'Real or Imaginary’ No. 4: 3D Shepherds?

M Norton · **Posted:** 01 Dec 2008 2:30 pm

No source documents.
No argument.

Dragging in the murder of Gelis into your scenario also needs proof.

roscoe · **Joined:** 02 Dec 2006 3:44 pm **Posts:** 6964

M Norton wrote:

No source documents.
No argument.

Dragging in the murder of Gelis into your scenario also needs proof.

Gelis was murdered and an inventory of his possesions showed that he also had more money than a back woods Languedoc priest should have had.

Explain please?

M Norton · **Posted:** 01 Dec 2008 2:36 pm

roscoe wrote:

Gelis was murdered and an inventory of his possesions showed that he also had more money than a back woods Languedoc priest should have had.

There is absolutely no evidence to link this with Berenger Sauniere.
Proper historical research requires primary source documents.
No sources, no arguments.

roscoe · **Joined:** 02 Dec 2006 3:44 pm **Posts:** 6964

M Norton wrote:

roscoe wrote:

Gelis was murdered and an inventory of his possesions showed that he also had more money than a back woods Languedoc priest should have had.

There is absolutely no evidence to link this with Berenger Sauniere.
Proper historical research requires primary source documents.
No sources, no arguments.

OK fine let's not link it then.

Why was Gelis wealthy for a back woods Languedoc priest?

Was he trafficking in masses?

M Norton · **Posted:** 01 Dec 2008 3:09 pm

There's no documentation on Gelis.

jb1717 · **Joined:** 15 Oct 2006 3:58 am **Posts:** 2935

M Norton wrote:

jb1717 wrote:

I guess that explains why the shepherd is pointing to the letter "D" in the first version of the painting. The tree in the background of the second version could be a laurel tree too, which is associated with Daphnis. Being the son of Hermes, he could be a link to Hermeticism.

Yes, now prove it.
Or are you going to admit for once that you were daydreaming again.

Yeah sure, right after you prove your name is Norton and not Smith. Until then, I suggest you stop demanding that anyone on this forum prove anything. I don't have to prove a damn thing to you, Sybil. Photo ID and birth certificate required.

M Norton · **Posted:** 01 Dec 2008 3:21 pm

You've never stopped daydreaming, and you know that too well.

jb1717 · **Joined:** 15 Oct 2006 3:58 am **Posts:** 2935

Maybe, but at least I'm not Sybil.

roscoe · **Joined:** 02 Dec 2006 3:44 pm **Posts:** 6964

M Norton wrote:

There's no documentation on Gelis.

You know I do believe that amounts to some kind of answer in your mind.

M Norton · **Posted:** 01 Dec 2008 6:16 pm

If there's no documentation, there's no theory to build upon.

roscoe · **Joined:** 02 Dec 2006 3:44 pm **Posts:** 6964

M Norton wrote:

If there's no documentation, there's no theory to build upon.

He just got rich by magic then?

M Norton · **Posted:** 01 Dec 2008 6:29 pm

No, not by "magic" - Sauniere left behind thousands of pages of his account books demonstrating that he obtained his money from the selling of masses, leaving behind names, addresses and correspondence.

Here's a potted summary:
http://www.mysteresdevendee.fr/renneslechateau.htm

roscoe · **Joined:** 02 Dec 2006 3:44 pm **Posts:** 6964

M Norton wrote:

No, not by "magic" - Sauniere left behind thousands of pages of his account books demonstrating that he obtained his money from the selling of masses, leaving behind names, addresses and correspondence.

Here's a potted summary:
http://www.mysteresdevendee.fr/renneslechateau.htm

Why would Sauniere do that if it was illegal?

As for Gelis

Did he or did he not traffick in masses?

jb1717 · **Joined:** 15 Oct 2006 3:58 am **Posts:** 2935

What a great idea for making a quick buck. I just did a search for "masses for sale" and there was none. All you have to do is get ordained as a priest from a quickie ordination company and then make a program to automatically generate a mass after people enter their personal data and subject of the mass desired. I'll call it Masses for the Masses. $1.99, shop around, you can't beat that.

M Norton · **Posted:** 01 Dec 2008 9:38 pm

America is the place to live if you want to become a priest making a fortune from selling masses.

TCP · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2008 12:19 am

roscoe wrote:

Don't you just love the way TCP started with the phrase "Let's get our facts straight shall we" and then proceeded not to.

"I'm an Arcadia ego" originator TCP

At least I admit my errors, Roscoe.

By the way, Virgil's 5th Eclogue is still the inspiration for Poussin's Shepherds of Arcadia, and your information on Columbus is still erroneous.

TCP

TCP · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2008 12:24 am

roscoe wrote:

Why would Sauniere do that if it was illegal?

Accepting donations for a mass to be said has never been illegal. Accepting donations for more masses than a priest can actually perform constitutes simony, or trafficking.

TCP

jb1717 · **Joined:** 15 Oct 2006 3:58 am **Posts:** 2935

So now we know what was really supposed to be inscribed on the tomb, not "Et In Arcadia Ego" but "I, Daphnis in the woods, from hence in fame
Am to the stars exalted, guardian once
Of a fair flock, myself more fair than they"

What in that phrase could be a clue to the solution of the painting? The word "stars". And no, Norton, it's not a daydream and no, Norton, I don't have to prove it.

roscoe · **Joined:** 02 Dec 2006 3:44 pm **Posts:** 6964

TCP wrote:

roscoe wrote:

Don't you just love the way TCP started with the phrase "Let's get our facts straight shall we" and then proceeded not to.

"I'm an Arcadia ego" originator TCP

At least I admit my errors, Roscoe.

By the way, Virgil's 5th Eclogue is still the inspiration for Poussin's Shepherds of Arcadia, and your information on Columbus is still erroneous.

TCP

I don't make errors.

Columbus acknowledged Rene d'Anjou in his journal as the man who gave him his first ships commission. So when I said that Columbus was a friend of Rene d'Anjou I was absolutely spot on.

roscoe · **Joined:** 02 Dec 2006 3:44 pm **Posts:** 6964

TCP wrote:

roscoe wrote:

Why would Sauniere do that if it was illegal?

Accepting donations for a mass to be said has never been illegal. Accepting donations for more masses than a priest can actually perform constitutes simony, or trafficking.

TCP

So let me get this straight then. The evidence for the large amounts of mass trafficking comes from Sauniere himself. Why would Sauniere make meticulous records of his own illegal activities?

Why would Sauniere deliberately incriminate himself?

roscoe · **Joined:** 02 Dec 2006 3:44 pm **Posts:** 6964

Roger wrote:

TCP wrote:

roscoe wrote:

Why would Sauniere do that if it was illegal?

Accepting donations for a mass to be said has never been illegal. Accepting donations for more masses than a priest can actually perform constitutes simony, or trafficking.

TCP

Exactly.
In Sauniere's time, Canon Law dictated that a priest could say no more than 3 masses per day, and only 2 of these could be remunerated. Masses were then "priced" at 1 to 2 Francs apiece. Hence, why would a religious Order, fully cognizant of Canon Law, be sending - on a regular monthly basis - amounts exceeding the mass allowance to an obscure little priest in the back of beyond?

Psmith Journalist's answer is "because he asked them to"... :wink:

That's exactly right. We know the levels of Sauniere's supposed activities from his own records. Descadailles makes a jump in logic, he knows that Sauniere was ACCUSED of trafficking in masses and therefore assumes that the income that Sauniere received from these Religious Orders were for saying masses.

Smith likes for us not to include Gelis' wealth into this equation. Gelis, Sauniere's murdered, rich neighbour - nothing suspicious there :wink:

DVB · **Joined:** 20 Jul 2008 4:03 pm **Posts:** 683

TCP wrote:

Accepting donations for more masses than a priest can actually perform constitutes simony, or trafficking.

Correction. Simony is the buying or selling of an ecclesiastical benefice, i.e. a position in the church. It's paying money to someone to buy, for example, the position of bishop. It's got nothing to do with selling more masses than you can say, which is certainly a disciplinary offence, and which still goes on today in a slightly different form, the selling of mass cards.

M Norton · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2008 12:22 pm

roscoe wrote:

Why would Sauniere deliberately incriminate himself?

Why don't you know the basic facts of the subject matter that you are interested in and have devoted a website to? That's the answer you should be addressing.

Sauniere did not deliberately incriminate himself - he kept his account books hidden safely away under his bed - and took his bogus "List of Donors" to the ecclesiastical Trial.

M Norton · **Posted:** 02 Dec 2008 12:25 pm

Roger wrote:

Psmith Journalist's answer is "because he asked them to"... :wink:

"Roger" - devoted follower of Societe Perillos and "Isaac Ben Jacob" - has his own conspiracy theories to promote ("What Berenger Sauniere discovered at RLC") - therefore it should not be too "surprising" to see that he is constantly misinterpreting the evidence relating to Sauniere.

jb1717 · **Joined:** 15 Oct 2006 3:58 am **Posts:** 2935

If only Sauniere had been smart enough to throw the notebook away, maybe it wouldn't be all over the Internet right now. Why'd he keep the evidence laying around all that time after the crime? maybe that was fake too and he expected somebody to find it. Under the bed isn't exactly a place nobody would think to look.

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'Real or Imaginary’ No. 4: 3D Shepherds?

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