Arcadia Discussion Zone

I'm going to try and get back to the more mundane ideas related to RLC.

I have just read about the following, apparently from De Sede:

1) Abbe Bigou sent a letter to the Diocese asking that he take, for safekeeping, a slab that had been lying at Pontils.
2) In November 1789 this stone was transported to RLC.
3) There is a document that attests to this, showing the transfer, by William Tiffou, of the slab near Serres to RLC.
4) Bigou then placed the slab horizontally over the tomb of the Marquise de Blanchefort.
5) Therefore, it is suggested, the slab came from the tomb of Pontils.

Questions:

1) Is this accurate? Has it been substantiated? Why would Bigou be interested in a 'slab' at Pontils? And what is meant by 'slab'?
2) Has anyone seen this document showing the transfer? Is this part of de Sede own research, or is it his own independant research?
3) Who is William Tiffou? I have never heard of this name.
4) The mention of the Pontils tomb in this manner has no link to Poussin. May this be why Pontils is important?
5) Was it the 'et in arcadia..' stone, and why was that lying at Pontils?
6) I have read some reports of the reconstruction by Cros. He says there were Greek letters on the stone .....but that his notes have gone missing ....

Hi!

"at Pontils" doesn´t mean the place where the pontils sarcophagus was located. In former times (Napoleon) there was not very far from this place a grave yard. I checked this place but today there is NO evidence of a grave yard or tomb. But on the map I have seen this area was named "CIMENTERE". So obviousely it was the Cementry of pontils-and there they got the slab...

Hi Pat,

Thanks for that.

To be honest, i think its a bit weird having a cemetery there, in that area. I mean, who did they think would be buried there? Its not exactly a big place .....

I have been reading about the 'cemetery' that was supposed to be there though at Les Pontils...

Also apparently the land around there used to belong to the Aniorts in the 12th and 13th centuries .....

I quote: "Abbe Mazières, historian of the Aude, said he received information from the Countess of Aniort which was quite interesting: family records dating to the tenth century could be read that "the pierre levée des Pontils' Regarde attics aux et aux caves de roi ":

I think i read about this in Franck Marie. I'll check it ....

I dont know who the Countess of Aniort was, that Mazieres spoke to. I read an article in SESA too, which talks about the land owned by the Aniorts .....

Still dont know who William Tiffou is supposed to be. An invented character?

but it seems indiactive of that area. Tiny villages have well maintained cemeteries with very extravagent tombs. I saw that all the time there

Hi Davinho,

But Les Pontils??

You went there right?

How many houses did you see there, in that hamlet?

yes I walked from Arques to Sougraigne after trekking over the mountain to the chateau...never again I had severe chaffing of the thighs
There isn't much there (Pontils) I agree but I've seen one horse villages with quite big, well maintained cemeteries. The fact that a tomb was placed at Pontils in a place that I thought was quite difficult to reach would mean that I wouldn't neccesarilly be surprised if there had been more there at one time.

Check this link:

http://lemercuredegaillon.free.fr/gaillon27/les_pontils

Again the same old thing about the "stèle" and the "dalle"..

Rather strange claim for the Abbé Mazières to make, considering that there hasn't been a "Countess of Aniort" since before 1756. The "Aniort" family (i.e. Rocquefeuil) sold the chateau and seigneurie of Aniort to the Fonds family of Limoux, who began styling themselves "Fondi de Niort", assuming the airs of nobility but not the actual title that had been attached to the land, which was non-transferrable. If Mazières had been speaking to a member of the Fondi de Niort family, I'm not sure why their 10th century family records (if they even have any) would be of any interest to him.

Wasn't it Mazières and Sède who in the 1970s embellished the story of an "Austrian subject" visiting Saunière, turning the unnamed "subject of Franz Josef" into the missing Archduke Johann Salvator himself?

TCP

Tim,

I think this Italian researcher has got something wrong.

After all, the translation 'Regarde attics aux et aux caves de roi' seems to be someones interpretation of what is written on the Et in arcadia stone .... (as opposed to something written in papers of the Aniorts).

However, the Peyro-Dreito stone, just up the hill from Pontils, seems to be what the 'Countess of Aniort' was referring to, and what you could see standing by this stone (family records dating to the tenth century said that "the pierre levée des Pontils Regarde attics aux et aux caves de roi "):

Apparently Monsieur CROS, after talking with the villagers at RLC stll living there ?3 years after the death of Sauniere, was able to reconstruct the so called 'et in arcadia.. ' stone. He proposed the following 'translation' - 'At Rennes, (a depot) of the King, in the caves (where is hidden) the citadelle of the Templiers'.

Another hypothesis, according to Abbe Antoine BEAUX, cure of Campagne -sur- Aude and friend of Sauniere, was 'At Rennes, in the Chapel, of the citadelle, foundation? of the Priory, for the king' (From Franck Marie). These assertions also come from the private archives of Abbe MAZIERES.

Ahh, as i write, i have just seen the reference about the Peyro-Dreito stone (or Pontils stone, if you will):

I quote
'M. l'abbe MAZIERES nous affirma l'existence d'un document qui lui fut produit ou il etait mentionne: "La pierre levee des Pontils regarde aux greniers et aux caves du Roi'
The source for this reference is given by Franck MARIE as:

'Archives de la Maison D'a. ANIORT, A NIORT-de-SAULT'.

This is a diagram illustrating the point:

This one (Cros) makes the most sense to me for the "king's depot" reference; I'm just not sure what 10th century archives of the Aniort family have to do with it, the reference is too obscure and I don't think the lady's identity is accurate. There may be some double-entendre here, or coded references, must think on it a bit.

TCP

Another charming story. No proof whatsoever.


No document was found although some chercheurs searched for it !
I think it should be considered a fake and possibly was constructed to lay an elder connection to Les Pontils.

but I've seen one horse villages with quite big, well maintained cemeteries

Well, my dear, i think this is a recipe for a disturbing horror film.

Hardly any villagers, but big cemeteries - where are the bodies coming from?
Must be that Sauniere and his rooting out of bodies : )

Im just kidding.

BTW- another thing i have seen written (how the so called Poussin tomb 'model' is common in the area. I disagree. How many other Poussin tombs are there in the area???? Hmmmm. Photos please anyone : ) ).

Yeah, but real or not, somebody saw fit to include it in the narrative and we should endeavor to figure out the reason.

TCP

Hi Sandy, I have just been through my photo archives, and I can't find another tomb that is the same type. There are lots that are more grandiose, taller with ornate corners and probably for a family, and also the usual flat typical grave with a headstone / cross. I will keep looking but it wasn't something I was specifically after photographing. Still none spring to mind that have the same large rectangular stone shape with a slab on top to cover.
Regards
Nic

I've been checking the French forums, to see if they have more interesting discussions about RLC.

I found this from a poster called 'Patrician' (or is it Daffos, not quite sure), who wrote:

"My poor Charles, just a few years, but I was already there in 1972 and I could see the face of Gerard de Sède, de Cherisey Pellet and company when John discovered the tomb of Pontils, accurate reproduction of the tomb of Poussin. They were all staring at the sky had fallen on their head. They supposedly were the inventors of all but one of the major indices supposedly invented by them existed in real life on the ground! You explain how this ... I think you can not imagine the shock that they did ... " (http://archives.renneslechateau-fr.com/ ... ac41e76f9f)

Admittedly this is via a babelfish translation, so i may have lost the sense of this. But 'patrician' seems to be asserting that cherisey et al were very shocked when they realised a tomb replicating Poussin's was found.

I think the suggestion is that Cherisey et al did NOT invent the connection.

Pity i dont know who 'John' is .....or Pellet. Or Patrician

All this means is that they discovered a tomb and noted the similarity to a painting. We still don't know for certain who "discovered" (or "invented") the connection to RLC and the legend of Bérenger Saunière. And, remember, we're dealing with a group of people who endeavored to weave several "mysteries" into a single narrative.

TCP

I see that poster GaelGJ said:

'Si je peux me permettre de donner un conseil aux nouveaux chercheurs, c'est de prendre « de Cherisey, Plantard, le Prieuré de Sion et ses acolytes » et jeter tous à la poubelle'.

which means: If I may give advice to new researchers, it is taking "of Cherisey Plantard, the Priory of Sion and his cronies" and throw all the garbage. At this point, your mind will be free for good research without pollution of misinformation. One of these people have all just found a folder in the personal affairs of one of the priests concerned at the time.
http://archives.renneslechateau-fr.com/ ... ac41e76f9f

I think that this is good advice.

Or, that is the mood i am currently in.

Oh no, let me check .. i was reading a bit higher up on the page about some girl who had a dream, and Sauniere showed her everything?

Wasnt her was it?

Edited to add:
Oh no, it was Florence....Is this all really important, as the treasure is still not found? I had a dream last night about Saunière, you should think about this, he pointed to a place where there is no riddle, no tables to decode, a neutral and simple without a trace apparent ambiguity, but he loved him and Mary Dénarnaud, I did not think it's true, what is the use of any complicated enough so that a cache in a very simple to lock up messages? Florence

I just had a thought. I am not at all sure about the 'nettiquette' of reposting messages ..... perhaps thsi is not acceptable. I better stop.

I'm not sure about translations, though... particularly when wonky.

Yeh, i dont want to unnecessarily offend anyone.

I think the French forums, however, are more interesting.

Edited to add:

Well at this time.
And i have only read a small amount.