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 Post subject: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2010 2:07 am 
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King Dagobert at the foundation of the Abbey of St. Denis.

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Antique print of the Abbey of St. Denis.

I read that there was a Crista controversy after the Moot at the after-party.

Care to elaborate?

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The Nov. 2010 Moot taken from Andrew Gough`s page, photo by Crow, when do we get to see more?

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Last edited by Renne on 18 Jan 2012 1:06 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Suger
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2010 2:15 am 
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Abbot Suger who was the caretaker of the Crista during the time of Eleanor of Aquitaine.

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The eagle of Abbot Suger in the Louvre, Paris.

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Last edited by Renne on 01 Dec 2010 2:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Alienor
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 1:24 am 
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Alienor d` Aquitaine with John sans Terre.

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Portrait of Alienor d` Aquitaine.

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 Post subject: Richard III
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 1:39 am 
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King Richard the Lionheart, son of Eleanor of Aquitaine and her 2nd husband, King Henry II of England.

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King Richard III from "The Greatest Warriors" web-site.

Eleanor and Richard would have seen the Crista on display in the church, right?

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Last edited by Renne on 01 Dec 2010 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Louis VII
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 2:13 am 
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King Louis VII, first husband of Eleanor of Aquitaine.

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Louis VII who was easily manipulated by Abbot Suger the advisor to his late father Louis VI.

There was a tug-of-war between Eleanor and Suger when it came to Louis VII, Suger usually won.

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King Louis VI of France, father of Louis VII.

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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 3:03 am 
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Love those pictures Renne

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 Post subject: Re: Alienor
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 7:19 pm 
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Renne wrote:
Image

Portrait of Alienor d` Aquitaine.


That, my dear, is Eleanor of Austria, Infanta of Castile, Queen Consort of Portugal (as wife of King Manoel I) and later Queen Consort of France (as second wife of King François I).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_Austria

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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 7:49 pm 
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...and while you're at it ...check out your source for this "controversy" because if it stemmed from the mouth of Thos. D you might want to verify it before starting a new thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 8:04 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
...and while you're at it ...check out your source for this "controversy" because if it stemmed from the mouth of Thos. D you might want to verify it before starting a new thread.


She seems to be working awfully hard to drag Eleanor of Aquitaine into the picture - I don't think you can blame Thomas for that one. Sounds like another creative writing exercise.

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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 8:08 pm 
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...title of thread is?


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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 8:12 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
...title of thread is?


I know, but do you not see the inevitable result? Eleanor of Aquitaine is about to enter the Crista legend - as revealed by the latest unpublished entry in the diary of Don Rodrigo Saenz de Castillon. Let's wager - she stole it from Suger when Louis VII gave her the boot.

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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 8:28 pm 
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i cannae handle this rubbish...no offence but i'd rather wade through the snow and get back to getting wrist deep in lambing complications.


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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 8:35 pm 
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Sheila wrote:
i cannae handle this rubbish...no offence but i'd rather wade through the snow and get back to getting wrist deep in lambing complications.


I'm sure your narrative of same would prove far more riveting than another spin on Crista lore, especially from you-know-who...

TCP


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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 11:11 pm 
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Roger wrote:
I have a particularly pithy reply to that, but I'd only get slimed in green ink.


Oh go ahead, be bold.

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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2010 12:19 am 
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Sheila wrote:
i cannae handle this rubbish...no offence but i'd rather wade through the snow and get back to getting wrist deep in lambing complications.



Snow ??? argh!!! I've had enough of the stuff :evil:


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 Post subject: Eleanor
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2010 1:47 am 
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Thanks TCP, I wondered why she didn`t look like her tomb sculpture. I can always count

on you to correct the internet errors that I copy. These are just pictures about Suger,

that`s all.

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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2010 1:48 am 
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Roger wrote:
Quote:
Oh go ahead, be bold.


I think I'll be bold and exercise the prerogative of extending Mercy.


I'm sure madame appreciates that...

TCP


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 Post subject: Mercy
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2010 1:55 am 
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Eleanora Aquitaine - is that right? The mercy is much appreciated.

From what I hear, the subject of the Crista was avoided at the Moot,

but I did recognize TD, even from the back. People shouldn`t regard this

subject as taboo, it is always of interest. I just read in Patrice`s "Portal" that

her guide told her that Sauniere was involved with the practice of the raising of the dead

and that he was reputed to have been successful - an independent source for that idea.

Could it be Crista related?!!

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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2010 2:26 pm 
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but I did recognize TD, even from the back


oh really :D


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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2010 6:04 pm 
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Abbot Suger wasn’t the only important clergyman that inhabited St Denis Basilica

Abbot Fulrad played a huge part in the rise of the Pipinids.......

His political activities include a mission as co ambassador with the bishop of Wurzburg to pope Zachary in 749, this trip prepared the way both for the depositon of the merovingians and for the elevation of the Pipinids, Carolingians. Pepin was anointed in 751 and a second consecration took place at St Denis in 754 during the visit of Pope Stephen II.

In recognition of Fulrads services, pepin gave him the title capellanus of the royal chapel, having already made him abbot of Saint Denis in 750. As Fulrad was the chief mediator between the king and the Clergy this made him a very important man.

Pope Stephen arrived in Paris in 754 and Pepin installed the Pope and his retinue at St Denis where they stayed for some time (7 months?). As a temporary residence of the pope the abbey must have been held in high esteem. Pope Stephen declared that he had undergone a miraculous recovery from a serious illness while at St Denis and pepin held Fulrad in high esteem for his exemplary work as abbot, ambassador and capellanus (chaplain). The hospitality he extended to the pope and his willingness to accompany him on his return journey to Italy no doubt won him favour. It is certain that St Denis under abbot Fulrad was in political and ecclesiastical favour at the time and this suggests St Denis stood at the centre of political and liturgical reform of great consequence.

Fulrad became a Benedictine and founded monasteries in Lievre, Saint Hippolyte and Salone. He was elected abbot of St Denis in 750 and from then on he was identified with the Carolingian court. He served in office under Pepin, Carloman and Charlemagne. In the year he was elected to Abbot he went to Rome with St Burchard to secure from Pope Zachary the approval of making Pepin king of the Franks, he also acted for Pepin in 756 in turning over the exarchate of Ravenna to the Holy see. This was the early seeds of the papal states and helped in setting up the Frankish kings as supporters of the Pope rather than the byzantine emperor which would transform the future of Europe.

In 750, Pippin III - now the sole Mayor - sent two emissaries to Rome to ask Pope Zacharias: how should a ruler enjoying no power rightly continue to bear the title king? Such a call to Rome illuminates a strategic side to Pippin’s thinking; his choice of emissaries reveals much regarding his influences and motivations. One emissary was an Englishman called Burghard. Englishmen, such as St. Boniface, had been conducting missionary work with the support of Charles Martel, and there is no indication that Pippin ever withdrew this support. English practice and sympathy would have regarded a rex sine potestate, “a king without power”, as an anathema, and the spread of such views might have been sponsored by people such as Boniface. It would certainly have been expedient for Boniface to support any Carolingian move in that direction; he needed their assistance for his missionary work. The other emissary was a Frank named Fulrad, Abbot of the Merovingian monastery of St. Denis. Both Pippin III and Carloman I had been educated at St Denis, and Fulrad was one of Pippin’s closest advisers. The choice of Fulrad reflects Pippin’s need to gain the support of the Merovingian church for his intended action. The Merovingians themselves had earned the gratitude of the Catholic church in the time of Clovis I, and both church and crown enjoyed a special relationship. The church had on the whole benefited from Merovingian patronage, and, being a conservative institution, would not easily have abandoned their old benefactors. Without the approval of the church, no amount of secular support would have won Pippin the throne. The visible support of the St. Denis community, represented by Fulrad, would have been decisive in swaying the loyalties of the church from the Merovingians to the Carolingians.

Pippin’s request would have also been in keeping with Papal and scriptural tradition: kings should be seen to rule, as Old Testament kings had ruled. In addition, Pippin’s envoy had caught the Pope at a critical time. The Lombards were threatening Rome from the north, and the Papacy had need of a protector. The Franks, under the Carolingians, were the most secure and powerful Christian state at the time; it was in the interests of Pope Zacharias, and his successor Stephen II, that the Carolingians be strengthened in their power by being given the kingship. The Merovingians could no longer provide what was needed for the church. Thus, according to the Continuator of the Chronicle of Fredegar, Papal sanction was given and Pippin, with the consent of all the Franks, was “consecrated by the bishops and received the homage of the great men”. Childeric III and his son were tonsured and sent off to a monastery. Wallace-Hadrill argues that the coronation ritual possibly compensated not so much for the lack of royal blood, but for the loss of face for breaking an oath of fidelity. It eased the consciences of both the Carolingians and the Frankish people. With this new rite, they could uphold the institution of kingship without the “blood of Meroveus”. Therefore, the Merovingian dynasty could now be replaced.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A251542

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lorsch1.html
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulrad


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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2010 9:14 pm 
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Pippin’s request would have also been in keeping with Papal and scriptural tradition: kings should be seen to rule, as Old Testament kings had ruled. In addition, Pippin’s envoy had caught the Pope at a critical time. The Lombards were threatening Rome from the north, and the Papacy had need of a protector. The Franks, under the Carolingians, were the most secure and powerful Christian state at the time; it was in the interests of Pope Zacharias, and his successor Stephen II, that the Carolingians be strengthened in their power by being given the kingship. The Merovingians could no longer provide what was needed for the church. Thus, according to the Continuator of the Chronicle of Fredegar, Papal sanction was given and Pippin, with the consent of all the Franks, was “consecrated by the bishops and received the homage of the great men”. Childeric III and his son were tonsured and sent off to a monastery. Wallace-Hadrill argues that the coronation ritual possibly compensated not so much for the lack of royal blood, but for the loss of face for breaking an oath of fidelity. It eased the consciences of both the Carolingians and the Frankish people. With this new rite, they could uphold the institution of kingship without the “blood of Meroveus”. Therefore, the Merovingian dynasty could now be replaced.http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A251542


You've been watching too much BBC. :lol: Just Jokes. Interesting concept about the Kings although I still have problems withe "blood of Meroveus" part, I still don't understand the need for it and what it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2010 3:57 pm 
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Well there was enough need that Charlemagne married a Merovingian princess since he didn't his children would

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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2010 5:41 pm 
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lovuian wrote:
Well there was enough need that Charlemagne married a Merovingian princess since he didn't his children would


Which "Merovingian princess" might that have been, Lov? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Crista Controversy?
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2010 10:19 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Which "Merovingian princess" might that have been, Lov?

Probably this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip_0CFKTO9E

:lol: :lol:
That girl needs a serious haircut :shock:
Good old cutesy Disney films, ( if I had kids, I think they might enjoy this though ).
Regards
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 Post subject: Fulrad
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2010 12:39 am 
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Statue of St. Fulrad. Was the Crista in St. Denis church in Abbot Fulrad`s day?

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Last edited by Renne on 04 Dec 2010 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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