Crista Controversy?

Thomas D. · **Posted:** 10 Jul 2012 7:58 pm

Crow wrote:

Thomas D. wrote:

Quote:

Quote:

roger wrote:
Sandy is 100% correct in that I was first made aware of the crista connection to RLC (not of its existence, I'm quite well versed on that topic) by Isaac. I have to say (or rather, repeat yet again) that I always thought it was a dangerous and shameful subject. I simply decided to try to preempt the foreseeable disinformation and misinterpretations when I found out that much of the information would soon become public. I did so simply by giving out enough information for those who had an interest to pick up the trail on their own, and so they did. I then became aware that the planned dissemination of a mixture of true historic information with a large portion of delirious esotericophilia was being canceled for a number of reasons. Consequently, I saw absolutely no need to continue discussing the topic, particularly considering the manner in which certain people seemed to believe that I was obligated to educate them (not to mention the threats and other antagonistic behaviour behind the scenes) rather than simply provide sufficient clues for them to educate themselves, as I had made very plain would be the limit of my involvement.

Crow,
Would we be correct in assuming that the cancellation mentioned above was something IBJ was working on ?
Is this a fair description of the piece?
In your view was 'Roger's ' involvement merely to prevent IBJ's work from reaching the public?

TD

Yes, Isaac was working on something. Roger made it almost impossible for Isaac to release any work on this subject without his authorisation. The piece Isaac was working on (and still is) doesn't contain any fanciful references. It is an academic work.

So, would it be fair to say that far from acting as a collaborator on the project 'Roger' turned into a Censor to try and prevent it from reaching the public domain ?

TD

Crow · **Posted:** 10 Jul 2012 8:03 pm

Crimson_Ghost wrote:

Hi Crow, if you don`t mind I have a few questions for Isaac and (or) yourself. Did in fact Isaac approach Roger asking for help involving archival information for his research? Was Roger ever an adviser for Isaac?

Roger didn't help with research, archival or otherwise, as the research was already complete. Roger helped with the book promotion for 'The Rise' as Isaac at that time spoke no English.

jlockest wrote:

Crow,
Why would IBJ need Roger's authorisation and on what?

Roger made it difficult for him due to his poor command of English, stalling him and generally dictating what he felt people should know. Isaac had already founded a small research group previously (some of its members are on Arcadia) and shared the first half of his new book with them for private discussion. Roger then decided under his own authority to use some of the information it contained. As to his motives, one can only speculate.

If you have further questions on this or any other matter please either email Isaac directly or contact him via his forum. Thanks guys.

Crimson_Ghost · **Posted:** 10 Jul 2012 8:31 pm

Crow wrote:

Crimson_Ghost wrote:

Hi Crow, if you don`t mind I have a few questions for Isaac and (or) yourself. Did in fact Isaac approach Roger asking for help involving archival information for his research? Was Roger ever an adviser for Isaac?

Roger didn't help with research, archival or otherwise, as the research was already complete. Roger helped with the book promotion for 'The Rise' as Isaac at that time spoke no English.

jlockest wrote:

Crow,
Why would IBJ need Roger's authorisation and on what?

Roger made it difficult for him due to his poor command of English, stalling him and generally dictating what he felt people should know. Isaac had already founded a small research group previously (some of its members are on Arcadia) and shared the first half of his new book with them for private discussion. Roger then decided under his own authority to use some of the information it contained. As to his motives, one can only speculate.

If you have further questions on this or any other matter please either email Isaac directly or contact him via his forum. Thanks guys.

Well, thank you Crow.

Crimson_Ghost · **Posted:** 10 Jul 2012 8:47 pm

Crow wrote:

Crimson_Ghost wrote:

Hi Crow, if you don`t mind I have a few questions for Isaac and (or) yourself. Did in fact Isaac approach Roger asking for help involving archival information for his research? Was Roger ever an adviser for Isaac?

Roger didn't help with research, archival or otherwise, as the research was already complete. Roger helped with the book promotion for 'The Rise' as Isaac at that time spoke no English.

This interesting news. This was a pm from Roger May 02, 2010. I don`t recall my exact question to him, but it was along the lines of, What makes you so damn high and mighty, claiming you know the answer to the mystery of RlC. His reply was.

Quote:

Because of who I am, my family, etc... A group of researchers contacted me to inquire about some archival information... In the process, they revealed their theories and research which - at first - I laughed off as somewhat bizarre.

Then, with the knowledge of what to look for, I was able to reconstruct and confirm their research and - in fact - expand upon it considerably.

So... I can't take credit for "solving" the enigma, merely for taking the time and effort to confirm things for myself.

So yes, saving those old PM`s is a good idea.

Thomas D. · **Posted:** 10 Jul 2012 9:09 pm

Crimson_Ghost wrote:

Crow wrote:

Crimson_Ghost wrote:

Hi Crow, if you don`t mind I have a few questions for Isaac and (or) yourself. Did in fact Isaac approach Roger asking for help involving archival information for his research? Was Roger ever an adviser for Isaac?

Roger didn't help with research, archival or otherwise, as the research was already complete. Roger helped with the book promotion for 'The Rise' as Isaac at that time spoke no English.

This interesting news. This was a pm from Roger May 02, 2010. I don`t recall my exact question to him, but it was along the lines of, What makes you so damn high and mighty, claiming you know the answer to the mystery of RlC. His reply was.

Quote:

Because of who I am, my family, etc... A group of researchers contacted me to inquire about some archival information... In the process, they revealed their theories and research which - at first - I laughed off as somewhat bizarre.

Then, with the knowledge of what to look for, I was able to reconstruct and confirm their research and - in fact - expand upon it considerably.

So... I can't take credit for "solving" the enigma, merely for taking the time and effort to confirm things for myself.

So yes, saving those old PM`s is a good idea.

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away".

tingra · **Posted:** 10 Jul 2012 9:17 pm

Crimson_Ghost wrote:

Quote:

Because of who I am, my family, etc... A group of researchers contacted me to inquire about some archival information... In the process, they revealed their theories and research which - at first - I laughed off as somewhat bizarre.

Then, with the knowledge of what to look for, I was able to reconstruct and confirm their research and - in fact - expand upon it considerably.

So... I can't take credit for "solving" the enigma, merely for taking the time and effort to confirm things for myself.

So yes, saving those old PM`s is a good idea.

That's a great find CG

you have confirmed what he has said all along

Thomas D. · **Posted:** 10 Jul 2012 9:26 pm

tingra wrote:

Crimson_Ghost wrote:

Quote:

Because of who I am, my family, etc... A group of researchers contacted me to inquire about some archival information... In the process, they revealed their theories and research which - at first - I laughed off as somewhat bizarre.

Then, with the knowledge of what to look for, I was able to reconstruct and confirm their research and - in fact - expand upon it considerably.

So... I can't take credit for "solving" the enigma, merely for taking the time and effort to confirm things for myself.

So yes, saving those old PM`s is a good idea.

That's a great find CG

you have confirmed what he has said all along

Really?
Thats how you read it ?
:lol:

Keep it up He's still on the front page!
So, is this your real aim, to finally 'out' him and make it look like its someone else's fault?
Loving your work!

TD :lol:

Thomas D. · **Posted:** 10 Jul 2012 9:39 pm

That's the problem with drinking and Posting Tingra.
It slows your reaction time !
Too slow on the delete button !
Best take the 'eloquent advice' we can finish the job from here!
With friends like you he sure doesn't need [more] enemies!
Ciao!
TD :lol:

Crimson_Ghost · **Posted:** 10 Jul 2012 10:04 pm

tingra wrote:

Crimson_Ghost wrote:

Quote:

Because of who I am, my family, etc... A group of researchers contacted me to inquire about some archival information... In the process, they revealed their theories and research which - at first - I laughed off as somewhat bizarre.

Then, with the knowledge of what to look for, I was able to reconstruct and confirm their research and - in fact - expand upon it considerably.

So... I can't take credit for "solving" the enigma, merely for taking the time and effort to confirm things for myself.

So yes, saving those old PM`s is a good idea.

That's a great find CG

you have confirmed what he has said all along

Yes, your right sort of. So now we have two different stories. According to Roger he was contacted by Isaac`s research group to lend a helpful hand with the research. Crow say`s Roger did not help with Isaac`s research, the research was complete and he was involved with the book promotion. Crow also stated Roger knew nothing of the Crista story until Isaac shared his research with him. In his PM to myself, it seems pretty clear he thought the idea was crazy, until he looked into himself. Which brings up TD`s quote from Roger to Sandy, saying he didn`t realize the RlC connection until IBJ showed him, but was well versed on the Crista for some time.

Now if we are to believe Crow, Roger is full of shit and an outright liar. And had absolutely zero knowledge of a Crista prior to meeting Isaac. If we believe Roger, Isaac is mixing fact and fantasy to "sex" up the story. And Roger was only trying to show us the true story. It sure sounds like someones lying, wonder who :?:

Renne · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 1:28 am

How did Isaac know about Roger in order to contact him? Roger is such an elusive fellow,

he was such a tease during all of this.

Sheila · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 7:51 am

crow wrote:

Roger didn't help with research, archival or otherwise, as the research was already complete

hmm...that is not actually correct.

CG wrote:

Crow also stated Roger knew nothing of the Crista story until Isaac shared his research with him

ah, not correct either....it was the Rennes-le-Château connection that was news to him.

Quote:

If we believe Roger, Isaac is mixing fact and fantasy to "sex" up the story. And Roger was only trying to show us the true story. It sure sounds like someones lying,

and this is basically the crux of the matter...we have historical research versus a theological viewpoint...i believe the reality and implications of this subject-matter vary considerably depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

Unfortunately for this forum there are a few individuals here that are fanning the flames of a personal research dispute.... and by their modus operandi and ignorance seem quite happy to drive a wedge right through the middle of this forum and peoples lives, just for their own amusement.

Thomas D. · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 8:09 am

Sheila wrote:

crow wrote:

Roger didn't help with research, archival or otherwise, as the research was already complete

hmm...that is not actually correct.

CG wrote:

Crow also stated Roger knew nothing of the Crista story until Isaac shared his research with him

ah, not correct either....it was the Rennes-le-Château connection that was news to him.

Quote:

If we believe Roger, Isaac is mixing fact and fantasy to "sex" up the story. And Roger was only trying to show us the true story. It sure sounds like someones lying,

and this is basically the crux of the matter...we have historical research versus a theological viewpoint...i believe the reality and implications of this subject-matter vary considerably depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

Unfortunately for this forum there are a few individuals here that are fanning the flames of a personal research dispute.... and by their modus operandi and ignorance seem quite happy to drive a wedge right through the middle of this forum and peoples lives, just for their own amusement.

Is this a rebuttal piece on behalf of Roger, Sheila or is the usual IMHO missing ?
Has he sanctioned this statement?

Who are you referring to, BTW ?

TD

Sheila · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 8:42 am

The facts above are not written on behalf of anyone or sanctioned by anybody it's just the way it is.

for example; if you stand outside in the rain getting wet, would you say "in my humble opinion it's raining" ?...i think most people would say "it's raining"....well i would anyway, you might beg to differ, but that is the fundamental difference between us TD.

Thomas D. · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 8:54 am

Sheila wrote:

The facts above are not written on behalf of anyone or sanctioned by anybody it's just the way it is.

for example; if you stand outside in the rain getting wet, would you say "in my humble opinion it's raining" ?...i think most people would say "it's raining"....well i would anyway, you might beg to differ, but that is the fundamental difference between us TD.

As far as I can see Sheila in your post there are no FACTS merely opinions and interpretations.
Now, you are as entitled as any one else to express those and to be heard but unless you are making those comments about another's behavior or intentions under his/her explicit direction they remain only your opinions and interpretations and, as such cannot be accorded the status of 'FACTS'.

As facts are demonstrably provable feel free to share with us the proofs of what you contend.
Given the current state of affairs even if you told me it WAS raining I might just take a peek outside to check before believing you !

TD :lol:

Sheila · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 9:03 am

Well Thomas, i'll leave you to your gossip and innuendos then, i've said my bit.

i seem to be far too straightforward for you to deal with... but.... in my humble opinion obviously, it's a sad state of affairs when there is not enough trust, discretion and loyalty in today's world.

Thomas D. · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 9:25 am

Sheila wrote:

.................. it's a sad state of affairs when there is not enough trust, discretion and loyalty in today's world.

Amen to that! :cry:

It's so sad to see people who mislead and manipulate. Those who dress opinion as 'facts' designed to
push an agenda.

TD

Crow · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 10:35 am

I don't see anything even remotely amusing here. And considering i quoted from my Husband cannot be accused of ignorance. Using someone elses research and passing it off as their own tends to elicit high emotions Sheila. So does leaking information contained within it without authority. May i also take the opportunity to stress that the first half of the book shared for personal discussion within the research group remains the copyright of Isaac Ben Jacob. Copying, quoting from, or disseminating from it will land those that do in legal hot water. And i doubt that Roger can afford another court case.

Sheila · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 11:32 am

Sheila wrote:

Unfortunately for this forum there are a few individuals here that are fanning the flames of a personal research dispute.... and by their modus operandi and ignorance seem quite happy to drive a wedge right through the middle of this forum and peoples lives, just for their own amusement.

eh 'scuse me a moment ....why on earth do you think i was referning to you...i wasn't....i don't have a problem with your husband, let's just get that straight before you start going off half-cocked.

Crimson_Ghost · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 11:36 am

Sheila wrote:

hmm...that is not actually correct.

Quote:

If we believe Roger, Isaac is mixing fact and fantasy to "sex" up the story. And Roger was only trying to show us the true story. It sure sounds like someones lying,

and this is basically the crux of the matter...we have historical research versus a theological viewpoint...i believe the reality and implications of this subject-matter vary considerably depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

Hi Sheila, all in all are you basically trying to say, Rogers only true intention to the best of your knowledge, was in fact to introduce this relic from a pure historical view point. Which according to historical references can be traced back only to Constantine receiving it near the Lendit Plain from the local tribes. Any associations pre-Constantine, therefore would be only speculation.

Sheila · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 11:53 am

don't try to second guess....just read my post, there is nothing complicated in it.

Crimson_Ghost · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 12:13 pm

Sheila wrote:

don't try to second guess....just read my post, there is nothing complicated in it.

Oh I read it several times, and since we don`t need tempers to flare up, I`ll just leave it be.

TCP · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 2:23 pm

Crow wrote:

I don't see anything even remotely amusing here. And considering i quoted from my Husband cannot be accused of ignorance. Using someone elses research and passing it off as their own tends to elicit high emotions Sheila. So does leaking information contained within it without authority. May i also take the opportunity to stress that the first half of the book shared for personal discussion within the research group remains the copyright of Isaac Ben Jacob. Copying, quoting from, or disseminating from it will land those that do in legal hot water. And i doubt that Roger can afford another court case.

Crow, Roger's explanation to me of his role matches your description, and for that I am not reliant on PMs long ago deleted to make room in a very small inbox, but on off-list e-mails (and I save everything). Should litigation become necessary in the future I would be happy to make what I have available to you.

IMHO there appears to be a discernible difference between those who Roger knew he could manipulate for his own amusement and those he thought would likewise be amused. I'll admit I found it somewhat amusing while he stayed on my good side. I asked him point-blank at one point if he wanted me to back off with my criticism, and he told me no, not at all. I'm sure at that point he had no intention of being left hanging himself, so his notable absence (as Roger) and the complete eradication of his "testament" here is not surprising when viewed in full context.

TCP

Crow · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 4:07 pm

TCP wrote:

Crow wrote:

I don't see anything even remotely amusing here. And considering i quoted from my Husband cannot be accused of ignorance. Using someone elses research and passing it off as their own tends to elicit high emotions Sheila. So does leaking information contained within it without authority. May i also take the opportunity to stress that the first half of the book shared for personal discussion within the research group remains the copyright of Isaac Ben Jacob. Copying, quoting from, or disseminating from it will land those that do in legal hot water. And i doubt that Roger can afford another court case.

Crow, Roger's explanation to me of his role matches your description, and for that I am not reliant on PMs long ago deleted to make room in a very small inbox, but on off-list e-mails (and I save everything). Should litigation become necessary in the future I would be happy to make what I have available to you.

IMHO there appears to be a discernible difference between those who Roger knew he could manipulate for his own amusement and those he thought would likewise be amused. I'll admit I found it somewhat amusing while he stayed on my good side. I asked him point-blank at one point if he wanted me to back off with my criticism, and he told me no, not at all. I'm sure at that point he had no intention of being left hanging himself, so his notable absence (as Roger) and the complete eradication of his "testament" here is not surprising when viewed in full context.

TCP

Thank you TCP, we would be very grateful for this. We would certainly be interested in seeing those in the event of any legal action, no doubt they'll make interesting reading.

Thanks once again.

tingra · **Posted:** 11 Jul 2012 4:35 pm

TCP wrote:

Crow wrote:

I don't see anything even remotely amusing here. And considering i quoted from my Husband cannot be accused of ignorance. Using someone elses research and passing it off as their own tends to elicit high emotions Sheila. So does leaking information contained within it without authority. May i also take the opportunity to stress that the first half of the book shared for personal discussion within the research group remains the copyright of Isaac Ben Jacob. Copying, quoting from, or disseminating from it will land those that do in legal hot water. And i doubt that Roger can afford another court case.

Crow, Roger's explanation to me of his role matches your description, and for that I am not reliant on PMs long ago deleted to make room in a very small inbox, but on off-list e-mails (and I save everything). Should litigation become necessary in the future I would be happy to make what I have available to you.

IMHO there appears to be a discernible difference between those who Roger knew he could manipulate for his own amusement and those he thought would likewise be amused. I'll admit I found it somewhat amusing while he stayed on my good side. I asked him point-blank at one point if he wanted me to back off with my criticism, and he told me no, not at all. I'm sure at that point he had no intention of being left hanging himself, so his notable absence (as Roger) and the complete eradication of his "testament" here is not surprising when viewed in full context.

TCP

Tell me Tim, what happens to those that get on your bad side? :shock:

Tertius · **Joined:** 12 Sep 2011 11:17 pm **Posts:** 412

Franchement, c'est le genre de truc qui ne s'invente pas!

(soit dit en passant, c'est un excellent film, un classique)

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