Arcadia Discussion Zone

Oh dear... if that's a Leonardo then it's got to be one of his earliest pieces. Incredibly amateurish, not Leonardo's color palette, depth, proportion and texture horrific, anatomy puerile. I'd be very surprised if it's older than 1800.

And yes, the litany of familiar buzzwords should make anyone suspicious. Isn't it funny how these "finds" always wind up falling by happenstance directly into the laps of people who already know exact details of their historical (or pseudo-historical) significance? What luck!

TCP

I agree TCP
what timing ....

waiting for the experts but the price tag is 150 million



Specifically, according to the Daily Mail, the painting:

1. Shares similarities to daVinci's child in "Madonna of the Rocks.

2. The woman's hairline is similar to those shown in "The Last Supper."
3. The fleur-de-lys is alleged to be the emblem of the secretive Priory of Sion of which daVinci was a member.
4. The woman's shoulder is unfinished, a commonality in da Vinci paintings.
5. A figural tracing in the "Last Supper" exactly matches outline of woman here.
6. The nude child's second toe is longer than the big toe -- another trademark sign of daVinci. Experts at the Hamilton Kerr Institute at the University of Cambridge are expected to date the work conclusively by next year. If experts authenticate it as a daVinci, the painting could be worth millions; daVinci paintings have previously reached as high as $150 million at auction, the U.K.'s Daily Mail reports.
http://crabbygolightly.com/mt/2012/08/is_this_painting_a_lost_davinc.html

Even if it's not a da Vinci original, the painting is believed to be at least from the da Vinci school, possibly created by a pupil in the 16th century,

Taken from Ms. McLaren's website, which describes these items as "Templar quaich(es)" which is entirely false. These are, of course, French tastevins - the name should be self-explanatory.

I don't have a good feeling about this woman.

TCP

Not buying it. Not for a minute. Sorry, no. This is crap.

TCP

I agree that everything is shouting "Wrong" about the author's interpretation of the painting and the clutch of commercial keywords for the book is deeply off-putting... I'd just like a closer look at the painting, the Bull (pun not intended, though feared) and to read some qualified art experts' opinions and observations. It does all sound like a simple case of very over-active imagination.
Why couldn't it have been some hoary old academic or someone with the apposite family connections like Rodge who owned such a potential treasure?

lets look at the experts supporting

Sebastian Thewes, an ex-director of Christie's in Scotland said he believed that da Vinci, considered the greatest human mind who has ever lived, had a hand in the painting.

Other experts have stated that the painting is at the very least from the da Vinci school.

Professor Carlo Pedretti from the University of California said he thought it was by a Leonardo da Vinci pupil of a later generation, possibly the 16th century.


The Pope decreed the Virgin Mary should be illustrated in blue whereas Mary Magdalene had to be shown in red attire, as depicted in this painting.

the carnation is a sign of Marriage


Florida University-based Michael E Abrams said the picture was 'brimming with sensuality' with the artist taking a tremendous risk of being burned at the stake for heresy after the Pope was re-established in Rome.

French expert Michel Fraisset said he thought the background was the mountain of St Victoire by the city of Aix-en-Provence

A papal bull – an order from the pope attached to the back of the painting is another significant feature of the painting and has been confirmed as belonging to Pope Paul V who was head of the Catholic Church in the early 17th century.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183987/The-lost-da-Vinci-Is-painting-Scottish-farmhouse-masters-lost-works.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Pope Paul V Bull is interesting
because he is the Pope who

Paul met with Galileo Galilei in 1616 after Cardinal Bellarmine had, on his orders, warned Galileo not to hold or defend the heliocentric ideas of Copernicus. Whether there was also an order not to teach those ideas in any way has been a matter for controversy. A letter from Bellarmine to Galileo, however, states only the injunction that the heliocentric ideas could not be defended or held; this letter was written expressly to enable Galileo to defend himself against rumors concerning what had happened in the meeting with Bellarmine.

Pope Paul V had no trouble employing
Baroque artist Agostino Tassi ...the rapist and possible murderer to paint for him
the artist enjoyed the patronage of several popes and cardinals, and he decorated the palazzi of several of the most powerful Roman families of his time. Often, he worked alongside other great painters, like Guercino, Domenichino, Giovanni Lanfranco as well as Poussin. Claudie Lorrain was his student.
http://intransit.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/baroque-bad-boy-exhibits-in-rome/

and Poussin seems came to Rome after Pope Paul V reign ended in 1621

He lived during the controversy of Galileo and the Vatican







Galileo's compass ....

La tete est calquee sur une toile de Da Vinci. C'est un faux, et un faux malhabile, en plus.

There are a few names dropped in this article, but no direct quotes. Rather unusual for experts consulted on something so potentially important to the art world not to go on record in their own words. Sounds to me like there's been some rather generous paraphrasing by Ms. McLaren provided to spice up the story.

This is the most telling bit for me, the clincher that tells me this is much ado about nothing:

Mr Robertson took the work to London for further testing by specialists on old masters and next year the painting will be closely inspected by experts at the Hamilton Kerr Institute at the University of Cambridge, where it should be dated conclusively.

"Next year"...? If anyone of any consequence in the art world had the slightest inkling that this piece might be an authentic Leonardo or the work of one of his pupils, they'd be all over this thing right now. Calendars would be cleared and current projects delayed to make room and focus all attention on this piece here and now.

I mean, come on - Carlo Pedretti? If he even thought this might be a piece from the School of Leonardo I can pretty much guarantee it would be at the Armand Hammer right now undergoing extensive analysis under Pedretti's direction and supervision, not "on hold" with art conservationists (?) who'll get around to looking at it some time next year.

Seriously, people...



That is such BS! More Starbird fallacious inventions to sustain weak claims!

Blessed Virgin Mary and her blue garments

Why does Mary always wear light blue?

Well, she doesn't.

"The older, classic and more representative color is dark blue," according to the Rev. Johann Roten, S.M, director of the Marian Library-International Marian Research Institute at the University of Dayton. "Mary's dark blue mantle, from about 500 A.D., is of Byzantine origin and is the color of an empress."

Blue has stayed in vogue, but red has also become a prominent color for Mary as represented by artists since the 10th century. Blue calls to mind the color of the skies (which is not only limited to light blue), and red is the color of kings, Roten says. "However, there are a great variety of blues and other colors for Mary," he says. "For example, Flemish painters prefer blue, while German painters have a preference for red."

Regarding Mary represented with a red mantle:

As to the red mantle worn by Our Lady -- this isn't so rare either. Rogier van der Weyden, Hans Memling, Lucas Cranach, Geertgen tot sin Jans, Jan van Eyck but also sometimes Eastern iconography (mosaic, Chora monastery, 14th c) shows Mary cloaked in a red mantle. True, the classical tradition shows her with a red robe and a blue mantle as for example almost all Raphael Madonnas and those inspired by Raphael (Nazarenes). The red color in iconography points (early on) to nobility and elevated state, and conveys sometimes in northern Renaissance, in particular, an anticipation of suffering and passion, especially when related to the devotion of the heart as seems to be the case with the Christ image.

Marian artist Beverly Stoller works from her "Theotokos" art studio in Fairfield, Conn. She says a recent interest in iconography has led her to discover a new color scheme for Mary, based on historical representation in icons. Icons of Mary often show her wearing a greenish-blue inner garment with a red outer garment, Stoller says.



Among other things, depending on the color. But in medieval and renaissance art it symbolizes the all-seeing eye of God. It is frequently seen in portraits of the Madonna and Child, there is nothing unusual or unique about it.



Michael E. Abrams of Florida A&M University teaches Journalism, has an avid interest in botany (with particular interest in botanical representations in art), and would appear to be a Da Vinci Code enthusiast. Not someone I would recommend as an art historian, with the possible exception of still life paintings of fruits and flowers.



It looks very much like the Montagne Sainte-Victoire. How that somehow makes this painting an authentic Leonardo seems vague.



Given that the first word on the document (with the scrollwork capital) does not read "PAVLVS" I'd consign that erroneous detail to the dustbin of wishful thinking. You've never seen an actual Papal bull, have you Lov? You're in good company, I'll give you that much.

TCP

S'il s'agissait en effet de la montagne de Ste Victoire, ce serait encore un preuve de plus que c'est un faux.

The head is modeled on a backdrop of Da Vinci. It is a false, and a false clumsy, and more.

from the article
A tracing of the figure in the Last Supper matches exactly the outline of the woman in this painting,



his Virgin of the Rocks

So says the article. Try putting the head from the painting next to the head in The Last Suppoer for comparison.

TCP

Indications of a da Vinci:
1. A similarity between the boy and child in his famous piece Madonna of the Rocks,
2. A distinctive 'v' shape in the middle of the woman's hairline reminiscent of that shown in the last supper,
3. The fleur-de-lys is often said to be a hidden emblem of the secretive Priory of Sion,
4. The area by the woman's shoulder is unfinished, common in da Vinci works,
5. A tracing of the figure in the Last Supper matches exactly the outline of the woman in this painting,
6. The baby's second toe is longer than the big toe - another classic da Vinci feature

(They say that the key to a Da Vinci is in the hair, she does have rather Da Vinci-esque hair.)

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z22uIub3lS




The bull on the back.

Nope TCP
I can give you a picture of one
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sacred_destinations/2539149340/lightbox/

this is
Detail of a papal bull from Pope Alexander III, dated 1168 and granting Fontenay Abbey its rights and possessions

I'm not good at photoshop Sorry
but hey the tilt of the head is kinda like each of them

I saw Mona lisa's grave may have been found
http://www.newser.com/story/150402/mona-lisas-bones-unearthed.html

Experts on Tuesday unearthed an intact skeleton beneath the floor of a former convent in Florence, and say this one could indeed belong to Lisa Gherardini.

Mandatory equipment for Templar sommeliers.

Father Silence

Which pope was that again? I've often heard of this list of iron clad Vatican rules for painting Jesus' Mother but so far none has been produced.

There is an old legend that when Jesus was crucified his mother's tears turned into pink carnations. The baby Jesus is often shown holding or reaching for symbols of the crucifixion like nails, thorns , etc.

I have a couple of quiestions about this:

1) If this piece of papaer is completely undecipherable execpt for the word Magdalene (maybe) then how can it be confirmed as a papal bull by Paul V?

2) If this is a papal bull, how does that make this more likely to be a genuine Leonardo than if it didn't? Did any of his other paintings have bulls attached? Have you ever heard of a bull posted on back of a painting? Who is meant to read it in that location?

Also, Mary and Elizabeth are supposed to have been sisters, not cousins.

FS

Hi FS...long time no see....I believe that Mary and Elizabeth were cousins, not sisters..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_%28Biblical_person%29

About this so called 'lost Leonardo' painting having a Papal Bull apparently written by Pope Paul V on the back...I dont understand how this can be related to the painting..Leonardo lived 1452 to 1519..Paul V lived 1552 to 1621. Rather a stretch to make any connections between the two, don't ya think?

Shasta

I stand corrected.

FS

Yes, detail from the bottom of the document that unfortunately doesn't show the intitulatio, or preamble starting with the Pope's name in Latin.

Here are a few examples:



Urban VIII, 1687



Celestine III, 1197



Innocent III, 1216



Alexander III, 1175



Nicolas V, 1451



Benedict XIII, 1413



Innocent VIII, 1488

And from more recent times:



Pius IX, 1930



Benedict XVI, 2010

Papal bulla follow a proscribed formula:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_bull

"A bull's format began with one line in tall elongated letters containing three elements: the Pope's name, the Papal title episcopus servus servorum Dei, meaning 'bishop, servant of the servants of God', and the few Latin words that constituted the incipit from which the bull would also take its name for record keeping purposes, but which might not be directly indicative of the bull's purpose."

Sorry, Lov, but the piece of paper sticking out of the back of the frame on that painting is no bull.

TCP

After spending some time trying to understand the difference between a Quaich and a Tastevin, I have concluded that TCP is probably right...the pictures (scroll above) are tastevins....as quaishes are described having two handles, not one...

This is a Quaich

It is a special kind of shallow two-handled drinking cup or bowl in Scotland. It derives from the Scottish Gaelic cuach meaning a cup, it is pronounced as 'quake'..

According to the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, the quaich was inspired by the low silver bowls with two flat handles frequently used as bleeding vessels in England and the Netherlands in the 17th century. Another popular theory suggests that the shape is derived from scallop shells.
[url]
http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/blknow_quaich.htm[/url]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaich


And this is a tastevin (wine taster)

A tastevin is a small, very shallow silver cup or saucer traditionally used by winemakers and sommeliers when judging the maturity and taste of a wine. The saucer-like cups were originally created by Burgundian winemakers to enable them to judge the clarity and color of wine that was stored in dim, candle-lit wine cellars. Regular wine glasses were too deep to allow for accurate judging of the wine's color in such faint light. Tastevin are designed with a shiny faceted inner surface. Often, the bottom of the cup is convex in shape. The facets, convex bottom, and the shiny inner surface catch as much available light as possible, reflecting it throughout the wine in the cup, making it possible to see through the wine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tastevin#Tastevin

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5139094

Many additional examples of both are available on search ...

Well that is interesting isn't Shasta
Pope Paul V
was an interesting fello in the fact Galileo was instructed not to talk about the Earth revolving around the sun

I wrote an article about the artists of the day seem to have an interesting view of the Holy Family
Rafael for an example

and yes the Madonna is dressed in red

Everyone has halos even the baby looking at them ...lots of speculation on who the baby is

Only among those who cannot accept the obvious and who project their irrational religious needs onto the great masters of art history.

TCP

Care to place your article here? Or send it to me...I would enjoy reading it..
Shasta

Discovered by the employees of the Prado Museum in Spain, a copy by a student painted

alongside the original. Tests revealed a background underneath the black lacquer which was removed.

Thought to reveal what the model actually looked like. Feb. 2, 2012.



"In 1472, Leonardo became a member of the Company of Saint Luke’s, the painters’ guild of Florence. As a member Leonardo could get work as an artist. Although he was no longer an apprentice, Leonardo studied in Verrocchio’s workshop for about four more years. When he was in his early twenties, Leonardo helped paint Verrocchio’s Baptism of Christ. The painting shows John the Baptist baptizing Jesus while two angels kneel beside them. Leonardo’s job was to paint one of the angels and some of the mountains and plants.

Leonardo’s angel looks full of life. Many people believe that the other figures in the painting look stiff compared to Leonardo’s graceful angel."

Leonardo`s angel is the one on the left, his first portrait. We see that his style has always been refined - there were no early primitive pieces.