Arcadia Discussion Zone

Hi Raven and All,

I am only too pleased for you to use my photos on your website.

If you want me to take further photos and constructiob details later this month, I can do it for all.

I am a builder by profession...and have studied history of architecture, so I know what I am looking for !!

As to the remaining stonework, it is quite well cut and much of the base work is still present as can be seen in my photos that Andy kindly posted for me.

I would doubt if it is Visigoth, as this period of occupation dates to far back.

I am told that the castles/ruins in the area were all linked by line of site, being a protection system of defense.

There is a great local Cathar museum that I went to...I recall...I think...it is in the Village of Arque...but I'm not sure...I find out again on my trip to the area.

This issue has got me going...I might make it a subject of my next crime thriller novel...could be fun doing all of the research.

I just wrote a crime thriller novel aroung the Noble Qu'ran of al Andalus, tied up with Islamic terrorism. If anyone would like a synopsis of the novel...only too pleased to oblige.

Cheers for now

Colin Boucher

A correspondent very kindly sent me a scanned image from a fairly old 1:25,000-scale IGN map (2347 Ouest / Quillan), and it does indeed indicate a ruin at La Vialasse: that of a mill (moulin). Still no indication, however, of a ruined castle (Wisigothic or otherwise).


Regards,

David.

Hi David,

Yes 'Le Moulin' does exist, however it dates from the period of La Vialasse Village.

It is now occupied, having been renovated and extended as a residence and that is where we stay when we go to France. Even though we bunk in the cottage at the base of the ruins...seen in the photos.

I have photographs of 'Le Moulin'.

Cheers

Colin Boucher

Not to be rude or anything, but what exactly is the point of all this? Castle ruins are not uncommon in southern France. If this one was built in Cathar times then it obviously couldn't have been positioned as part of a geometry involving such later structures as Ch. de Blanchefort. Nor has it ever been shown that the Cathars positioned their structures geometrically. What's the perceived significance of this ruin? Maybe the locals keep it "secret" to prevent a lot of tourist activity in their peaceful little village. Is it thought that the later non-Cathar structures were aligned with this because it may have been seen to represent the Ark of Noah, which is also a Masonic symbol? Or perhaps the constellation Argo Navis, which is linked with the bright star Canopus, the "Star of Osiris", and also the tale of Jason and the Golden Fleece.

Not as rude as sometimes

France is littered with ruines but not all are this close to many of the places of our interest. It's just interesting for me to see what comes back after posting it. I am sure someone WILL find a geometric fit somewhere with this, they always do with all the other places on the site. Sometimes putting things on display triggers people to share legends, folk tales etc.

Or maybe someone will show up that can say with any kind of certainty that it is templar, cathar, visigoth, carolingian, French..?

Rgds | Raven

Hi JB. Ya, fair question for sure.

For me, the thread is interesting because of the reference Jules Verne makes to La Vialasse. The famous French writer, author of the books Around the World in Eighty Days and Twenty Thousand Leagues Under The Sea, appears to have been inspired by the legends of treasure in the region. Verne, who many believe was an initiate of various secret societies, is believed to have encoded clues about the Rennes-le-Château mystery in several of his novels.

The title of Verne’s Clovis d’Ardentor, suggests inside knowledge. It translates as ‘the Visigoth gold of Clovis and his deposed decedents’. The decedents Verne refers to are none other than the Lords of Rennes-le-Château, the Counts of the Razes. In Clovis d’Ardentor, Verne introduces a character by the name of Captain Bugarach, which of course is the name of a peak near Rennes-le-Château with a long history of local esoteric importance...

Andrew

I'm not sure that's there's any perceived significance; it's just mildly interesting.

My geometry reference was meant ironically, unless your implication is that no castle anywhere can be of any possible interest to anyone unless it can be shown to have some geometric subtext. Which I'm sure it isn't.

Incidentally, your contention that the possible geometric positioning of structures in the area necessarily post-dates the construction of Blanchefort, etc. greatly intrigues me, since I've always assumed we're talking about something far older, but that's a different subject for a different thread.

Back to La Vialasse and JV, what prompted my interest in the first place was Michel Lamy's interpretation of Clovis Dardentor - the name of which has Merovingian connotations (King Clovis, and the "ardent shoot") - in which he references, via the name of a character, the mountain of Bugarach. The character is a sea captain, and so the boat shaped castle ruins of Vialasse, which point towards the mountain, and various other things in the story, are taken to form part of a series of clues about the mystery of RLC. My reading is that Bugarach is the significant site, rather than La Vialasse, given that the "boat" is pointing towards it. Hopefully, therefore, this hamlet will be left in peace. I'd feel awful if I inadvertently stimulated the wrong sort of interest. Lamy wrote his book in 1984, by the way, and I've only recently read an English translation, so this has all been out there for a while.

Will be out of the loop for a bit, so look forward to catching up with any further info in the future. Have enjoyed all the contributions so far.

Sorry, that got posted while I was writing the above. Paints a fuller picture and makes the novel title more interesting still.

Lamy's book very interesting, by the way, although it astonishingly contains virtually no biographical detail on Verne at all, other than his death and burial. I don't think it even gives his date or place of birth. Got very little sense of the man, from reading the book, which was disappointing, but the interpretations and arguments were fascinating.

Verne certainly seems to have known something about the mystery of RLC, and one of the few impressions of him that one did glean from Lamy's book is that something seemed to make him insular and unhappy in his later years. Makes you wonder.

Another mention of the area by Jules Verne which shows his appreciation of its landscape - in "La Geographie de la France", (1867) p82, he talks of the Corbieres-Orientales, and says that the high peaks of this area, such as the Puy-de-Bugarach (1263m), and the Pic de Mosset (2400m) make this region "une des plus pittoresques de la France".
Nicole

I read here http://www.satellitediscoveries.com/art ... ennes.html that Verne's Journey to the Center of the Earth was inspired by Bugarach. It's set in Iceland, but you can see how the basic idea could have come from Bugarach.

Quote;

"In a strange series of coincidences I had the opportunity to visit one of the most mysteries places on Earth, Rennes-le-Château France on 4 separate occasions from 2002-2004. The first time I visited France I was sent to a strange, rock feature called 'Pas de la Roque' about 2 miles from Rennes-le-Château in the South of France. The translation in English is 'not of the castles' although the locals referred to it as the 'step of the rock'. It varied in width approximately 8-15 feet and continued on the landscape for about a mile or more and originated from several large mounds, 'Pech de la Roque' translated as 'hill of the castles', most of the ruin was buried under the large hill beneath thousands of years of dirt and vegetation. Parts of another section may be present near Mt. Bugarach. Mt. Bugarach, known by geologists as an ancient, dormant volcano was the inspiration for the Jules Verne book, Journey to the Center of the Earth and the locals told some interesting myths about giants within the surrounding mountains. Jules Verne was supposedly a member of the Priory of Zion along with a list of geniuses and accomplished men including Leonardo Da Vinci. "

"de la roque" cannot be translated into English as having anything to do with castles. One wonders where this chap got this very strange idea. He should've listened to the locals.

On second thought he probably got the idea from the chess move of "castling"... again, an anglo mixes up everything to suit his purposes.

" "

Hi,

The locals in the immediate vicinity of RLC and La Vialasse including all the small hamlets in the area are generally small holding farmers, grazing cattle, cheese and small goods production. However, keep in mind that many of the farms are actually not viable entitys and are subsidised by the French Government.

There is some tourism, especially at RLC and more particularly at Rennes le Bain where there are hot spa springs dating back to the Roman Baths there. Many people come to the latter village for the heeling powers of the spa waters.

Castle Arque is a tourist destination as is Castle de Serres.

All of the people who live in La Vialasse are farmers, except for Le Moulin.

Hope that answers the last post.

Cheers

Colin Boucher

Thanks, Colin. That's interesting. Worth remembering that RLC and its environs contain many "ordinary" people doing "ordinary" occupations.

As far as the two castles are concerned, though, I always thought that Serres was privately owned. It has a satellite dish fixed to the wall! I've walked past, but never been in, so couldn't say for sure. Lovely arched bridge, though.

Couple of further thoughts, in the light of Jake's posting.

Just as Sauniere would have found on his arrival there a village that was a mere shadow of it's former glory, and containing a fraction of the inhabitants that would have lived there in centuries past, the area has been further de-populated since then, and the land would have been worked to a considerably greater extent in Sauniere's day. The view of the valley would have been quite different.

There is some light industry in nearby towns like Quillan and Espereza, but probably less than would have been the case previously. Not sure if they still make hats in Espereza, but I think that's where Marie's family worked.

As far as wine production is concerned, the area around RLC falls outside of the various surrounding appellations (Limoux, Corbieres, Minervois, etc.).

in relation to this landscape discussion: Have a look at old photos of the RLB area on my site here. One of the locals told me that at the time of Boudet there was a lot less forest and growth. Much of the land was used for growing the raw material for the Esperaza hat factory. (name of the stuff escapes me). Now I have spent days hiking through dense forest to try and piece together the Cromleck, where in Boudet's time it must have been easier to access these locations as you can see from the photo overlooking RLB and the surrounding hills.

Where we now sometimes get the impression that these people spent half a life identifying and describing odd shape rocks, hidden deep inside a forest, you might actually have seen them from a mile away in real life, a good example being the rouleurs (Trembling Rocks).

It's great to see some attention going out to what the area looked like back then. A lot of fables can be dismissed if you just look at the historical situation at the time.

Take care | Raven

Thanks for the great photos, Raven. Interesting point about the far less dense tree cover to certain parts back then - would have made for a much better view from the Devil's Armchair, which may help to explain why that particular item is where it is.

To answer Jake, the vast majority of commercial activity in the area of RLC is confined to agriculture, tourism and administrative work. The state subsidizes agriculture quite extravagantly, which is why parcels that would seem hardly viable are exploited fully.

As to the origins of the inhabitants of the villages, at this point I'd say it's roughly 50/50 genuine locals as opposed to more recent implants. Villages were progressively deserted from the 30s through the 60s, and then a reverse trend started slowly with many residences being rehabilitated as vacation homes or retirement homes.

The traditional pattern of the grand-parents remaining on the family land while the kids establish themselves in nearby cities (or even quite far away) is quite present here, and late Sundays are a horrible time to be on the road, as that's when families are on the road back from visiting the grand-parents after large meals washed down with copious libations.

There is some industry developing in the area, but it isn't very visible and it tends to be high-tech sort of stuff that doesn't require large industrial plants.

@ Richard: Exactly, that's also why winter is the best time to visit the area: few tourists and the view is a lot better. Doesn't mean that stuff is easy to find. If you're two metres from f.e. the Alcor stone you won't see it, even if it's two metres high. The shaft we filmed on Mount Cardou this year, you won't see when you're 10 inches away from it. The color of the stones blends into the backdrop very well indeed. Still, in winter you'll have no trouble seeing what the Devils Armchair is looking at.

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your reply.

Castle de Serres is where my daughter's wedding reception is being held and also Sunday lunch the next day.

The future father in law has arranged to set up a marquee in the grounds.

Yes...it is as I understand, privatelty owned. The owener is a friend of the owner of Le Moulin.

Many of the houses in the whole area are owned by expatriates...that's why when one visits the area...many of the houses are shuttered up and closed. This applies to Bugarach as well. Also Arque and some of the larger towns. Many farmhouses are also privately owned.

I seem to recall that hats are still made in Bugarach and Quizon.

There are also may lavendar farms in the area for the production of oils for soaps and beauty products...these are more recent industries.

I'll have a hunt around the whole area while I am there for two weeks later this month from the 20 th onwards...take some photos of interesting things to post.

When I was there last...on the road to Bugarach and a kilometre or so past La Vialasse, there was a circular thing in a field close to the road...in the shape of the stones of Stonehenge. Maybe some sort of pagan thing my friend implied.

I last noticed when I was there...many of the private buildings ahve a crucifix carved into the front door threshold step...interesting to say the least.

Cheers

Colin Boucher

What IS the Devil's Armchair looking at? Since it is really based on a similar shaped stone in the St. Baume grotto area, I'm curious as to what it's oriented to, as in what cardinal direction and what notable landmarks or locations. Even if nothing interesting is in that direction on the ground, there could very well be something interesting in the sky, such as a sunrise on a certain date (maybe July 22). Is there a clear view to a horizon from there?

..

Oh, you didn't know about this? From http://www.mythicjourneys.org/newslette ... nett2.html

JB - thanks for posting the article; I enjoyed reading it. However, am I the only person around here who thinks this looks nothing whatsoever like the Devil's Armchair?

..

Like I'm sure they were going to perfectly replicate the contours of the stone. It has a NATURAL chair-like shape. I can see why neither of you have ever solved anything about RLC. You actually have to have the capacity to detect subtle similarities. A big chair shaped rock in the RLC area, out in the middle of the woods by itself, and a big chair shaped rock in the area of a Mary Magdalene grotto, out in the middle of the woods by itself, both with a pointy part on the left side of the back? Naw, no possible connection there.