbot of Saint-Denis (1122–1151), adviser to Louis VI and Louis VII, and later regent of the kingdom, rebuilt the abbey of Saint-Denis. Among the finest pieces commissioned for the new abbey were some remarkable liturgical vessels. Suger took inspiration from the writings of Dionysus the Aeropagite (Pseudo-Dionysus), then thought to be the same historical figure as Saint Denis, and shared his belief that the contemplation of precious artefacts allows the soul to achieve transcendance and come closer to God.

A number of the superb liturgical vessels commissioned by Suger survive: the agate chalice now in the National Gallery of Art in Washington, D.C., the sardonyx ewer, the rock crystal "Eleanor" vase named after Eleanor of Aquitaine, and the eagle chalice, all now in the Louvre. It is not known why Suger chose to give this antique porphyry vase found in a coffer a vermeil setting in the shape of an eagle.

Porphyry vase
Suger's eagle
Vase: Egypt or imperial Rome Mount: Saint-Denis, prior to 1147
Treasury of the abbey of Saint-Denis

http://www.louvre.fr/llv/oeuvres/detail_notice.jsp;jsessionid=K8fTpWC8GSbcrskLQP2qgpzMyb5m5xYWBppzGnPzmnmsXKw6XvvY!1066844195?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673369715&CURRENT_LLV_NOTICE%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673369715&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=9852723696500778&baseIndex=1&bmLocale=en

The cross of Saint-Vincent de Laon bears an inscription showing that it was made for Abbot Hugo (1174-1205) who directed the reconstruction of the abbey church in Laon. It is the oldest extant example of the many reliquary crosses of the True Cross that had fleurons and filigree ornamentation on the arms. The enamel is typical of Mosan art but the statuettes are in the style of 1200.

http://www.louvre.fr/llv/oeuvres/detail_notice.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673226185&CURRENT_LLV_NOTICE%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673226185&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=9852723696500778&baseIndex=12&bmLocale=en

A typical example of the 1200 style

The cross itself, with its double crossbar and ends decorated with fleurons, is completely covered on both sides with filigree and cabochons that are typical of early 13th century goldsmith's work. Two branches sprouting from the foot of the cross hold a statuette of St. John and a statuette of the Virgin Mary, handled in a very gentle manner. The same gentleness is found in the flowing lines of Christ's loincloth. In the natural treatment of the human figure and the supple folds of the drapery, the cross of Saint-Vincent de Laon exemplifies the new stylistic trends that appeared in the closing years of the 12th century.

A double-barred reliquary cross

The double-barred cross is of Eastern origin and was widely used for reliquaries of the True Cross in the late twelfth century. This type of cross developed during the twelfth century especially after the capture of Constantinople in 1204, when relics poured back into the West. The sacking of Constantinople during the fourth crusade enabled the Crusaders to seize the treasures of the Byzantine Empire, especially the relics of the True Cross. The cross of Abbot Hugo is the oldest surviving example of these many reliquary crosses containing fragments of the True Cross; they are double barred crosses, with the ends decorated with fleurons or fleur-de-lis, and were made in the West following a Byzantine pattern during the thirteenth century.


the double -barred cross

the later cross of Lorraine
The Cross of Lorraine is a heraldic cross. The "double cross" consists of a vertical line crossed by two smaller horizontal bars. In the ancient version, both bars were of the same length.

Here is Eleanor's Vase
http://www.louvre.fr/llv/oeuvres/detail_notice.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673226029&CURRENT_LLV_NOTICE%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198673226029&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=9852723696500778&baseIndex=30&bmLocale=en

"Eleanor" crystal vase
The treasury of the abbey of Saint-Denis contained a collection created by Abbot Suger in the 12th century consisting of several hardstone monted vases. Among them was the rock crystal vase known as the "Eleanor" vase. This Sasanian crystal vase is decorated with a filigree gold mount that was probably made in a Saint-Denis workshop. The work reveals the artistry of both the Sasanian crystal carvers of the 6th and 7th centuries and the goldsmiths working for Abbot Suger.

Description
The treasury of the abbey of Saint-Denis

Suger, abbot of Saint-Denis from 1122 to 1151 and adviser to Louis VI ad Louis VII, made Saint Denis "special patron of the king and protector of the kingdom." He began rebuilding his abbey, adding superb stained-glass windows and precious objects. His plan to enrich and embellish the building was based on the Neoplatonic notion that sumptuous and precious objects help people to transcend the material and come closer to the immaterial. The objectsin the treasury are known thanks to the engravings of Félibien, the writings of Blaise de Montesquiou-Fezensac, and the inventory carried out in 1634. Only four of the decorated vases commissioned by Suger survive, one in the National Gallery in Washington, D.C., the other three in the Louvre. The "Eleanor" vase was given to Suger by Louis VII. Louis had been given the vase as a gift by his wife, Eleanor of Aquitaine, who had inherited it from her grandfather, William IX of Aquitaine. Suger decided to make an offering of it to the holy martyrs. These successive donations are mentioned in the inscription on its foot and in a text by Suger entitled De administratione.

it could date from the 6th and 7th century Sasanian

He had quite a treasure

...all very interesting, thank you Lovuian.

Thanks Sheila

Saint Louis IX was not the only one with the True Cross
there was someone earlier
Saint William of Gellone (755 – 28 May (traditional) 812/4) was the second Count of Toulouse from 790 until his replacement in 811. His Occitan name is Guilhem, and he is known in French as Guillaume d'Orange, Guillaume Fierabrace, and the Marquis au court nez.

William was born in northern France in the mid-8th century. He was a cousin of Charlemagne (his mother Aldana was daughter of Charles Martel) and the son of Thierry IV, Count of Autun and Toulouse. As a kinsman and trusted comes he spent his youth in the court of Charlemagne. When William was made Count of Toulouse in 790, Charlemagne placed his young son Louis the Pious, who was to inherit Aquitaine, in his charge.

In 804, he founded the monastery of Gellone (now Saint-Guilhem-le-Désert) near Lodève in the diocese of Maguelonne, which he placed under the general control of Benedict of Aniane, whose monastery was nearby. He retired as a monk there in 806 where he eventually died on the 28 May 812 (or 814). His feast is on that date.

Among his gifts to the abbey he founded was a piece of the True Cross, a present from his cousin Charlemagne, who reportedly wept at his death. Charlemagne had received the relic from the Patriarch of Jerusalem according to the Vita of William. When he died, it was said the bells at Orange rang on their own accord. He mentioned both his family and monastery in his will. [1]. He granted property to Gellone and placed the monastery under the perpetual control of the abbots of Aniane.


Wonder where that went?

but William of Gellone has a connection with Blanche of Castile through her grandmother Eleanor of Acquitaine
William IX Duke of Aquitaine, who lived from 1071 to 1112. He was direct descendant of Guillaume de Gellone. His granddaughter was Eleanore of Aquitaine. Her father was William X of Aquataine, and her mother, Philippa of Toulouse.

Now we all know Queen Eleanor loved the troubadours and courtly love became a movement
One of the major enthusiast was Marie of Champagne

Marie of Champagne, daughter Eleanor, who was a decisive influence in the transmission of Courtly culture across Europe. Marie encouraged the composition of Chretien de Troyes’ Lancelot, that started the association of the Grail with king Arthur.

Merci Merci Marie'
Troubadours found a home in Cathar country singing their songs of love

and we come full circle to Thiebault of Champagne and Blanche of Castile
is Thiebault (Lancelot) and Blanche (Guinevere)

Now in Blanche of Castile's dowry she brought

Towards the end of the 12th century, Issoudun was the stage for fierce battles between the Kingdom of Aquitaine and the Kingdom of France. In 1195, Richard the Lionheart had a Great Tower built, to defend the town on the side facing Bourges. He never lived to see it completed. In 1199, the famous knight was slain at the battle of Bouvines as he faced the army of Philippe II Auguste. For Philippe II Auguste, this victory was decisive for the unification of the Kingdom of France. In 1200, he married his son - the future Louis VIII - to Blanche of Castile, the niece of Richard. Included in her dowry were "Issoudun and its Great Tower".

Today, the Tower, which owes its name both to its white bricks and to Blanche of Castile,
http://www.issoudun.fr/page.php?id=109

p159-160


68. Legend tells us that the first troubadour found the 'Leys d'amor" (the laws of love) in the branches of a sacred oak.
69. ["Cousin of the Oak."--Trans.]

The secret message of Jules Verne, Michael Lamy.

I'm beginning to fall deeply in love with Msr. Lamy, myself. His book is the greatest.

And Cheers Lov, for posting all this. I'm having a great time going through it.

Now another interesting fellow that came from Champagne
Jean de Joinville (c. May 1, 1225 – 24 December 1317) was one of the great chroniclers of medieval France.

Son of Simon de Joinville and Beatrice d'Auxonne, he belonged to a noble family from Champagne. He received an education befitting a young noble at the court of Theobald IV, count of Champagne: reading, writing, and the rudiments of Latin. On the death of his father, he became seneschal of Champagne (and was therefore personally connected to Theobald IV). He was a very pious man and was concerned with the proper administration of the region.

In 1241, he accompanied Theobald to the court of the king of France, Louis IX (the future Saint Louis). In 1244, when Louis organized the Seventh Crusade, Joinville decided to abandon his family to join with the Christian knights just as his father had done 35 years earlier against the Albigensians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_Joinville



Joinvile does not talk about Blanche's and Theobald's possible scandal
but talks about how Theobald comes to the rescue to defend Blanche and Louis
even though he did not like her husband.

there are a couple of interesting comments Joinville makes in his memoirs
The King's stay at Marseilles was marked by a fight between his troops and the people of Avignon, who resented being called " Albigenses, traitors, and heretics." The barons urged Louis to take this opportunity of avenging his father's death; but the King said, "I am not leaving France in order to avenge my father, nor my mother, nor myself, but to avenge my Lord Jesus Christ."

Avignon ended up being the Pope's residence and had a Jewish settlement
it seems Louis IX didn't hold any grudges to Avignon

Louis IX also took part of the True Cross with him on his Crusade
the King gave them, besides the tent-chapel, a bit of the wood of the true Cross, and the Legate gave them a letter, receiving the Tartar nation into the family of the Church.

According to Guillaume de Nangis

Joinville talks about that Louis IX talked about something Comte de Montfort told him
"that several men from among the Albigensian had gone to him to show him and look
at the body of Our Lord which had become flesh and blood in the hands of their priest"

Montfort says to his men they may go if they wish but he will continue to believe in tenets of the "Holy Church"

Source Holy Blood Holy Grail by Blaigent Leigh and Lincoln page 58

this says that Louis IX knew about the Cathars having a body and a ritual by their priests

Thanks Rain
I'm going to have to read Lamy too
to many coincidences