Arcadia Discussion Zone

Forums dedicated to history's mysteries, Rennes-le-Château and beyond…

Read the Arcadia Forum House Rules

It is currently 22 May 2013 6:46 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 65 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2010 8:47 pm 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 31 May 2008 12:53 am
Posts: 8916
Location: Los Angeles
Roger wrote:
C'mon, Egi, we have all been informed that the Cathar treasure was the Grail, which itself was a feminine hygiene device having belonged to MM, and that this was hidden in Nova Scotia by the Templars.... get with the programme!


That must explain why Magheads are always so confidant...

TCP


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2010 3:07 am 
Offline
High King
User avatar

Joined: 22 Jun 2009 10:28 pm
Posts: 4213
Location: NA
HollyDolly wrote:
rain wrote:
bergeredearcadie wrote:
Anyone have any views on this?

Relevant?

Provenance?

Important?


It's interesting because of the pic that he becomes preoccupied with.

Codebreakers always are interest to me, because they perform a function I myself struggle with. Sometimes their focus makes it too narrow but in this case there maybe more.

By being able to recognise the symbology of the pictures he maybe showing his ability to understand the finer points.

The following quote is unusual.

http://www.perillos.com/pumaz.html

Quote:
A treasure map

Then, using Boudet’s book and establishing a “Boudet meridian”, he comes to the conclusion that there are three potential locations for this treasure. He adds: “Here we are therefore confronted with a double (or triple) cache, spiritual and material. In the Razès, one can only think about the Cathar treasure, to whom such a double nature has often been attributed.” He then goes on to explain how he has gone to these sites to verify his remarks. He then quickly moves on to state that apart from those on-site inspections, he had certain encounters with people who lived there: the names are well-known: Déodat Roché, Franck Marie, Lucienne Julien, Jean Robin and Pierre Jarnac.


This is also strange because this a double inversion designed to point something out about the spear. I believe it was pointed out previously that the spear should be substituted.
It should be noted that picture ties the spear to a myth. How does he know how to do that at that time?


Quote:
The players

Next, we find several other players that are now well-known to be part of the “mystery”: Vincent de Paul, the Lazarists, etc. Specifically, he lists Bigou as a key player, a man who left his imprint and knowledge behind, before leaving and dying n Spain. And he argues that this knowledge is also about other locations, though these are not part of the mainstream interest in the enigma. He lists Bézu as one such site, stating: “There is a small church there which today is abandoned. In this building, a statue of John the Baptist, with his right arm broken and stuck back on the wrong way around (after 1959) appears to indicate a point of the vault. What can John the Baptist show us with his cut and turned over wrist?” Let us note that since, the church of Bézu has been partially restored. We also find certain notes to other seldom mentioned sites, in regards to Notre Dame de la Salette and Isère.
Though discussions about St Sulpice are now commonplace (and definitely so after The Da Vinci Code), at the time of writing, the observations Pumaz made were less if not ill-known. “In the church of Saint Sulpice in Paris: the stations of the cross; the reversed N in two signatures of the painter Signol; in the crucifixion painted by this artist, the plaque at the top of the Cross of the Saviour where the three lines are written from right to left, the Greek and the Latin thus the other way around.”
Speaking of inversions: Signol becomes Longis, which is the name of the soldier who allegedly pierced the side of Christ. Such displays of ingenuity underline his professional acquaintance with ciphers.


He makes another comment (see below) designed to point to maybe (Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradiso) being the 3 best represented other worlds of religion. :wink:
Again, how does he know how to do that at that time?

Quote:
For Pumaz, Bigou is not a small-time priest in a godforsaken village. In fact, elsewhere, in the researchers’ magazine, he wrote that “If I come across Bigou in the other world, I will be happy to talk to him a bit…”


Here we see something altogether that has puzzled me. The two books he is referring to, the mythical - (1. The rays of gold 2. The traces of fire) or (The Golden Ray and The Line of Sight)

Quote:
In 1985, there was even a rumour that there was a role in this enigma for a priest by the name of Cauneille, as well as two books, whose existence remained unproven – or non-provable. Cagger, the man he is, makes certain enquiries and discovers that there is indeed such a person, whose name is largely written like Cauneille, but not precisely. Furthermore, no-one has devoted any attention to his man, simply, it seems, because he is a Catalan priest and – of course – most tenors of the debate exclusively focus on the Aude region, confusing the mystery of Saunière with that of his vilage. As to the two books, these are the two notebooks, which are located in Spain. He adds that he has been able to recover this information by making use of his “position”.
Let us finally add that in his unpublished material, there was also much more information about St Sulpice and the church of Bézu.


There is more but what to make of it except to say intriguing - I'm not sure because I do not, nor have I read a copy of the report.

Maybe Sandy if you put a copy of the translated report up.... :D Please. If not, I understand the article is interesting in and of itself.


I wonder if the two notebooks could be about the Cathars and their activity in Catalonia.In the book, The Yellow Cross, it has a chapter about the Cathars,Belibaste and the others being in Catalonia in the northern part.They were able to move back and forth between the two areas. Could the Cathar treasure be hidden somewhere in the region?


I think it's really complicated. I wouldn't worry too much about the notebooks (if they even exist) are probably not for public consumption.

Did the Cathars have a treasure. I have my theories but I do think they the politics behind all this is a terribly messy affair. It makes finding the truth a tad hard.
And frankly the Cathars were wiped out centuries ago so the Cathars wouldn't be a starting point for me.

You do have to address these political problems but I tend to rely on the resident expert TCP for that.

_________________
************


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2010 5:23 am 
Offline
Emperor
User avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2006 3:44 pm
Posts: 6954
Cathars didn't have any treasure, anything material was an abomination to them. Even their own lives was something that had to be endured. To them death was a release, even their own life wasn't precious.

By the way Robert the Bruce left instructions for his heart to be taken on the crusades. It only made it as far as Spain.

If there's any treasure at all then it is described in Kreuzzug gegen den Gral by Otto Rahn (1933)

_________________
Image
CROMLECK DE RENNES is here.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2010 7:34 am 
Offline
High King
User avatar

Joined: 22 Jun 2009 10:28 pm
Posts: 4213
Location: NA
roscoe wrote:
Cathars didn't have any treasure, anything material was an abomination to them. Even their own lives was something that had to be endured. To them death was a release, even their own life wasn't precious.

By the way Robert the Bruce left instructions for his heart to be taken on the crusades. It only made it as far as Spain.

If there's any treasure at all then it is described in Kreuzzug gegen den Gral by Otto Rahn (1933)



Then they would of felt the Catholic church gave a great gift by releasing them from their earthly bodies. Ironic isn't it.

Quote:
If there's any treasure at all then it is described in Kreuzzug gegen den Gral by Otto Rahn (1933)


Yes, it's interesting, in english Crusade against the grail. The only problem is the book suggests the treasure is no longer there.

_________________
************


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2010 1:20 pm 
Offline
Grand Master

Joined: 23 Jun 2009 6:09 am
Posts: 256
Location: Scotland
Rain I never cease to be amazed by your erudition. You are I think a true polymath.

_________________
My physical strength is not enough to fulfil my spititual desire


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2010 3:33 pm 
Offline
Grand Master

Joined: 04 May 2009 7:03 am
Posts: 897
Location: Australia
And her grammar is sort of polymathmatic too! :o

Mind you, this country is full of postmodernists.

But I'm confident that they will eventually update themselves.

Regards to all

Wombat.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2010 3:20 am 
Offline
High King
User avatar

Joined: 22 Jun 2009 10:28 pm
Posts: 4213
Location: NA
I just found this in a folder. I have no idea when or where I got it. I thought it might have been notes but it's just a pdf with four pages. There is no english and no introduction, so it's a bit of mystery but I thought I would post it here anyway. The original file is called Pumazfile.

Image

Image

Image

Image

found this too and it's so cute

Image

_________________
************


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2010 6:40 am 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 31 May 2008 12:53 am
Posts: 8916
Location: Los Angeles
Apparently these folks are having issues with the DNA test results showing that the heart of Louis XVII installed at Saint-Denis is authentic.

Naundorffistes - they still haven't learned to cope.

TCP


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2010 2:13 pm 
Offline
High King
User avatar

Joined: 22 Jun 2009 10:28 pm
Posts: 4213
Location: NA
Roger wrote:
Rain, you got the link from my earlier post. Cagger was an active member of this group.
Tim, they aren't Naundorffistes.


Thanks Roger :- It would have been months ago because I haven't touched that folder for months.

I'm definitely relieved because I couldn't recall at all where I got it.

_________________
************


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2010 3:59 pm 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 31 May 2008 12:53 am
Posts: 8916
Location: Los Angeles
Roger wrote:
Rain, you got the link from my earlier post. Cagger was an active member of this group.
Tim, they aren't Naundorffistes.


Jacques Hamann isn't a Naundorffiste? The "Cercles d'études historiques sur la question Louis XVII" hasn't been promoting the story of Karl-Wilhelm Naundorff as Louis XVII since its inception? That letter posted above isn't raising a stink about the DNA results and asserting that the heart currently enshrined at Saint-Denis isn't the same one peserved by Dr. Pellatan?

Is the Jacques Hamann mentioned in the article below not the same Jacques Hamman who signed the above meeting minutes for a Naundorffiste organization?

Louis XVII: les «survivantistes» s'accrochent au mythe. ADN ou pas, ils veulent encore croire à l'évasion du dauphin.

Les «survivantistes» ne baissent pas les bras. Déstabilisés oh, pas longtemps, quelques minutes par le résultat de l'expertise ADN confirmant que «l'enfant mort au Temple» le 8 juin 1795 était bien Louis XVII, fils de Marie-Antoinette, ils n'ont pas tardé à contre-attaquer, histoire d'entretenir le mythe, celui du dauphin évadé de sa prison. Ils s'accrochent à la conclusion des experts: «Les résultats soutiennent très fortement la version selon laquelle Louis XVII est mort au Temple.» C'est donc qu'il subsiste un doute" Prenons Jacques Hamann, le plus mesuré des survivantistes. Président du Cercle d'études historiques sur la question Louis XVII, auteur de Louis XVII et les 101 dauphins, il avoue son scepticisme: «Sincèrement, je n'ai pas trouvé la vérité dans l'ADN.» En 1992, il avait tenté une expertise sur le coeur présumé de Louis XVII, mais s'était adressé à la mauvaise porte (Jacques Lang, ministre de la Culture, dont les services avaient répondu que sa demande était sans intérêt, au motif que «rien ne permet d'affirmer que le coeur est celui de Louis XVII»), au lieu de s'adresser au duc de Beauffremont, propriétaire du coeur et chef de file des légitimistes.

«Trop rouges». Depuis, Jacques Hamann s'est focalisé sur une touffe de cheveux, prélevée en même temps que le coeur sur le cadavre. Confiés au commissaire du Temple, le sieur Damont, puis à une dame de compagnie de Marie-Antoinette, ils sont depuis aux mains de la famille Briançon, de génération en génération. «J'ai retrouvé les cheveux!» proclame Jacques Hamann. D'où une nouvelle expertise ADN, qu'il va confier à un laboratoire nantais, dont les résultats devraient être connus en septembre. Avec une petite arrière-pensée: prouver que ce n'est pas la tonsure de Louis XVII et, comme «les cheveux ont autant de valeur que le coeur», démontrer que le dauphin n'est pas mort au Temple. Selon l'historien André Castelot, le grand chambellan de Louis XVIII aurait récusé les cheveux au motif qu'ils étaient «trop rouges». Castelot en avait tiré la conclusion que Louis XVII s'était évadé, et avait écrit un livre au titre définitif, l'Enigme résolue, avant de faire amende honorable.

Mais le vrai dada de Jacques Hamann, c'est le «crâne de Sainte-Marguerite». Selon une «légende constante», le corps de l'enfant, jeté dans une fosse commune, aurait été récupéré par des fossoyeurs qui l'auraient enterré dans un cercueil au cimetière Sainte-Marguerite à Paris. En 1848, à la faveur de travaux de réfection, le paquet-cadeau a été exhumé: un fatras d'ossements d'âges différents, dont toutefois un crâne trépané au niveau des orbites, comme l'auraient fait les médecins légistes du petit Louis XVII. «Pour moi, c'est l'enfant du Temple en tant que crâne», soutient Jacques Hamann. Comme les étudiants de l'école de médecine voisine avaient l'habitude d'y jeter des cadavres après trépanation, la piste du cimetière Sainte-Marguerite n'a jamais été prise au sérieux. C'est ne rien comprendre au survivantisme: loin de l'idée de prouver l'authenticité des saintes reliques, il s'agit de démontrer qu'elles sont fausses. Donc, que le petit Capet s'est évadé.

Frère aîné. Plus remontés, les naundorffistes crient à «l'imposture». Descendants de Wilhelm Naundorff, le moins folklorique des vrai-faux dauphins qui ont pullulé au XIXe siècle, ils sont regroupés au sein de l'Institut Louis XVII, chargé d'entretenir le droit obtenu par leur aïeul auprès du roi des Pays-Bas: porter le nom de Bourbon. Ils ne sont pas loin de penser que le coeur soumis à expertise ne serait pas celui de Louis-Charles, mais de son frère aîné Louis-Joseph, le premier dauphin, mort en 1789. D'après eux, son coeur aurait disparu de la basilique Saint-Denis. Et comme l'ADN ne prouve qu'une filiation générale à la famille des Habsbourg" «C'est une question, pas une accusation», rectifie Mme du Vielbourg, secrétaire de l'institut. De fait, rien ne prouve que le coeur du premier dauphin ait jamais été entreposé à Saint-Denis, on a d'ailleurs perdu sa trace depuis un lointain pillage. Philippe Delorme, l'historien qui a contribué à l'expertise ADN pour les besoins d'un nouveau livre (1), n'entend pas polémiquer plus longtemps avec les survivantistes. «Je ne vais pas passer ma vie à soigner les fantasmes d'une poignée de mystico-dingos.»


Come now, Roger, whose leg are you pulling this time..? :lol:

TCP


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2010 6:20 pm 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 31 May 2008 12:53 am
Posts: 8916
Location: Los Angeles
Roger wrote:
"Laure de la Chapelle rappelle [...] qu'elle n'est pas Naundorffiste"

There ARE people who belong to the "a pox on both their houses" faction, you know?
Particularly among people who consider the House of Orleans to be a regicide anathema.


Laure de la Chapelle takes her approach to the matter from a position of historical curiosity, rather than dynastic partisanship. La Forest-Divonne and his wife are, of course, ardent legitimists, ergo we can safely assume that their participation derives from curiosity as well, as they are quite partisan. I don't think this qualifies necessarily as a pox on anyone's house.

TCP


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2010 9:25 am 
Offline
High King

Joined: 07 Nov 2006 11:57 pm
Posts: 3856
It all began in 1970, in a magazine called “L’intermédiaire des Chercheurs et des Curieux". A second intervention by our author occurred in issue 246 in June 1971, column 792.

Dont know what happened, translation probably, but i can confirm that Pumaz did write in the September issue of this magazine (1971).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2010 3:27 pm 
Offline
High King

Joined: 07 Nov 2006 11:57 pm
Posts: 3856
Douzet wrote this:

'It all began in 1970, in a magazine called “L’intermédiaire des Chercheurs et des Curieux". A second intervention by our author occurred in issue 246 in June 1971, column 792. It is a short intervention, titled “Abbé Béranger Saunière (1970)”. It speaks of a veritable treasure of Rennes-le-Château, which apparently was not discovered by Saunière. It goes on to explain that it was abbé Bigou, the priest of the village from 1774 to 1791, who had with “an extraordinary ingenuity” woven his signature into the gravestone of the Lady of Hautpoul. He used, it was argued, a “very apparent key” which allowed the reconstruction of a simple cipher. The announcement was signed “PUMAZ”, followed by a short description of the location where the deposit was presumably in situ, which, of course, was nowhere near the two Rennes.
Another text, slightly longer, appears to be a reply to certain people, whose comments we do not have. This time, the method of the cipher is clearly and precisely explained, stating it is found in the Roman letters LIXLIXL. This explanation is very rigid and shows that the author is very familiar with this type of decodation; he is definitely not an amateur".
http://www.perillos.com/pumaz.html

The bit i have bold typed, however, is incorrect.
Can anyone help? Am i reading it wrong?
It seems to me that Douzet is saying that also in issue 246, there is another text, after the Pumaz entry, talking about the 'cipher'.

I cannot find this in issue 246.

Does anyone know if this appeared in the issue, or a different issue, or Douzet has added this himself?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2010 12:11 pm 
Offline
Queen Bee
User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 9245
Location: France
Quote:
Quote:
tingra wrote:
i didnt realise until recently that there is a funeral tradition amongst the European royalty of removing the heart before buriel
.

Quote:
Eginolf replied:
I read that also one of the Hautpouls had this treatment done.



En 1674, Antoine d'Hautpoul, seigneur de Rennes, blessé à la mâchoire gauche d'un coup de mousquet alors qu'il combat à la bataille d'Holzen, ordonne par testament le lieu de sa sépulture. Son corps est inhumé dans l'église du couvent des Cordeliers [Limoux] tandis que son cœur est conservé dans la chapelle de Notre-Dame de Marceille.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Pumaz Report
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2010 6:11 pm 
Offline
Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2008 2:43 pm
Posts: 1872
Quote:
En 1674, Antoine d'Hautpoul, seigneur de Rennes, blessé à la mâchoire gauche d'un coup de mousquet alors qu'il combat à la bataille d'Holzen, ordonne par testament le lieu de sa sépulture. Son corps est inhumé dans l'église du couvent des Cordeliers [Limoux] tandis que son cœur est conservé dans la chapelle de Notre-Dame de Marceille.

Thanks Sheila,
On my recent trip to France I visited Notre-Dame de Marceille, I didn't see any mention of said heart and its not in the chapel's visitors guide. It was also sad to see, that the altar section and the stations etc behind in St Martins of Limoux was blocked for visitors access, because of vandalism :evil: . Some photo's of both to follow when I get organised.
Regards
Nic


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 65 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group