Arcadia Discussion Zone

Ta TCP, I guessed that was probable. Not a bad programme though, there are better presenters in that field however the subject matter and before unseen manuscripts are fabulous. Thanks for the link ( I couldn't get it to work direct, but found the book with a quick search. I'll grab one if I see it for a decent price ). Here is that link:-
http://tinyurl.com/d73mx5f
Regards
Nic

I love illuminated manuscripts
I've written about some and so I can't wait to see some of these

well
Nic this is a Tau shaped Crozier


Saint Dimitry of Rostov ...Eastern Orthodox ....Russian

The shape of that starts to look like an Egyptian 'was' staff.

Edited: Maybe Sauniere was involved in the raising of the 'djed' !

Sure seems to have raised funds from the dead.

A crash helmet

Did Childebert ride a Harley Davidson?

The image is actually Charles le Chauve (a Carolingian) and there are numerous references referring to the "helmet" as a globe (some say "celestial" globe).

Odd shape for a war helmet, particularly one purported to be of Roman vintage.

TCP

Are you serious? He was obviously more of a BMW type of guy

...... le globe et la croix à Byzance:

Les successeurs chrétiens des empereurs païens remplacent l'ancienne Victoire par l'instrument de légitimation de leur nouveau pouvoir : la croix victorieuse qui sera associée aux signes traditionnels du pouvoir impérial et particulièrement au globe.
L'art orthodoxe, en faisant des empereurs les lieutenants du Seigneur sur la Terre, revisite les traditions païennes en fusionnant l'art impérial et l'art chrétien

......Le père et le fils.

Le globe dans la main du Père représente l'univers sur lequel il exerce sa toute-puissance.
En revanche, dans la main du Christ, il évoque davantage la Terre où celui-ci s'est incarné, où il est mort et ressuscité. L'accent est mis sur son rôle de Sauveur du monde. Le premier sera donc le créateur, l'artisan de toutes choses, le deuxième le sauveur.



.....Le globe crucifère des Carolingiens.

Tandis que la sphère des empereurs romains indiquait la légitimité de leur pouvoir, celle des empereurs chrétiens désigne davantage le champ sur lequel il s'exerce.
Au moment où les princes d'Orient affirment l'universalité et la sacralité de leur pouvoir, Charlemagne semble se fonder sur une autre conception de l'empire : est empereur celui qui règne sur plusieurs peuples. Il se veut un nouveau Salomon, un roi philosophe, un modèle de justice.


.......La symbolique royale française.

Le roi de France se distingue au Moyen Âge en excluant de ses attributs le globe, l'épée et la croix pour leur préférer le sceptre, parfois réduit à une fleur de lis ou remplacé par une main de justice. Mais le globe réapparaît à la veille de la Renaissance sur un sceau de Louis XII.
Avec la découverte du Nouveau Monde, la volonté de convertir toutes les nations au Christianisme s'exacerbe.
La responsabilité n'en incombe plus aux seuls empereurs mais à tous les souverains européens


......Le Roi-Soleil et le monde.

Placé sous les rayons du soleil royal, le globe terrestre tient une place très importante dans la symbolique du pouvoir que Louis XIV exerce sur la France et au-delà.
Le souverain est souvent représenté en Apollon et, pour marquer son ascendant, il ne tient plus le globe dans sa main mais le met sous son pied ou encore s'assoit dessus



........Le règne de Dieu sur les sphères du monde.

Le pouvoir que les empereurs exercent sur le monde leur vient directement de Dieu, empereur céleste, souvent représenté en Pantocrator, créateur régnant sur toutes les sphères du monde.
Roi de la cour céleste, il siège parfois au centre d'une mandorle d'or, un globe surmonté d'une croix à la main, entouré de cercles d'anges et de saints.

http://expositions.bnf.fr/globes/bornes/it/3a2/02.htm

so, that was the globe, but where does the helmet come into all this?



this is a papal tiara as you know and looks rather globe-like but it's origins are to be found in the frigium or Phrygian cap which started life as a white linen cap... and the tiara, from which the mitre originates probably developed from this conical frigium.

We place, O Lord, the helmet of your fortification and salvation, upon the head of this Bishop, your combatant, with beauty adorned, and head armored, so that with the horns of each Testament he might appear terrible to the adversaries of truth; and, with You having lavished grace upon him, that he stand out as their valiant attacker, You who marked the face of Your servant Moses, embellished from the partnership of Your word, with the most shining horns (trumpets....ha!) of your clarity and truth: and You ordered a crown be placed ( ‘Phrygian bonnet with lappets or two dangly bits?) on the head of Aaron your high priest. Through Christ Our Lord....etc etc

i'm interested in seeing which route IBJ is heading down, because there is always the "salvation-giving helmet" route, but if he chooses this way i can't see how the phenomenon of the "salvation-giving helmet" is an actual object....an attribute yes, but not a solid object.

For example, we read how Bishop Avitus of Vienne when writing to Clovis the great Merovingien soon after the event of his baptism with that potent political tool the perfumed unction, the holy oil, le saint chrême... claiming that he had seen with the eyes of the spirit how the "waters of life" were poured on the King's limbs and how his royal locks received the "salvation-giving helmet of holy anointing" and how his body was clothed in the "robes of baptism". Like rebirth, the future king arose from the font clothed with the power of regeneration and transformation by virtue of the inherent property and power in the oil....

The "salvation-giving helmet" in this case is an allusion to the aigrettes of fire that arose from the royal anointed brow and which licked over their hair without burning....it is not an object perse so maybe we're back round to Aeneas and Ascanius again, which would be very interesting.

Its very strange Sheila, that you should talk about this.

There is an upcoming study day at Oxford University about this fascinating subject - i hope to attend.
There is also a brilliant one on Christian symbolism and Paganism in the 4th century, slap bang in Constantines times
I hope to attend this one too.

Fancy a day out?

Don't you just hate those nylon combs?

Sorry, but I'm confused.......................
Are you now suggesting that the Crista isn't a golden Cross but is actually a 'Globus Cruciger'?
Makes it a rather mundane piece of Royal regalia after all?
Was that the sound of the goal posts moving ?

TD

if by chance this is directed at my post then no, i was just setting out what the globe or sphere relates to in this context, can't you read ?

No dear lady, it wasn't directed at your post.
This may come as some suprise but it's not all about YOU!
As usual you don't bother with an IMHO or anything so irritating as some footnotes.
I note that you've taken to posting in French, ............it's the sincerest form of flattery.............he must be so proud !
As to whether I can read...........a little unecessarily confrontational, perhaps ?

TD

so who's the "you" your reply was directed at then if it wasn't to comment on my post ?.......and i posted in French because it came from a French link...can't you read ?

Was it a heavy night ?
A little jaded and tetchy? Must have been celebrating Sir Brad's victory in the Tour !
My understanding is that this is a public Forum and so one mustn't assume everything is directed at 'you'
Even if 'you' have set yourself up as the 'Expert' on the subject!
Why not have a lie down in a cool dark barn or go and shout at the sheep, you'll feel sooooooooooo much better!

TD

i'm not quite sure why you are always so rude TD...who was your question directed at please...it's a simple question.

I replied with..."if by chance this is directed at my post then no, i was just setting out what the globe or sphere relates to in this context, can't you read ?"


In reply i wrote...."so who's the "you" your reply was directed at then if it wasn't to comment on my post ?.......and i posted in French because it came from a French link...can't you read ?"



again i replied with..."i'm not quite sure why you are always so rude TD...who was your question directed at please...it's a simple question."

Me, Rude?
Just trying to understand the reasons behind your confrontational salvo.
Least said soonest mended!
Can you remember when you were young? Hangovers never lasted past 10am !
TD

so who was the post intended for please, can we at least clear that up.

Ranga,
Have you turned into Roscoe and keep reposting your own stuff?
I understand that your pre-disposition to confrontation is genetic but I refer you to the answer I gave earlier.
I hope that the British occupation of the Champs Elysée hasn't been the cause of this ill humour!
What was it you once said about people who DEMAND answers?
As Harry once said:-

"Put the lime in the coconut and call me in the morning"

TD