Arcadia Discussion Zone

Geminae Cristae.......

Virgil....The Kings that are to be.

West connects the twin flames above Augustus’ head with the twin crests on the helmet of Romulus that Aeneas observes in the underworld (geminae stant uertice cristae 6.777-80).50 This creates a parallel between Augustus and Romulus, who was the son of Mars and was the deified Quirinus. Virgil says that Mars honored Romulus with his own sign (et pater ipse suo superum iam signat honore 6.780). Augustus’ twin flames can also be interpreted as a sign from Mars, one that is appropriate for a great battle and which gives Augustus military authority. Additionally, the twin flames above Augustus’ head at Actium equal the plumes like fire on the helmet of Aeneas (8.620). This increases the family connections between Augustus, Ascanius/Iulus, Aeneas, Romulus, and Mars and proclaims the divinity of the family.

The flames above Augustus’ head on the shield of Aeneas should also be linked with the flames that appeared above the heads of Aeneas and Iulus. Virgil reports a flame over Aeneas’ head ‘like a comet’ just before he begins battle in Latium:

ardet apex capiti cristisque a uertice flamma
funditur et uastos umbo uomit aureus ignis:
non secus ac liquida si quando nocte cometae
sanguinei lugubre rubent, aut Sirius ardor
(Aen. 10.270-73)

These flames shooting from Aeneas’ helmet and shield, which the poet likens to comets glowing red in a clear night or the star Sirius, recall the flame over Iulus in Book 2 immediately before the comet. The simile, which contains both comets and star, increases the connections between comet, star, and divine flame. West says that Aeneas’ flaming head refers to the star that Augustus put over the statues of Caesar,51 and he is surely correct. The comets and the star of the simile look back to the comet/star and the star of Venus in Book 2 and also recall the Julian comet.52 But the association is not merely Julian but is also Augustan: the flames appear above Aeneas’ head at the moment when, like Augustus at Actium, Aeneas is leading his fleet into battle, immediately before he commences war. It is an omen that marks the beginning of a new era, just as the comet in Book 2 announced that it was time for the Trojans to found Rome (when Anchises in prayer speaks of Troy (2.703), Rome is meant)53 and just as Caesar’s comet proclaimed a new Golden Age was about to begin. Aeneas’ flame with its comet and star simile looks ahead to Augustus’ reign just as much if not more than it alludes to Caesar’s apotheosis.

The flame above the head of Ascanius/Iulus (2.682-4) makes him a prototype of Augustus, who is also depicted with flames in the Aeneid (8.680).54 Just as the divinely favored Iulus will be a great king, so Augustus will rule in peace and prosperity. West says that the fire over the head of Iulus is ‘holy’ (sanctos 2.686) like the comet (sanctum 2.700) and that it predicts the comet’s appearance.55 Weinstock interprets the flame over Iulus as a manifestation of his divine descent from Aeneas, especially since the Iulii later worshipped Aeneas as Jupiter and Iulus as the son of Jupiter,56 and there is a divine connotation to both the Iulian flame and the comet/star in the Aeneid. The twin plumes on the crest of Romulus are another example of headgear with a divine aura. The poet calls them the distinguishing mark of Mars, bestowed on his son Romulus to indicate that he is destined to join the gods (et pater ipse suo superum iam signat honore 6.780).57 If the twin plumes signify Romulus’ divinity, then Augustus’ twin flames must mean his own. Romulus was distinguished by his father Mars’ sign of divine favor and of future divinity; Augustus, the son of the divine Julius Caesar, is likewise honored by the gods with an equally portentous sign. Iulus, Aeneas, and Augustus are all distinguished by divine signs over their heads; all are destined to become gods.

In 17 BC M. Sanquinius issued aurii and denarii depicting Caesar and his comet on the reverse. On the obverse was a messenger for the ludi saeculares, holding a caduceus and a shield embossed with a six-pointed star, wearing a helmet with two feathers, and with the inscription AUGUST[us] DIVI F[ilius] LUDOS SAE[culares].58 Although this coin appeared a few years after the publication of the Aeneid, it indicates ideas that were current at the time of the epic’s composition. The double plumes recall the Aeneid’s double plumes of Mars, of Iulus, and of Romulus and the twin flames over the head of Augustus at Actium. Augustus’ title, diui filius, suggests the divinity of Caesar and Augustus’ epithet in the Aeneid (diui genus 6.792).
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/classics/lics/20 ... lliams.doc

It all still boils down to veneration of Jesus, yes? Constantine could have toed the gnostic line of his day, but it was obvious to him who called the shots in the gnostic world. His mother definitely set him straight, yes? She isn't called a Saint by virtue of being his mom, she did I would say 99% of the leg work to get the Catholic Church established, Constantine did the last 1% by establishing its right to exist.

Its a shame folk can't comprehend the unfolding of history as it unfolded. While Constantine was giving the Catholic religion preferential treatment in his empire, the kabala-gnostic krowd were definitely not sitting back lickin' their wounds. just look at how they infiltrated the Khazar empire which enabled the Judaic-zionist kabala -gnostic religion to gain far more adherents than the original tribes of israel were able to muster.

If ya wanna get a glimpse of this world read what Jack Bernstein, an amareekin jew who migrated to Isra-hell wrote. To him Isra-hell is 95% zionist-rabbinic + 5% Torah Judaic. Barry Chamish was exiled due to this conundrum when he published the workings of present day Isra-hell. The D I R T list that condemns 7,000 Jews for not toeing this zíonist line is further proof of how this infiltration process works.

Now, back to the Crista- Chi Rho. Its no big deal that other groupings beg-borrow or usurp symbols from other sources. When Constantine was out doin' his 'thang' there was no mass media proliferation. He did what his conscience with the able assistance of his devout mother dictated to him. If ya notice, he ain't a Saint, his mother is. He was shaky at best in his new found belief, but his mother was rock-solid in hers.

Perhaps ya can say he was a bit of a mommy's boy, yes? IMHO it was she who wore the pants in the family and had bigger balls than sonny boy. All the focus solely on Constantines pagan background is just a play to the galleries, 'cuz once he allowed Christianity to flourish and not be persecuted, IMHO he realized he did the right thing. Had he stifled the rise of Christianity, as Jack Bernstein called them... the Aske-NAZI's would have ended up as the ruling power in that part of the world.

Ya gotta see things globally, yes? Once ya go into nit-picky mode, ya lose the entire perspective. The kabala-gnostic krowd were really pissed off that Constantine didn't remain a pagan. In retrospect ya can say mommy Helena saved Christendom and the entire future European history. Now that's what I call a real woman.

This is the Bernstein story...
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/israel.htm

It all still boils down to veneration of Jesus, yes?

no no no no NO.....this object has NOTHING to do with jesus.
The object is pre christian, can you please get that into your head and stop your bible bashing

start your own thread for your jesus myth

http://home.infionline.net/~ddisse/radegund.html

Radegund was born in Thuringia, the daughter of a pagan king of central Germany. Around 530, her father's people were defeated by the Franks, and among the booty taken was Radegund, then about eight years old. Even at this age, she was considered, politically and personally, a valuable prize: the three Frankish kings fought over her, and the winner, Chlotar, sent her to a royal estate to be raised as a future queen. While there, Radegund learned Latin and read deeply in the lives of the saints. When Chlotar reclaimed and married Radegund about 540, he found that his barbarian wife had become a dedicated Christian and was determined to live an ascetic life of prayer.
Chlotar was not pleased, but like other royal Franks of this period he had other wives, and he tolerated Radegund's piety. Radegund, however, eventually ran away from her unwanted marriage and forced a terrified bishop to consecrate her as a nun. Chlotar and Radegund struggled for years more over her desire for a religious life, until Radegund finally won her point. Chlotar endowed Radegund with property near Poitier where she set up a convent, which she ruled until she died in 587.
In Radegund's time her house became an important center of the Frankish kingdom. She surrounded herself with other high-ranking women who wished a life of godly independence. Radegund's friendship was sought by literary and religious men. Her austerities gained her a reputation for personal holiness, too. Her standing as Christian leader allowed her to talk the Emperor Maurice into sending her a piece of the True Cross.
Radegund used the monastic vocation as a way out of the unpleasant obligations that her family history and her femaleness had saddled her with. Her position as an abbess allowed her far more autonomy, as the head of a wealthy aristocratic household, than would have been available to her in any other way. In a contemporary phrase she "changed her garments" (to modest clothing appropriate for a renunciate), and thus gained access to another world, where the usual gender-based restrictions were not so great. At the same time, however, her position in the world of the religiously dedicated reflected her pre-monastic status. continued to regard herself as a member of her husband's family, and acted as something of a godmother for the Frankish kings: Not every nun received gifts from an emperor, or could defy her bishop in the way Radegund sometimes did, trading on her queenly rank. Also, Radegund's biographer, the nun Baudonivia, makes it clear that Radegund
Because she loved all the kings, she prayed for the life of each and instructed us to pray without interruption for the stability [of the kingdoms]. Whenever she heard that they had turned against each other with hatred, she was greatly shaken and sent letters to the one and the other [imploring them] not to wage war and take up arms against each other...In the same way, she sent great men to give salutary advice to the illustrious kings so that the country should be made more salubrious both for the king and the people.
Baudonivia also reports that Radegund's regarded her relic of the true cross "as an instrument whereby the salvation of the kingdom would be secured and the welfare of the country assured." For all the talk of withdrawing from the world, Radegund like other monastic leaders had merely withdrawn to a different position in the world, from which she could exercise special functions: intercession with God for her kin and neighbors, and mediation among quarrelling Christians. In this way she paid for her privileges and acquired further respect.
http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/his ... OVC4s6.htm

During the Merovingian period, nuns, like monks, as intercessors provided comfort and divine protection for the villages and villagers around their communities, as well as aid for travelers and the needy. At the same time, it was easy for them to become enmeshed in the political intrigues, partly because of the aristocratic bloodlines of monastics, but also because of the dependence of secular leaders upon their intercessory powers.

So, despite the desire to keep holy persons separate from the world, reality often came knocking on the monastery door. And in the reality of the Merovingian world, the ways in which nuns interacted with the world did not always meet expectations. Queen Radegund, founder of a convent, St. Croix, at Poitiers in 561 after a daring escape from her captor-husband, provides an example of the expectations placed on women monastics and the reality of how these expectations were met.

Early on, Radegund had requested a copy of the Rule of St. Caesarius of Arles for her nuns to follow.(24) Caesarius' rule carried commands of such severe cloistering that it might be expected that Radegund, who had longed to establish a monastery and then sought out this strict rule to govern it, to retreat into the cloister, never to be heard from or seen again. Radegund, however, proved not to be the retiring sort.(25) Instead, the former queen kept abreast of the activities of her earthly relatives and had dinners and visitors in her convent, despite the prohibition of banqueting in Caesarius' rule.(26) For example, Radegund and her foster daughter, Agnes, frequently entertained a romantic poet/priest, Venantius Fortunatus, with lavish dinners in the convent.

Where her nuns were concerned, however, Radegund seemed to support the spirit of Caesarius' rule. Gregory of Tours recounts that at one point the nun Basina refused to leave the monastery even though her father, King Chilperic, had ordered her to do so in order to marry.(27) Radegund supported Basina's decision: "It is not seemly," she said, "for a nun dedicated to Christ to turn back once more to the sensuous pleasures of this world.(28) For Basina's part, it is unclear whether she refused her father because of the conventual vow of cloistering, or, perhaps, she just did not want to marry.(29)

Radegund's personal decision to ignore aspects of Caesarius' rule may have stemmed from her reasons for accepting it in the first place. As foundress of her newly established monastery, Radegund did not get along with the local bishop, Maroveus, who was trying to bring St. Croix under his sway. In an attempt to break away from this acrimonious relationship, Radegund chose to place her convent under the rule of Caesarius of Arles, which, in turn, placed the convent under the protection of the king, her kinsman, rather than under the bishop.(30)

Overall, it seems that Radegund adopted Caesarius' rule more as a convenience to avoid having to deal with the bellicose Maroveus than with any desire to retreat permanently behind the walls of a monastic community. And Radegund's decision to turn to her family rather than the Church represents how family connections often were used to obtain whatever the monastery needed.(31) Because it was the abbess or abbot who provided for the material and spiritual welfare of the monastery, she or he needed to maintain lies with the outside world through the resources of kin.

Radegund's relationship with the world, particularly with its rulers, demonstrates the intercessory role that kings and other nobles often desired of holy persons. Because monasteries were nearly the only places of learning during this period, those inhabiting these communities were often the most educated and, thus, best able to give advice. Secular leaders assumed that these nuns and monks had available to them all of God's wisdom, and as His earth-bound representatives of the heavenly family, they surely could bring His divine aid to earth. Hilda of Whitby, according to Bede, counseled kings of Anglo-Saxon England: "So great was her prudence that not only ordinary folk, but kings and princes used to come and ask her advice in their difficulties and take it."(32) Gregory of Tours provides the example of Nicetius, bishop of Trier, who, as a monk, earned the favor of a Frankish king and was then promoted to his bishopric by the king.(33)

In addition to advice, monastics were sought after for their intercession. In return for prayers from the holy community, the wealthy bestowed gifts upon the monastery. This is why Radegund, who fled from her husband, Lothar, later received his aid to establish the convent at Poitiers.(34) No doubt, the Frankish king hoped for spiritual rewards in return.(35)

For her own part, Radegund involved herself and the convent in the temporal affairs of the kingdom, praying for peace in the land. Baudonivia, who wrote a vita of Radegund, presents the clearest picture of the former queen's connection with the outside world:

She was always solicitous for peace and worked diligently for the welfare of the fatherland. Whenever the different kingdoms made war on one another, she prayed for the lives of all the kings, for she loved them all. And she taught us also to pray incessantly for their stability. Whenever she heard of bitterness arising among them, trembling, she sent such letters to one and then to the other pleading that they should not make war among themselves nor take up arms lest they should perish. And, likewise, she sent to their noble followers to give the high kings salutary counsel so that their power might work to the welfare of the people of the land. She imposed assiduous vigils on her flock tearfully teaching them to pray incessantly for the kings. And who can tell what agonies she inflicted on herself? So, through her intercession, there was peace among the kings.(36)
http://organizations.ju.edu/fch/1994hamilton.htm

http://www.ignatius.com/Books/Supplemen ... spx?SID=1&

From Radegund's letter to all area bishops. The tone is not quite that of the "humble and unworthy" nun addressing her "masters":]

Some time ago, when I found myself freed from earthly cares, with Divine Providence and with God's grace to inspire me, I turned of my own volition, under Christ's guidance, to the religious life. I asked myself, with all the ardor of which I am capable, how I could best forward the cause of other women, and how, if our Lord so willed, my own personal desires might be of advantage to my sisters.

Here in the town of Poitiers I founded a convent for nuns.... For the community which, with Christ to help me, I had myself assembled, I accepted the Rule in accordance with which Saint Caesaria had lived.... I appointed as Mother Superior the Lady Agnes, who became like a sister to me, and whom I have loved and brought up as if she were my daughter from her childhood onwards.... The other nuns and I followed the example of the Apostles in making over to her by deed whatever earthly property we possessed at the moment we entered the nunnery....

However, since the affairs of human beings are unpredictable, and because our times and our circumstances are always changing, for the world is running to its end and some people now prefer to follow their own desires rather than the dictates of God, while I am still alive, and in full devotion, in Christ's name and with God to guide me, I send to you, apostolic fathers, this document in which I have set out all my plans. [Thorpe, pp.533-36]


"I conjure you... to ensure that no tyrant may stand in my way."


[The letter continues:]

...I conjure you, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and by the Day of Judgment, just as if I stood before you, to ensure that no tyrant may stand in my way, but that the rightful king may crown my wishes.

If perchance after my death any person whatsoever, either the bishop of this city, or some representative of the king, or any other individual, should attempt, in a spirit of malevolence or by some legal subterfuge, to disturb the community, or to break the Rule, or to appoint any Mother Superior other than Agnes...;

---or if the community should rise in revolt, which is surely impossible, and wish to make a change;

---or if any person, possible even the bishop of the diocese, should wish to claim, by some newfangled privilege, jurisdiction of any sort over the nunnery, or over the property of the nunnery, beyond that which earlier bishops, or anyone else, have exercised during my lifetime;

---or if any nun shall wish to break the Rule and go out into the world;

---or if any prince, or bishop, or person in power, or even individuals from among the nuns themselves, shall attempt with sacrilegious intent to diminish or to appropriate to his or her own personal possession any part or parcel of the property which our most noble Lothar and the most glorious kings his sons have bestowed upon me...,

may that person incur the wrath of God and that of your holiness and of all those who succeed you, and may all such persons be shut off from your grace as robbers and despoilers of the poor.... [p.536]


"... by God's will and by my own intent."


You, too, saintly Bishop, and those who come after you, whom I hasten to appoint as my patrons in God's cause, if any be found who shall try to act contrary to these my dispositions, which God forbid, do not be slow to make your appeal to the king who at that time shall rule over this place, or to the city of Poitiers, on behalf of this institution which is commended to your care before the Lord; and do not shrink from the vital labour of pursuing and defending the ends of justice: for only thus will you repel and confute the Enemy of God.

No Catholic king shall brook in any wise such infamy in his time, nor shall they permit to be torn down what has been builded up, by God's will and by my own intent and by the wishes of the several kings....
http://home.infionline.net/~ddisse/radegund.html

Sheila:

THANK YOU! Finally a concise and cogent explanation of just what the Crista is hypothesized to be, at least from your perspective (and I am guessing Roger's and IBJ's perspective as well?). This seemed to be all that Steve was asking for in a number of well thought-out posts in the thread "What IS a Crista? Just explain to me PLEASE." Sadly, he only got the usual nasty put-downs from Roger.

I will have to do some research into the standard historical explanations of the origins of the Chi-Rho symbol to see how your hypothesis stands up. It would not surprise me at all to find out it was derived from pagan symbolism. You may well be on to something there.

In the meantime, what I find alarming, is that you seem to be saying (if I understand you correctly) that the Crista was a physical object with supernatural powers. You seem hesitant to say much here, and I won't push except to ask you to affirm or deny:

DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS WAS A PHYSICAL OBJECT WITH SUPERNATURAL POWER?

And dare I ask for Roger to confirm or deny his belief about this being an object with supernatural power? (Not that I expect an answer from dear ol' Bertie, but maybe he will treat me to another of his wonderful put-downs).

BTW, I had to really chuckle at your calling me a "lightweight." That was funny! Good sarcastic humor I can appreciate. Nasty put-downs ad nauseum are another thing. But we can't except everyone on this forum to be mannered, now can we?

Tingra, think for just a nano second. Why would Constantine and his mother a Saint go along with an antithetical concept?

Sheils sez...The PAX Chi Rho symbol that is called the "monogram" of Christ and appears in churches all over the world...is no such thing....

Why is this Pax ChiRho symbol in the Church called that? especially if it can be pinpointed as coming into the Church in Constantine's time, just as the Catholic Church built Cathedrals over pagan ruins, don't automagically mean all that dead pagan mojo oozed back into that Cathedral and re-claimed it. You be watchin' too many horror-splat fliks of the vampire kind.

If anything, yer attempt to restrict the Chi Rho to just a pagan use falls within the purview of the vampire threads with Farrant + Manchester, may the best ghoul win, hehehe.

Ya see, in this instance The Catholic Church usurped that symbol and firmly attached it to the persona of Jesus, blessed it and all the pagan protestations in the world ain't gonna change that situation 1 iota, yes?

.Just like the simple 2 curved lines that depict a fish, supposedly came from a unk pagan source. Early Christians weren't stupid ya know. They made good use of it right in front of the noses of pagans of 2,000 years back. That simple symbol is now part + parcel of Catholic tradition and the Vatican could care less what the gnostics say.

The Cross symbol the pagans claim is theirs, yeah sure. The only reason the Cross symbol became venerated is due to the person who originated Christianity died on one. Had the device He died on be of another shape of another material, the same veneration would occur. What I am plainly sayin' is ya fell right into a trap set up by the folks that rabbi who sez the kabala-gnostc rabbinate are behind every one of these heresy outbreaks.

Let's face it Tingra, + Sheila yer repeatin' the same mantra these kabala.-gnostics have cranked out for 2,000 years and the Vatican in its wisdom just sits back and observes the kabala-gnostiv krowd go thru their motions every generation. Yers is not the 1st generation to get bent around the axle over these trivial points, yer not the last generation either. Ya just got suckered in and the kabala-gnostics just sit back and watch another generation of pagans do their bidding, nuthin' new in his game scenario, yer just the latest iteration of it. Yer kids will be the next to go thru these motions, and they will encounter another ole jake who gladly encourages them to vent their spleen, its good therapy for ya.

Here's one more salient point for ya to chew on. How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill by His existence?, His mission on earth?, His death by Crucifixion?, His Resurrection?, etc.that came from OT? I can bet ya the Rev Jeff knows every one of them. Ya see, even if every vestige of His life was depicted by some pagan prototype, guess what, they are still a pagan prototype. They made zero input in the ministry Jesus established. The kabala-gnostic krowd can insist all they can, don't mean Jesus had to abide by it.

Jesus had the advantage the pagans didn't have, namely they were figments of somebody long dead's imagination. Nobody knows who those jive turkeys are. In the case of Jesus, He is the central focal point. His arrival was awaited by prophets who are known in Judaic tradition. Jesus came from a royal House Jews of His day were aware of. That's why His mother met every criteria according to Judaic tradition. Its this 1 on 1 clearly delineated connection that makes all the pagan fore runners read like comic book characters.

Jesus is unique by virtue of the fact a 2,000 y.o functioning religion He originated still holds sway. No pagan cult has pulled that off. The Judaic religion is definitely not a cult, yes? Islam on the other hand is sort of semi-pagan 'cuz they are a weird hodge-podge conglomeration of tenets taken from multiple sources, Judaic, Christian, local tribal customs etc. Their saving grace is they are a monotheistic religion like Judaism, and Trinitarian Single God of Catholicism.

The way I see it, Rev Jeff called everybody's bluff here, yes? Roger has yet to come clean, IBJ has not defined the crista to Seeker's satisfaction. I go by traditional Catholic belief in the Holy Eucharist, which means the crista is just another 'thang' the kabala-gnostic krowd created.

Let's put it this way, if the kabala-gnostic krowd knew what the crista is or was and got control of it, do ya think we'd have this discussion 'boot it?

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... like a small nuclear power plant, a left over by some Aliens ...

Tingra at 1st sez no it ain't got nuthin' to do with Jesus, then sez about a particular nun living in 6th Cent...For the community which, with Christ to help me,...

Then Sheila sez...Even if people have problem with IBJ's in depth study surely you can understand the implications just by reading the history.
The PAX Chi Rho symbol that is called the "monogram" of Christ and appears in churches all over the world...is no such thing.
History tells us about Constantine the Great going specifically to the "most beautiful temple in the world" that A L-J states quite categorically was just north of the Seine river in the sacred plain where the Druidic tribes from Gaul converged once a year. Here Constantine was actually given two objects...one of which was a very ancient revered artifact used for a specific purpose which i wont go into right now.
This pagan object was subjected to political & churchy spin/propoganda and portrayed as the PAX Chi Rho, because that's kind of what it looks like...taken & used by the early French church it was evolved into the Fleur de Lys and Christ's "monogram"...even though it was nothing of the sort.
Centuries later and even today it is being searched for by certain groups who want to use it for exactly the same purpose it was used for when it was first thrust into Constantines hands.

The object in question has got nothing to do with goodness & righteousness and everything to do with an ancient object that should never have seen the light of day.

Now here comes the double talk paradigm shift which truly puzzles me where She sez...Here Constantine was actually given two objects...one of which was a very ancient revered artifact used for a specific purpose which i wont go into right now. My take is... why not?
This pagan object was subjected to political & churchy spin/propoganda and portrayed as the PAX Chi Rho, because that's kind of what it looks like...taken & used by the early French church it was evolved into the Fleur de Lys and Christ's "monogram"...even though it was nothing of the sort.

The problem I see here is called subterfuge. Sheila obviously never bothered to read what the rabbi wrote regarding the kabala-gnostic rabbinics behind every heresy in the Church. France was an easy target for these kabalists. France still is. Otherwise why does France have the largest jewish population in EU outside of Isra-hell?

Nuthin' French reps the entire Catholic Church, it never has, it never will. It tried its damnedest during the Avignon Captivity and failed miserably. The Sauniere-RLC enigma is only possible in a country like superstition laden France, with more palm-reader crystal ball gazers than any country in the EU.

Sheila also forgets what Disraeli sez ''boot kabala-gnostic infiltration of the Papacy, 20 Jewish Popes up to his time. This is the period where the Church was most debauched, most heresy prone, and guess what Sheila? after a couple of Reformation Synods, all that was trashed just like 4th Cent Synods shit-canned all the kabala-gnostic screed that has been re-cycled today in zakly the form yer unloadin' on the forum now.

It'd be intellectually-academically honest of ya if ya cite all yer sources so that these kabala-gnostics get their proper attribution. Roger is in the same conundrum by his gettin' suckered in by all of those charlatans. If ya notice he skirts around his sources when they illustrate this kabala-gnostic pedigree.

That's why I stay on rock-solid ground starting with Sr Emmerich's narrative. I seriously doubt Roger could withstand 25 seconds of what the nun endured for 25 years. Sadder still is the fact neither Roger nor I have been singled out for the same blessing she was granted. I don't think extreme poverty is Roger's 'thang. y'awl. I know what its like to hump the boonies with a fully laden rucksack + survive on a single MRE's pouch a day.

If ya notice Roscoe really foams at the gills when he protests how the Vatican blithely built on top of every pagan site it could find. The Church has taken symbols out of the clutches of pagans and sanitized them to be conventional Church related symbols. Was the Vatican forced to do this? surely y'awl jest here. The Vatican was rubbin' pagan noses into their own excrescence, took the heebie-jeebie good luck charm mojo they were purported to have and demo'd their proper place in daily life, free of any pagan superstitions attached.

If ya notice, its only the kabala-gnostics who re-hash all of this we wuz robbed of our toys mantra. The Vatican decides what it wants to do with them and obviously could give a damn as to what pagan heathens get their nickers in a twist 'boot. Sheila + Tingra I have nuthin' against ya personally for wantin' to express yer IMHOs, but they end up bein' yer IMHOs when the sun goes down, yes?

Its gonna be hard for ya to convince 1 billion faithful Catholics Jesus is not the center of their universe.

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Uh, Sheila, which particular kabala-gnostic is the source of yer latest reply?

Why would anyone want to convince these poor souls, whom have such a great need to put a human name and face on their Sun god, anything. If following fables makes them happy, let them have at it.

christianity and the whole rediculous jesus myth is the greatest fable there is

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"Christianity" is the "works of man". Yes, beware.

the inauguration rite of early kingships in the West the first traces of a coronation order seem to be found in Spain and in Great Britain. Some of the Spanish councils speak copiously, though vaguely, of the election of kings (Migne, P.L., LXXXIV, 385, 396, 426), and while in the first half of the seventh century there is no mention of unction but only of a profession of faith and promise of just government on the part of the king with a corresponding oath of fealty on the art of his subjects, towards the close of the same century we have the clearest evidence that the Visigothic kings on their accession were solemnly anointed by the Bishop of Toledo. When in 672 the oil was poured upon the head of the kneeling King Wamba a cloud of vapour arose (evaporatio quædam fumo similis in modum columnæ, Julian, Historia, c. iv; Migne, P.L., XCVI, 766) which was regarded by those present as a supernatural portent. For the rest we know little of this early Spanish coronation rite beyond the fact that it was a religious ceremony and that the king undertook certain obligations towards his people. It is chiefly interesting as supplying the earliest known examples of the unction. Whether this ceremony was instituted by the Spanish bishops in imitation of what they read in the Old Testament concerning the unction of Saul, David, and Solomon (1 Samuel 10 and 16; 1 Kings 1) or whether they themselves derived it from some early Christian tradition it seems impossible now to decide.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04380a.htm

Thus in 672 King Wamba was anointed by the archbishop of Toledo in a ceremony that was described by his contemporary, St. Julian of Toledo, as follows: “When he had arrived there, where he was to receive the vexilla of the holy unction, in the praetorian church, that is to say the church of Saints Peter and Paul, he stood resplendent in his regalia in front of the holy altar and, as the custom is, recited the creed to the people. Next, on his bended knees the oil of blessing was poured onto his head by the hand of the blessed bishop Quiricus, and the strength of the benediction was made clear, for at once this sign of salvation appeared. For suddenly from his head, where the oil had first been poured on, a kind of vapour, similar to smoke, rose upon the form of a column, and from the very top of this a bee was seen to spring forth, which sign was undoubtedly a portent of his future good fortune.”
http://romanitas.ru/eng/ROYAL%20ANOINTI ... IQUITY.htm

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Allegoral IMHO.....or one hell of a hot flush

I particularly like this bit.....

where he was to receive the vexilla of the holy unction

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In some of the IMHOs posted above the notion of man-made' churchianity' comes to mind. In this regard the Rev Jeff may get upset with me here, 'cuz all Protestant sects, denominations, etc are man-made. The Catholic Church evolved directly from the Discipleship of the Apostles who got their imprimatur from jesus. The early Church fathers are a direct link to this elite group. In this regard the Catholic Church got a fortuitous start.

Along comes several Jewish infiltrator Popes of the Alexander 6 variety that enabled the Protestant Schisms that were the handiwork of the kabala-gnostic rabbinate as mentioned by the rabbi article I mentioned early on. If ya notice, later on after several Reformation Synods lthe Vatican recovered and proceeded onward with its dedicated mission as set out by Jesus to gather in as many souls possible for Redemption.

In The U.S today, if I get this right, over 32,000 registered man made, non-Catholic sects, predominantly protestant affiliated street front ghetto style 'churches'. These so-called 'churches' are abusing the tax free status they gain. Ya can include televangelist hucksters like Benny Hinn into these storefront scam 'churches.

I assume it will take the appearance of the AntiC during a world wide Tribulation to get folks to see how skewed their notions are. When yer forced to take the mark of the beast as its put in the Apocalypse, ya seal yer own doom, what's the current trendy cliche?--ya shot yerself in the foot? yer fucked forever when ya make that mistake, 'cuz its irreversible.

Perhaps its this crista 'thang' that AntiC will whip out and con folks with. Sheila may be correct in her premonitions, but for all the wrong reasons, IMHO. How else is AntiC gonna be able to con folks into thinkin' he is the awaited Mahdi-Messiah of Jews + Muslims, its gonna be a harder sell to con Catholics into thinkin' AntiC is the 2nd Comin', 'cuz lots of others stuff has to occur, IAW the Apocalypse description.

Now, ain't ya glad Jesus took care of folks these past 2,000 years and spelled out what yer in for and how to avoid damnin' yerselfl to perdition?

Why that's mighty Christian of Him, IMHO.

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The Catholic Church evolved directly from greed and the need to control and used mans biggest fear as a means to prosper.