Arcadia Discussion Zone

I thought I'd make this a fresh topic, so it wouldn't intrude any further into the Pax/Chi Rho thread. It may seem slightly off-topic, but I think it's worth pursuing a little longer.


I recall one of the founders of the Pagan Federation in Britain saying that Paganism was her religion, and Wicca was her denomination within that religion. That tends to be the attitude of many British Pagans, who are a pretty eclectic bunch. As a writer on New Religious Movements I regard Wicca as an NRM that was founded around 1950, that draws on indigenous pre-Christian beliefs, though not so much attempting to re-create their rituals as inventing them wholesale. The same applies to C20 Druidry (C18-19 Druidry is a different thing, but equally non-authentic). Heathenry is different because it does have the advantage of being based fairly firmly on an old religion.

My understanding from corresponding and talking with American Pagan leaders is that Neo-Paganism there was more bound up with both 1960-70s hippie consciousness (Tim/Otter/Oberon Zell's Church of All Worlds etc) and 1970s-80s feminism (Starhawk etc). But there's also a whole bunch of Pagans in the States (Rhuddlwm ap Gawr's Association of Cymmry Wicca etc) who claim traditional, even hereditary origins for their religion -- though (probably like you) I have a considerable amount of doubt about any such claims!

British Pagans are generally very well-read, and know the work of Pagan academics such as Graham Harvey, Jenny Blain and others -- including of course Prof Ronald Hutton. He's taken apart the well-loved 1970s-1980s belief that Wicca is a genuine recreation of "the Old Path"; he's demonstrated pretty conclusively that the "traditional origins" of Wicca etc are a modern foundation myth -- and Wiccans and other Pagans are perfectly cool with that. I don't know of any British Pagans, for instance, who have any time for Margaret Murray's Witch Cult in Western Europe theory.

There are very few British Pagans, of whatever variety, who claim that they are recreating rituals authentically -- except when they are recreating HOGD rituals from only a century ago.

This is why, although it may seem a side-track, this is actually relevant to this forum -- because of the undoubted links between present-day Neo-Paganism and the OTO and Golden Dawn, and other neo-Rosicrucian orders of the late C19/early C20, which tie in with the C19 French occult scene which ties in with the PoS mythos.

British Pagans? Not so far as I know.

Yes, point well taken ...how can people claim a Jesus-Magdalene bloodline? How can they make claims that a pregnant Magdalene "escaped" to the shores of France days after crucifixion? Where is this stuff coming from? Of course it's directly related to all PoS and RLC esoterica. Prove or disprove just one of those theories, and the entire house of cards falls down.
Shasta

My bad -- I should have said the RLC mythos -- sorry!

I was meaning the group that Saunière may or may not have had connections with -- Emma Calvé and co. In my opinion the evidence seems to suggest that the Parisian esotericists were l’Ordre Kabbalistique de la Rose Croix, founded by Joséphin Péladan and the Marquis Stanislas de Guaita in 1888, based largely on the teachings of Éliphas Lévi. And Lévi's teachings were heavily "borrowed" by the HOGD, and Golden Dawn teachings (both via Crowley and separately) have had a considerable influence on British Neo-Paganism.

Meet the new Druid in Britain at his investiture.

The Archbishop of Canterbury - Rowan Williams

Does he drive a custom Rolls?

Thank you, Roscoe.
This was the Gorsedd of the Bards, one of the C18 or C19 Druid Orders, i.e. romantic and cultural, rather than spiritual and Pagan. They were founded by "Iolo Morganwg" (Edward Williams) in 1792, and are connected with the National Eisteddfod. Nothing whatsoever to do with OBOD and the other C20-21 Pagan Druid Orders. In fact Rowan Williams was careful to respond to Christian critics of the ceremony: "Some people have reached the wrong conclusion about the ceremony. If people had actually looked at the words of the hymns and text used they would have seen a very Christian service."

Well he could have gone much further and said that if one looks at the words in the Egyptian Book of the Dead one will see the Ten Commandments word perfect.

Perhaps it was God simply forwarding them on by e mail to Moses on Sinai

Could you give the parallel texts?

[Egyptian] Book of the Dead and the Ten Commandments

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm

Some historians....have argued that the Ten Commandments originated from ancient Egyptian religion, and postulate that the Biblical Jews borrowed the concept after their Exodus from Egypt. Chapter 125 of the [Egyptian] Book of the Dead (a.k.a. the Papyrus of Ani) includes a list of things to which a man must swear in order to enter the afterlife. These sworn statements bear a remarkable resemblance to the Ten Commandments in their nature and their phrasing.....The Book of the Dead has additional requirements, and, of course, doesn't require worship of Yahweh." 1

The Book of the Dead was written circa 1800 BCE. 2 The Schofield Reference Bible estimates that the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt and the provision of the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai occurred in 1491 BCE., some three centuries later. Thus, many religious liberals, historians, and secularists have concluded that the Hebrew Scripture's Ten Commandments were based on this earlier document, rather than vice-versa.
"Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .
I have not reviled the God.
I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
I have not done what the God abominates . . .
I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
I have not caused anyone's suffering . . .
I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage...
I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
I have not kept cattle away from the God's property.
I have not blocked the God at his processions. 5

Thanks, Shasta.

Hardly "the Ten Commandments word perfect" that Roscoe asserts, simply a list of moral statements. Similar, yes, but by no means identical.

But would it make any difference if they were identical? Unless one believes that Yahweh actually did hand down the commandments to Moses on Sinai, they must have come from somewhere. The religion of the Hebrews, like all other religions, absorbed influences from their neighbours. Christianity ditto. I don't have a problem with that.

Hardly a well known language - Heiroglyphs.

The book of the dead are instructions for the afterlife. The speaker is saying that he/she hasn't done any of those things INCLUDING the Ten stolen by Moses.

All religions borrow from their predecessors. What's the problem?

Even St Paul does. Christians will be familiar with "put on the whole armour of God" in Ephesians 6:13-17:

When I was doing some research on Zoroastrianism I found this in Menog-i Khrad ("The Spirit of Wisdom") chapter 43:

Exactly the same concept, even if the details are different. And why not? It's a good analogy.

DVB, I found more similarities between Zoroastrian and early Hebrews such as the shared concept of "God" as light...represented by the sacred fires. No religion evolved alone and independent...you are right about that.

Wouldn't Hebrews have understood heiroglyphs after living in Egypt and being part of that culture and learning for hundreds of years?

Nice guess. You'll go far on this forum.

Hieroglyphs were not a language, but a way of writing a language. There were Hittite (or Luwian or Palaic?) hieroglyphs as well, and a subset of the Egyptian hieroglyphs were used to write Meroitic.

Evidence that at least some Hebrews could read Egyptian comes from the Psalm which apparently duplicates one of the hymns to Aten (I'll need to check on this before I'm certain however).

As counter-evidence, one could refer to the use of Babylonian as the diplomatic language used between Egypt and the Canaanite client city-states.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

The consensus regarding the Ten Commandments is that they fit a suzereign-vassal treaty form, most especially that found in northern Syria during about the 8th century if I recall correctly. This would then be a treaty between YHWH and the Hebrew people.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

Jethro and the Midianites, he got them from there

Jethro, also known as Reuel, is called a priest of Midian and became father-in-law of Moses. He is recorded as living in Midian, a territory stretching from east of the Dead Sea south onto the Sinai.

Jethro's daughter, Zipporah, became Moses's wife after Moses had fled Egypt, having killed an Egyptian who was beating a Hebrew slave. Moses is said to have worked as a shepherd for Jethro for 40 years before returning to Egypt to lead the Hebrews to Canaan, the "promised land". It was Jethro that encouraged Moses to appoint others to share in the burden of ministry to the Jewish nation by allowing others to help in the judgement of smaller matters coming before him.

Yitro is the name of one of the 54 weekly Torah readings or Parshiot (Exodus 18:1-20:23). In it, Jethro advises Moses to establish a system of courts to relieve Moses of the crushing burden of judging all disputes. The portion also contains the Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments didn't come from God

Jethro and the Midianites? While not impossible, it certainly seems very unlikely.
This particular treaty-form was connected with the Assyrians, who weren't involved in the Levant until about the 7th century.

By the way, Roscoe, do you have anything to say about my attempts to answer your challenge?

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

Sorry what challenge? You have to write things clearly for me, I only see red on here these days.

The challenge was not to me, nor was it in this thread.
The challenge was in PAX CHI RHO, made on 18 Feb 2009 11:57 am, and my attempted answer was posted at 18 Feb 2009 5:58 pm

You made the same challenge in Pseudo-History Sells at 18 Feb 2009 11:40 am, and I again attempted a reply at 18 Feb 2009 7:33 pm

Getting about time for me to head home for dinner, so I look forward to further interchange in either of the above groups or via message. Your response would allow me to find weaknesses my own approach, so I am definitely courting a response.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

Sorry you're going to have to repeat what the challenge said, I can't find it

I can't find it either...

Well, yes, I think this is a point we're all making, in different ways!
(Also, have you ever tried counting the "Ten Commandments"?)

Shasta, there's a lot in the religion of the Hebrew people (which became Judaism), and thus later Christianity and Islam, which can be traced back to the Zoroastrians: monotheistic good god plus evil adversary, and belief in the afterlife, including resurrection, heaven and hell.

It's also beyond doubt that the still-evolving Hebrew religion picked up a lot from the time in captivity in Babylon. Religions borrow. Where's the problem?