Arcadia Discussion Zone

Ren Man:

I've thought about it.

What dramatic effect throughout history? What History?

Always associated with a Religion? What religion?

Who are the religious interests are hunting for it today? Exactly whom, considering most people don't even know what, when and where it is?

Ok Rain Roger Sheila and Tingra
let us agree to disagree

I'm sorry I disagreed
Oh Wait a minute

Did I see this ????

Roger


Ahhhh so we do AGREE
among other things


You know Roger you and I have gone through this battle before awhile back
I'm glad it is coming back to the forefront

Spiritual Objects need to be handled with great care
....and there is a very good reason for it... it has to do with Angels
to call it just a pagan object is underestimating its power

It is about Shama's theory on the Power of Art
I don't think you would get it

Rain how many churches does it have to be in to be considered a Spiritual symbol?
I think the evidence in Sheila's picture is enough
but I bet the Christa is in other churches too








Ok Where was I
Oh back to the Book

The House of Chaumont
The French branch of the Saint Clairs
Robert de Chaumont (1134-1174), the estate of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte
Marie de Saint-Clair (1192-1266), daughter of Robert de Saint-Clair and Isabel Levis,
Will comeback to Marie de Saint Clair ...what a gal

Arnault de Saint-Clair ...keep him on the list

House of Courtenay
Pierre of France, Emperor of Constaninople, Comte d' Courtenay
1125, of Courtenay, Loiret, France
Robert I
de Courtenay
(1168-1239
Lord of Courtenay and Montargis.
Comte of Nevers (until 1199), Tonnerre and Auxerre through his first wife Agnès de Nevers (1184).
Marquis of Namur from 1212 thanks to his second wife Yolande de Hainaut (also known as Yolande de Flandre).
Emperor of Constantinople (elected in 1216 and crowned in 1217).
The house of Courtenay is of royal blood through the male lineage. King Louis VII of France was Peter of Courtenay's uncle.
Peter was cousin of Raymond VI of Toulouse.

Montpezat
not sure on this one

Rain
But I would like it if you could take a moment to understand the point that is being made here. I agree with Renaissance and you but if you have a "spiritual" problem then it is best done on theological debates forum or in church. Or something of that nature. It is outside the scope and cannot be properly addressed here.[quote][/quote]

I don't have a "Spiritual problem"
that was cute

But I will point out that you do understand that Renne Chateau mystery has to do with a Catholic Priest and a Catholic church ....it touches on religion and theology

It is about Mary Magdalene a SAINT ... in the BIBLE

Roger
Do you really know EXACTLY what it is about?

Excuse me, but I'm listening to a case being made and trying to understand it, I am not presenting The case Lov, I am presenting my understanding of a case being made so I don't appreciate the way I've been presented in that sentence.





Again you are misrepresenting the case that is being presented. WHERE does Sheila put other churches

She posted ONE picture of a pillar on this thread. One pillar, One Church, on this thread.

This isn't about you suggesting, how does it go, it's a "spiritual thang."

This is about the proposal being made by others

THE PROPOSAL BEING MADE AS I UNDERSTAND IT IS:

The object that was in the
1.)RLC CHURCH HOUSED AT ONE TIME
2.)PRE-CHRISTIAN of
3.)GREEK DERIVATION
4.)A REAL OBJECT.

***NOBODY claims it was on show in the RLC church and that it was an object of worship by the laity.

THE PROPOSAL THAT LOUVIAN IS MAKING IS

1.)SPIRITUAL CONCEPT,
2.)A CATHOLIC PRIEST
3.)A CATHOLIC CHURCH.

So basically your disagreement Lov, is what? They don't know "their" own proposal? And that you've just put words in their mouths.



Where is the evidence for that? According to you it's a spiritual concept not a pagan object? Sorry but you can't have it both ways.



What other Churches? Name them, Please.

Nowhere have I seen you define what your definition of SPIRITUALITY is, so I've had to try and work it out.

I personally think by being vague and allowing the term to remain undefined you can argue whatever position you want under the cover theology and religiousity because as everyone knows you can't argue with faith.

Well then let me bring back into the real world. A REAL, TANGIBLE CRISTAE (OBJECT), SOMETHING YOU CAN PROVE AND PROVE BY THIRD PARTY AGREEMENT AND CONSENSUS REALITY.

BTW



Sorry but that's the way it seems because your resistance to seeing what is a real object referred to in ancient literature and philosophies by nebulising it suggests it.
FYI: I may have spoken out of term. Sorry if I have, but I doubt I'm the only one.

I did include myself because as to the spiritual ramifications I have my own problems but I will deal with that off forum, personally and hopefully not allow it to affect my sometimes compromised objectivity.

but that statement you refer to it should be obvious I, personally am struggling spiritually and I may have overstated that anyone else feels my disquiet.
Added to that I don't take this lightly.
I don't think the concept is cute and I wasn't patronising anyone least of all myself, I just assumed others were struggling with the same moral and spiritual questions as I am.

I can honestly say I have been quiet in contemplation for the last few days. Contemplating the evidence and various other things. So I would appreciate you consider that and not cast me in the role villan.

On Page 108
The Dreamer of the Vine
Along the banks of the ancient river
Among the thickly wooded slopes
and the pure sunlight
I was convinced that he was right
The old gods still dwelled here in the cypresses
and the currents of the water and the stones and the earth
invisible to the sight of man

I have also been in Arcadia


Et in Arcadia ego

BTW I'm so sorry Richard, I'm not trying to go off topic. It is related but at the moment, I'm so totally confused. I have no idea what I'm doing and sometimes I think I do.
I just need some time to absorb the huge amounts of information flooding me at the moment and trying to put it some kind of order.

And Lov, I'm trying to attack you willey nilley. I'm trying to get you on the right track, in as much as I can. I'm trying to point out what is clear to me, and I'm sorry if part of that is wrong.
I don't think I'll ever be right till I die.

Try Lovuian to absorb some of the points I'm trying to make. Some of the critiscm is a bit snarky and as I've explained, it's the place I'm in mentally and spiritually at the moment.
If I didn't care I wouldn't take the time to respond. So, I hope you respect that, and that is also why I'm trying to make the effort rather than remain quiet. I sometimes have a bad way of shutting off on certain things, so believe me when I say this hard for me to come out of my shell at the moment.


Don't kneejerk react to my posts on the defensive, just ignore the negative but pay attention and try and understand what is being said.

This is on the first page of the thread. REMEMBER THIS. Try to understand Catholiscism is considered a relatively new religion in the scheme of things.

Richard:

BTW if you want a true discussion on "spirituality" you should look up the shannigans of the Count Alessandro di Cagliostro - Secret Ritual of Egyptian Rite Freemasonry etc...

and the Castle of the Carpathians, and Lyon, you know the place where the kabbalah still thrives.

Rain
You know I adore all of you
Roger Sheila and Tingra
I'll definitely read the book It sounds great

I leave the Crista to the Crista thread and to the ones who know exactly what its about
Ok sorry for the Chutzpah

But I just LOVE this BOOK OMG!!!

He offered me a cup
an exquisite goblet carved from solid mass of rock crystal
.... carved on the goblet


the goblet promises Nostradamus a vision of Madelene

Lov:

And I adore you Lov, which is why I'm trying to make the effort for you understand. I don't to leave you behind in your understanding and isolate you. I want you to be a part of this.

But just remember my name is Rain, not however you put it previously. I have my own very individual ideas and beliefs.

I didn't appreciate when Renne tried to morph me into Thomas by insinuation, I don't appreciate you trying to morph me into Sheila, Tingra and Roger. (Although you all now look very pretty and exotic. ) Just kidding but I'm not going to let anyone get away with it even if it is a subtle insinuation designed to escape detection.

Lov:

Again, I don't know exactly what it's all about. I skimmed some information and conflated Charlemange and Constantine. lol:

The people on the forum who have a significant understanding of it, are trying to help "us" understand what occurred a RLC. Very hard but it's what we signed up for willingly and it is why we are here. This isn't the orthodox part of Catholic teachings, that is why you haven't learnt about it in Church Lov. But if you truly want to understand the signicance of Sanuiere as is demonstrated by your presence in this section of the arcadia forum than you won't ignore it or trash the information given, where ever it comes from, instead you'll examine the evidence and the intricate nature of all the facets of RLC and in particular Sauniere's stay at RLC and the events surrounding it.

So what I'm trying to say is don't dismiss it out of hand just because the going is rough. It was designed to be tough to destroy further inspection of it because it deals with the "unorthodox" part of the RCC and a lot of the matters.
IMHO Including the dreamer of the Vine.

Information overload - a very real problem.

Untangling the web of information that has come down to us in the form of religious dogma, myth, legend, ancient writings of many sources etc etc over thousands of years, let alone the vested interests from today, is a mammoth task. Its no wonder we are all feeling a little confused. This is one reason why i have said as little as possible. These byeways need to be explored, i am confident we will find a path where everything falls into place.

Virgil yet again - a wise guy! Talking about dreams - so we are on topic!!
But these weren't dreams were they - more of an adventure.

Lov, do you remember that Celtic tale you referred to a while back. Tribal elder sets a challenge, the one who is successful goes on to stage two, the adventure. Same thing as Virgil is talking about. Same as Hercules and his tasks.
In the Celtic tale the elder sets the challenge that the candidates each have to tie a thread onto the toe of one of a pair of ghosts/spirits they will meet along the way. What is it they meet? A true reflection of themselves. They see their own divided nature. If they tie a string on one spirit, they are tying it on both. They fail the test.
It is only the one who has healed his divided self who can go on as he only meets one spirit, his true self.
The mirror of true reflection



closely associated with this

The 'coupling lovers' shows the same idea. Nothing sexual about it. It graphically depicts the combining (bringing together) of two very similar (not necessarily opposite) things. The result in the individual is a person who has new capabilities, and a different way of looking at things.

In the Celtic tale this individual (person undivided) is able to 'harrow hell' and bring back, after great adventures, 'secrets of the Gods' or some similar way of describing it. He normally returns with something that will help his tribe or even mankind in general. The period he is gone for is typically described as 'a year and a day' or some other mythically long period.

This now brings us back to Virgil and the dreams (on topic again). By coincidence Virgil is talking about entering the underworld in a dream state. Surely what he is really saying is 'in an altered state of consciousness' and he refers to the crista. There are enough commentaries on this to work out what the cristae is referring to. And its nothing to do with the rising sun. Yet wouldn't that be a marvellous analogy to use. The next question is "Is it anything to do with the underworld" - or is that just another analogy


The Dreamer of the Vine refers to exactly the same thing.

So with all this analogy flying about it is easy to see how the cult of the dead continues today.
Each to their own as they say.

Roger, you shouldn't put yourself down. Your ability to manipulate the English lanuage shames most native speakers. You're an expert.

Yes.

well roots of a tree go deep into the underground

From Dreamer of the Vine
page148

In even older parchments in Latin and Hebrew and Aramaic
the great trunk descended back through Merovee
to its roots beneath the earth
the ancient tribe of Benjamin
the First Chosen who abandoned Israel
when Judah rose in its place
The Benjaminites vilified because
the chose the Mother over the Father
who migrated to Arcadia
and thence to Gaul
settling at last in the virgin forests of Languedoc and Provence


So Liz Greene talks about documents ancient that was possessed by the House of Lorraine

Well, it looks like everyone is having lots of fun. I've been busy building a restaurant and have missed this whole thread and all of you!!!!!!!. I have however managed to read half of the book that this thread initially introduced................very interesting. Off to read some more. Wishing everyone a wonderful weekend!

the character Marie de Saint Clair named after
Alleged Grandmaster of Priory of Sion

Marie de Saint-Clair (1192-1266), daughter of Robert de Saint-Clair and Isabel Levis, became Grand Mistress of the Priory from 1220 to her death (3). She had an affair with Emperor Frederick II and her grandson and his consort, the heirs to the Grail, became the target of a world-wide manhunt

The Cardinal tells of the legend of the Templar Knight who visited the grave of the beautiful virgin and come backs in 9 months and finds a still born child

Marie de Saint Clair dies in childbirth

"We are all vessels of fate== Midwives"
Nostradamus tells her "I thank the gods that prelates of the Church can not marry. For I dare not imagine what line of unholy princes you and he would breed"

She laughed at him
because she probably was with child then

does anyone else think that looks like a bong or just me?

ok then just me

Yes, her writing is excellent, the story draws you in to the times. I really liked this passage. Lori

That sentence made me put the book down, and think. Really think. In fact I concur with most of what Richard quoted as being seminal points of thought, throughout the book.

I also think they way she portrays Nostradamus's politics as being guided by his Jewish heritage rather than by other considerations to be a reflection on present day thought.

Davinho


Now that I look at it
It kinda does



Cannabis sativa from Vienna Dioscurides, 512 A.D.

poor things lookin' a bit wilted...the artist obviously had to sketch it pretty quick before it dried up too much...i reckon some leaves are missing too

Sheila

In the beginning and the end was Notre Dame....she existed before the mountains and the seas came into being , or any living thing
pg 278
The Dreamer of the Vine
Liz Greene

It is all about Our Lady's return

She has never left...............

How true Lori


shall we say Our Lady is sitting at the supper table
where before she was out in the kitchen cooking and cleaning

I finally finished it
It was AWESOME
Your going to love it Lori