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 Post subject: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2011 8:19 pm 
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Is there any evidence that the 'crista' was in Saunière's possession? What form would this evidence take?


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2011 9:14 pm 
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The scenario is like this:

The connection is through Cherisey .... one has to decide if you accept Cherisey's premise or not. Why would Cherisey be talking about the Labarum, the Gold Cross of Solomon and linking it in some way to Rennes le Chateau?

If you think this connection through Cherisey is not valid, then you cannot accept the parchments and all the other paraphanalia attached to Sauniere through Cherisey and Plantard.

Cherisey doesnt really say anything explicitly. All we know are certain elements are alluded to time after time. One has to decide if there is a pattern or not.
Why does Cherisey go on and on about the Labarum?
One has to decide whether the Gold Cross of Solomon is really what IBJ thinks it is - ie the so callled *crista*.

The Gold Cross certainly seems to have existed .... but i have seen no pictures of it. I am interested in this as an archaeological relic ...i dont know if it is what IBJ thinks it is.

That will only be done by proper research etc.

The worst disfavour done to the relic is all the hocus pocus attached to it.

There is no evidence of a 'cult of the dead' that Sauniere was part of.

There is also no explicit reference linking it all to sauniere that i can see.

Thats not really the point though at this stage. I think the point is to look at plantard and cherisey and investigate what they wrote about.

If you think what they said is all crap - then its a moot point for you guys ..lol


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2011 10:37 pm 
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Thats the most sensible post on the subject of the Crista for months.
Lets leave all the indulgent mumbo jumbo behind and start talking about an archeological artifact not some DIY Psychopomp kit !
The reality is that the best thing that can be said about de Cheriseys arcane allusions is that they are circumstantial to say the least. However its equally not possible to dismiss it out of hand. What we need is some supporting evidence, some triangulation. This does not include countless repetitions of roman history or more pictures of coins.
If Sauniere had it and there is evidence to support this apart from de Cheriseys work then lets see it.
Its hard to decide whether the cloud being generated around the Crista is one of mystery or misdirection however it seems that its clear that its being intentionally done to obscure rather than clarify the issues.
Question is why?
Lets cut through the fog, if this mythical item is out there then lets get it into a museum to get it examined by historians and scientists not religious authorities.

TD

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E. P. Thompson, 'The Poverty of Theory


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2011 10:55 pm 
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Jean Vié wrote:
Is there any evidence that the 'crista' was in Saunière's possession? What form would this evidence take?


Good Question Mr V!

Well, it will be diaries, pictures or other explicit evidence including what happened to it after 1917.
It won't include Archangels and days out on the River (Styx) :wink:
Or Albino hitmen!

TD

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" The evidence must be interrogated by minds trained in a discipline of attentive disbelief"
E. P. Thompson, 'The Poverty of Theory


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2011 11:01 pm 
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Its hard to decide whether the cloud being generated around the Crista is one of mystery or misdirection however it seems that its clear that its being intentionally done to obscure rather than clarify the issues.
Question is why?


Why have you decided that this cloud is 'misdirection'? Because of soemthing to do with Roger? And why intentional? And if so does it really matter?

After all, the cat is, to say the least, out of the bag now.

It was IBJ who wrote the articles. It is his theories that we are investigating.
All his theories rest on what Cherisey was talking about essentially.

This is the crux of the problem - how to track an archaeological relic over nearly 2000 years. Now i know this inst impossible. Of course it isnt possible for a relic to survive this long. Archaeologists turn them up every day even older.

And i know some people say they have seen the relic. But even that isnt the issue. How are you going to know you ar elooking at the right thing?

Is it the original?

It is sucha minefield that its nigh on impossible.

However, that is not really the fun point. The fun point is learning about what our ancestors did before us and why.

Its kinda about our history.

Who would have thought it?

Because i have been on the other end of people calling me a liar and a hoaxer over the Hammott tomb and Sauniere papers, i have every sympathy with others, who seem genuine enough, but are being painted in the same way.

I am not a liar or hoaxer, so why should they be? Because i know the reasons why things cannot be said or revealed at this time regarding the Hammott otmb, i accept that IBJ and co. have their reasons too. And please note, i am not saying this to ridicule IBJ and his theories, or make people think that his research should be on a par with the papers found in a landscape (which people have dismissed as a great joke, and which i have not).


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2011 1:49 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
Its hard to decide whether the cloud being generated around the Crista is one of mystery or misdirection however it seems that its clear that its being intentionally done to obscure rather than clarify the issues.
Question is why?


Why have you decided that this cloud is 'misdirection'? Because of soemthing to do with Roger? And why intentional? And if so does it really matter?

After all, the cat is, to say the least, out of the bag now.

It was IBJ who wrote the articles. It is his theories that we are investigating.
All his theories rest on what Cherisey was talking about essentially.

This is the crux of the problem - how to track an archaeological relic over nearly 2000 years. Now i know this inst impossible. Of course it isnt possible for a relic to survive this long. Archaeologists turn them up every day even older.

And i know some people say they have seen the relic. But even that isnt the issue. How are you going to know you ar elooking at the right thing?

Is it the original?

It is sucha minefield that its nigh on impossible.

However, that is not really the fun point. The fun point is learning about what our ancestors did before us and why.

Its kinda about our history.

Who would have thought it?

Because i have been on the other end of people calling me a liar and a hoaxer over the Hammott tomb and Sauniere papers, i have every sympathy with others, who seem genuine enough, but are being painted in the same way.

I am not a liar or hoaxer, so why should they be? Because i know the reasons why things cannot be said or revealed at this time regarding the Hammott otmb, i accept that IBJ and co. have their reasons too. And please note, i am not saying this to ridicule IBJ and his theories, or make people think that his research should be on a par with the papers found in a landscape (which people have dismissed as a great joke, and which i have not).


You recently asked many of your above questions on the crista controversy thread,I tried to anwser them in my opinion,but I got no responses,this is what makes progress difficult,the lack of working together and communicating.I can only assume you read my replies and felt my views were not worth while to respond to,understandable.


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2011 2:07 am 
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I can only assume you read my replies and felt my views were not worth while to respond to,understandable.

No, my dear, not that at all.

Have been busy of late. Will look over what you wrote ... but you know, i dont know any more than you do :)

I only have my views on stuff, which really aint saying much ...


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2011 6:28 am 
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bergeredearcadie wrote:
The connection is through Cherisey .... one has to decide if you accept Cherisey's premise or not. Why would Cherisey be talking about the Labarum, the Gold Cross of Solomon and linking it in some way to Rennes le Chateau?

If you think this connection through Cherisey is not valid, then you cannot accept the parchments and all the other paraphanalia attached to Sauniere through Cherisey and Plantard.

Cherisey doesnt really say anything explicitly. All we know are certain elements are alluded to time after time. One has to decide if there is a pattern or not.

Why does Cherisey go on and on about the Labarum?


Extract from 'The Key to the Sacred Pattern by Henry Lincoln describing a meeting with Philippe de Cherisey. (pp154)

Quote:
"The day is ending, but it is fine. De Cherisey expresses a desire to take a stroll and a lengthy preambulation end on a bench in the Tuileries Gardens. He is still regaling me with well told - and often very funny - anecdotes. But I have more on my mind than entertainment. We are getting on well and the atmosphere is friendly. At last, with time passing and nothing to lose, I decide to put my request baldly. 'Can I take another look at the parchment photographs?' With only minimal hesitation, he opens his briefcase and hands them to me. 'Why add the marks' I ask 'To amuse the laity' he replied 'But why?' I insist. He shrugs 'I'm an entertainer.' It is clear that I am to get no straight answers. But - perhaps simply because it was to hand - he adds another fragment. Picking a few sheets from his case, he says: 'I'm writing an explanation of the codes. I'll send you a copy. You'll be amused' But I am never to see it. 1 Nor am I ever to get any closer to the 'parchment originals'. Sadly Philippe de Cherisey died suddenly in July 1985.

1 There is reason to suspect that this document may have been part of the haul of stolen Priory papers' which figured in the Chaumeil imbroglio"


From a statement in a forum on September 2006 by Rennes researcher PAUL J SAUSSEZ

Quote:
"I spent the last week-end in RLC [Rennes-le-Chateau] where I met Henry Lincoln and Dr Paul Rouelle, and there was much debate over "Pierre et Papiers". [Stone and Paper]
Dr Rouelle, who was a close friend of de Chérisey, told me that "Pierre et Papier" is unreliable, inasmuch as Chérisey would never have trusted Chaumeil, whom he disliked, with a confession to be published after his death.
Dr Rouelle thinks that "Pierre et Papier" is -once again- a prank played by Chérisey on Chaumeil, who pestered him for an "explanation".

Both Lincoln and Rouelle agree that Chérisey manufactured (in French: "confectionné") the parchments but did not in fact invent the deciphering code...
I confess being at a complete loss at this point, unless of course Dr Rouelle was unwittingly duped by his own buddy..."


Here we have several passages from Philippe de Chèrisey's book CIRCUIT where we find him reaching for an answer.

Quote:
"The presence of Teniers in the message indicates a path to follow from the church of RLC to the church of Saint-Luc, a village further north. This is inferred from two anecdotes concerning the painter, the robe of his procurator, his trade association. Teniers' last painting shows a procurator wearing a black robe. When asked about his health, the ageing Teniers said he had burnt his last tooth to get the ivory black of the robe. In his youth, Teniers held the position of master of St Luke's brotherhood in Antwerp, which gathered all painters.
Some details in the church play on this:


a/ at the foot of Mary Magdalene, there is a skull with one tooth missing and a cross engraved on top


b/ the procurator of the church is Pontius Pilatus, shown in the first station of the Cross. In Rennes, the procurator washes his hands in the white basin held up by a black boy.


The village of Saint-Luc and its church are at the foot of La Mort mountain as is the cross on the skull at the foot of the Magdalene. Since the first station of the Cross leads to Golgotha, i.e. the mountain of death, we therefore have an itinerary from the church of RLC to the church of Saint-Luc. One could object that this itinerary is contrary to Teniers' biography, who went from youth to old age, along with the procurator when he was admitted to St Luke's brotherhood. In fact, one must travel the path backwards, since Teniers is duke of Antwerp."


Image
Johann Friedrich Overbeck, Stamp of the Brotherhood of St. Luke, 1809. Etched vignette. Bibliothek der Hansestadt Lübeck, Overbeck Nachlass, VII, I:I. Reproduced in Howitt 1886, vol. 1, between pp. 100 and 101

The St Luke Brotherhood was started in the 19th century, Teniers was a 17th century painter.

De Cherisey didn't know what Sauniere was up to, he was guessing like everyone else.

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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2011 2:20 pm 
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Quote:
"The presence of Teniers in the message indicates a path to follow from the church of RLC to the church of Saint-Luc, a village further north. This is inferred from two anecdotes concerning the painter, the robe of his procurator, his trade association. Teniers' last painting shows a procurator wearing a black robe. When asked about his health, the ageing Teniers said he had burnt his last tooth to get the ivory black of the robe. In his youth, Teniers held the position of master of St Luke's brotherhood in Antwerp, which gathered all painters.




Quote:
The St Luke Brotherhood was started in the 19th century, Teniers was a 17th century painter.



Possibly some mixed up faternities here,or maybe not.Teniers was admitted as a "master" amongst the Guild of Saint Luke in 1632,which was a group of artists(painters,sculptors,gilders,book binder,engravers) first mentioned in 1382,a document does exist listing the members as early as 1453.In 1644 Teniers was chosen to preside over the guild,haven be chosen to do so by the common council of Antwerp.It was Teniers idea for an "Academy of Fine Arts" a seperation of artists,he wanted painters and sculptors to have a seperate group outside the Guild of St Luke.It never happened in his lifetime,not until 1773.


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2011 7:45 am 
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'Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?'

Due to the total lack of response from those that say "Oooh! look at me I know something you don't he he", and after their introduction to the word evidence, the answer to this question has to be an emphatic

NO

News just in.

Book sales plummet

The advice from me is 'write a novel instead' there you can legitimately make things up.

Next?

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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 10:40 am 
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There is no mention of the crista at all in 'the book'...


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 10:59 am 
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I think that Hosni's stated aim was to manipulate the Forum sufficiently to render the publication
of another book unviable.
'The Rise' seemed to be the primer...........
Great job dontcha think ? I mean, no ones talking about the Crista any more are they ?

As a democratic community how about a poll as to whether we should move all Crista related items off
the RLC section and into the 'Theories' hinterland ?

Any thoughts?

TD :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 11:12 am 
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Thomas D. wrote:

Any thoughts?

TD :lol:


yes....it doesnt matter where the subject is placed, you will always behave in this provocative manner as you dont seem able to ignore the subject that irritates you so much.
There are a lot of subjects on this thread that dont have anything at all to do with RLC, why not move all those as well?


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 11:34 am 
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tingra wrote:
Thomas D. wrote:

Any thoughts?

TD :lol:


yes....it doesnt matter where the subject is placed, you will always behave in this provocative manner as you dont seem able to ignore the subject that irritates you so much.
There are a lot of subjects on this thread that dont have anything at all to do with RLC, why not move all those as well?


Darling,
Is this provocative ? The best way to shut me up is to post some proof that Sauniere had the Crista! Not something from de Cherisey or from the fourth century. No subtle hints from discredited 'experts' designed to mislead us away from the family heirloom.
Just some good honest 19th/20thC checkable evidence.
Irritated? Moi? not at all ! The whole campaign of misdirection and vituperation smacks of desperation and is redolent of the final days of the 'Diary', another 'shameful' object!

Look on the brightside Tingra, You'll get your vote like every one else !

TD :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 11:58 am 
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Thomas D. wrote:
tingra wrote:
Thomas D. wrote:

Any thoughts?

TD :lol:


yes....it doesnt matter where the subject is placed, you will always behave in this provocative manner as you dont seem able to ignore the subject that irritates you so much.
There are a lot of subjects on this thread that dont have anything at all to do with RLC, why not move all those as well?


Darling,
Is this provocative ? The best way to shut me up is to post some proof that Sauniere had the Crista! Not something from de Cherisey or from the fourth century. No subtle hints from discredited 'experts' designed to mislead us away from the family heirloom.
Just some good honest 19th/20thC checkable evidence.
Irritated? Moi? not at all ! The whole campaign of misdirection and vituperation smacks of desperation and is redolent of the final days of the 'Diary', another 'shameful' object!

Look on the brightside Tingra, You'll get your vote like every one else !

TD :lol:


I am not trying to shut you up TD……please feel free to continue :D
I was only pointing out the obvious in that no matter where the subject is raised you will continue in this manner, that’s all :lol: :lol:
To be honest with you though, the more YOU disparage the subject the more YOU keep it in the public eye so to speak which is a bit silly when you consider the subject so abhorrent or shameful dont ya think?.....just a thought :D


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 12:31 pm 
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Looks like you got your inferential style from Sheila!
As you may have noticed I always put the word 'shameful' in inverted commas to allude to its original use
by 'Roger' when he/she was bragging about how much he/she knew about the Crista.
I'm thrilled that you've been good enough to draw attention to that, looks like you share some misgivings about this whole farago.
Dont worry, it'll be our secret! :wink: It cannot be easy to shift your position away from so high a profile one!

I wouldn't dream of doing something so bold as to 'disparage' the subject as you suggest. I believe my posts call, quite consistently, for those who insist on talking about 'it' to offer some kind of actual evidence that Sauniere ever had 'it'.
There's certainly a place for the wild imaginings of Team Crista as to the motivation of Constantine, Suger et al but most have probably concluded that in light of the lack of evidence it doesn't belong here but in 'Theories' or 'Artifacts'.

I suspect that the reason you all find my posts quite so emotive is that despite the blinkers you can see that the position you have been put in is untenable.
Like the 'Tomb' and the 'Diary' the subject of the Crista is still some way off proved. But, look on the bright side, by keeping it in the public eye I'm doing you an invaluable service. When the owner finally grows some and posts a pic your triumph will be so much sweeter.
Dontcha think ?
TD :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 12:41 pm 
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okaaaaaaaay :lol:
onwards and upwards TD, onwards and upwards :D


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 1:05 pm 
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tingra wrote:
okaaaaaaaay :lol:
onwards and upwards TD, onwards and upwards :D


Indeed!
There's no need to thank me now, a foot note in the book will do ! :lol:
BTW Strictly entre nous............
My new best friend in Normandy has promised me a few pics to clarify a few things. If they do actually get through I'LL
try and post them for general consumption.!
TD :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 1:08 pm 
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ahhh i see you have been following Williams drivil :lol:
i look forward to them, thanks in anticipation :D


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 1:19 pm 
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tingra wrote:
ahhh i see you have been following Williams drivil :lol:
i look forward to them, thanks in anticipation :D


DRIVIL(sic)? :lol:

I spend a lot of time reading all kinds of drivel from all kinds of people! :lol:

Who is williams?

TD

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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 1:47 pm 
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Quote:
ahhh i see you have been following Williams drivil
i look forward to them, thanks in anticipation

I take it that you don't mean William of Normandy :lol:
Regards
Nic


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 2:01 pm 
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BULLDOGNIC wrote:
Quote:
ahhh i see you have been following Williams drivil
i look forward to them, thanks in anticipation

I take it that you don't mean William of Normandy :lol:
Regards
Nic


Not sure we can accuse him of drivil(sic) at this late stage!

Who were you referring to Tingra and what has he/she to do with my mate Aluns holiday snaps?

TD

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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 2:34 pm 
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Williams is one of our French friends who has many weird and wonderful stories about Normandy. Think along the lines of Edmond Dantes, Pierre Picaud and Jacques Peuchet :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Was the 'crista' in the possession of Saunière?
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 3:59 pm 
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tingra wrote:
Williams is one of our French friends who has many weird and wonderful stories about Normandy. Think along the lines of Edmond Dantes, Pierre Picaud and Jacques Peuchet :lol: :lol:


Sounds Nice!

TD :lol:

Edited to add;
When you say 'OUR' friends is that the Royal 'we' or the team Crista 'we'?
:wink:

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 Post subject: Jeweled artifacts
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2011 2:53 am 
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Would the Crista have been hidden at Limoux during the Revolution?

The Crista topic was started by Seeker down on Misc. years ago. The

Pax Chi Rho thread was up here in the RLC section. When I found that great

Constantine medallion, I began a Crista thread on RLC for more obvious access,

so if you have a problem with the Crista thread`s location, don`t go after the

original Crista scholars. Here are some jeweled artifacts for the Crista seekers.

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